Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Well, after owning this male kingsnake (striped albino) for three or four years, he laid an egg! It's a miracle!! Well, maybe not....but it is clear that he is a she and we can no longer call him Elvis. What's funny is when I bought the snake, I bought it as an adult male that had "sired several clutches". It was my first snake and I hadn't really planned to breed snakes anyway, so I didn't really care what sex the snake was...just that I thought it looked cool.

I have no idea why he would have laid an egg, I have 12 other snakes, but no kingsnakes and none that have been housed with her, but she found a way none the less. We went ahead and took her to our snake vet to make sure she wasn't impacted, because the first egg was a little hard and she still has some left to lay.....and we were still in denial that our boy was a girl.

Well, too my point, we've decided to go ahead and get an adult male, or at least one that can breed with her when she is ready. I know a ton about Ball Python breeding and the various morphs and designer morphs, but I don't really know much about kingsnake breeding. I can look up the breeding care sheets and all that good stuff, but I am at a loss as to what kind of mate I should get.

There are so many cool looking kings out there, but I don't know what breeding them with my striped king will produce.

albinism in kingsnakes is the same as albinism in pet rocks...ahem ball pythons.

The pattern aspect is polygenic and not fully understood. You will likely get a variety of patterns no matter what morph or pattern you pair with.

I dunno if I like the sound of Ball Python bashing around here... I know its the kingsnake forum and all, but come on... lol...
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~Maggie~

"Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious."
1.1 Cal Kings (Spot and Fry)
1.0 Florida King (Gamble)
1.0 Ball Python (Mitch)
0.1 Red Belly Piranha (Fluffy)
1.0 Australian Shepherd (Spooky)
1.0 Springer Spaniel/Beagle mix (Snoopy)
0.1 Cat (Ecco)

I don't think its really bashing Ball Pythons. I used to get imports in the 500 lot and I aleays thought they are rather boring snakes.

Rope snake used by Fish & Game in Calif as a decoy lure:

Can you tell the difference?

I was just bein smart... I really like my ball, but you're right, they are kind boring... He never does anything but eat, poop, and hide... Oh, and looking over my shoulder at him, he might have shed today....
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~Maggie~

"Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious."
1.1 Cal Kings (Spot and Fry)
1.0 Florida King (Gamble)
1.0 Ball Python (Mitch)
0.1 Red Belly Piranha (Fluffy)
1.0 Australian Shepherd (Spooky)
1.0 Springer Spaniel/Beagle mix (Snoopy)
0.1 Cat (Ecco)

shedding........the peak of excitement for a ball. J/K, but the way you worded that last bit actually made me laugh out loud.

This may be a dumb question, but what subspecies is the kingsnake? A male of the same subspecies would seem like the obvious choice.....preferably also a striped albino if you desire to produce more of those.

p.s (to everyone): striped abinos are Cal Kings right?
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1.0.0 Lampropeltis getula holbrooki
0.1.0 Lampropeltis getula californae
0.0.1 Lampropeltis getula nigra
1.0.0 Lampropeltis mexicana thayeri
2.3.0 Eublapharis macularius macularius
0.0.2 Rhacodactylus ciliatus
0.1.0 Gerrhosaurus major major

Yup, he shed... That means he moved today, so thats a plus...

Which kingsnake are you asking about? I have 3, a desert phase cali, and albino cali, and a sulfur lavendar florida...
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~Maggie~

"Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious."
1.1 Cal Kings (Spot and Fry)
1.0 Florida King (Gamble)
1.0 Ball Python (Mitch)
0.1 Red Belly Piranha (Fluffy)
1.0 Australian Shepherd (Spooky)
1.0 Springer Spaniel/Beagle mix (Snoopy)
0.1 Cat (Ecco)

Oh, sorry. That bit was directed toward bcisco (thread starter).
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1.0.0 Lampropeltis getula holbrooki
0.1.0 Lampropeltis getula californae
0.0.1 Lampropeltis getula nigra
1.0.0 Lampropeltis mexicana thayeri
2.3.0 Eublapharis macularius macularius
0.0.2 Rhacodactylus ciliatus
0.1.0 Gerrhosaurus major major

ok, that explains my confusion, thanks for clarifying...
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~Maggie~

"Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious."
1.1 Cal Kings (Spot and Fry)
1.0 Florida King (Gamble)
1.0 Ball Python (Mitch)
0.1 Red Belly Piranha (Fluffy)
1.0 Australian Shepherd (Spooky)
1.0 Springer Spaniel/Beagle mix (Snoopy)
0.1 Cat (Ecco)

To answer your question, I don't really know much more about my king that it is albino, it is white with the yellowish solid stripe down it's back (so that would make it black with a white stripe if it weren't for being albino) and now....that it is a female.

I knew something was up with her when shedidn't take food for two weeks in a row for the first time in the five years that I've owned her. I've always joked that he eats every time....without failure....I guess not when he is a she and she is has eggs in her.

kings= $feed bill

balls = $$$

....math,.......and pet rocks strike faster than a king...yet hold on less.....

LOL
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..J Yohe ....

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kings= $feed bill

balls = $$$

That is what I keep hearing from people who invested in Balls and promise they are the road to financial freeedom. Matter of fact they even had such a symposium at the Daytona Reptile expo a few years ago. Reminded me of one of those pyrarmid schemes where the speakers (who were the top BP breeders) promising investment returns and doing the math right there on an overhead projector. Pyramid schemes now come in so many forms that they may be difficult to recognize immediately. However, they all share one overriding characteristic. They promise consumers or investors large profits based primarily on recruiting others to join based on investment returns.

I think the Ball Python reccessive traits might bring enough money back for some to get their money back. But for the most part i hear it is about trading and not a whole lot of folks will get their money out of them. Remember there is a reccession AND there are people who have hundreds of hets . The prices on those will have to come crashing down when it only takes one breeder who trys to get his returns back in a hurry.

I beleive that Florida king morphs along with the scaleless cornsnakes, pied Cornsnakes and Hognose morphs will bring more attention back to the colubrid market. Several years ago breeders sold their colubrid collections to purchase Ball Python morphs in hopes to make a big profit. Now customers discovered Ball Pythons morphs consist mostly of codominant traits and can't get the returns on their investments they anticipated. Maybe they will come back to their first "true" love. Colubrids!

I agree with a lot of what you said but I was paying attention in my Heineken induced state enough to hear that speaker saying breeders should not expect a big return until SEVEN years into the whole being a breeder thing.
This is the thing people do not understand. Too many people bought into the idea of making a ton of money in TWO-THREE years. The stories of small young males being very strong breeders got people all fired up. Also talk of how easy they are to breed. I think I am pretty good at producing colubrids consistently but I stink at breeding Pythons.
Lets not forget that incubation is a lot harder and less forgiving than it is with colubrids too.
I have gone into projects knowing that I was not in on the ground floor and that pricing was still high and on some I did awesome and others I didnt [colubrids that is]. I just think colubrids are a much safer bet and a cheap operation to run. People want to talk about the food bill of a colony of Kings yet they will spend 10 grand on one snake?
Even look at Het Ball Pythons. How many eggs should you expect? 5-6? I have heard plenty of people who bought hets and got a few babies and NO MORPHS. Not half as likely with colubrids with clutches of 6-26.
For me, the truth is if I invested in the Ball Pythons instead of the colubrids [and I did have the money] I'd have most likely done terrible. Glad I didnt. I do have friends that have done great with the Pythons and still have faith in it to this day.
Remember the words of Rick from Renegade Rainer.....in a few years you will walk into pet shops and see a tank full of Ball Python morphs with a sign that says pick any morph $100.
I think he was right...its only a matter of time.
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Good insight !

100$ morphs are here now...

balls are as easy to breed as corns...whatcha doing wrong?..the only difference is 90 degree incubation and not 83....??really bro...

and balls lay 10 eggs if you feed them ....trick is to get them as soon out of egg as you can before the other person screws them up by "maintenance" feeding them and not "growth" feeding them....they start better if they're from good stock and from your own stock

anyways......back to kings...I love kings....I love milks...I would like to own a trio of every snake out there....can't happen...but I did pick up more milks this week....I look at eastern kings alot....good old fashioned B/W cal kings are hard to beat....and splendita...with black heads and lots of pattern of bright yellow....aaaaah....(my friend is buying kings...I can look at his for now)...

......now I want a king....hahahaaaaa.....
(I own knobs,pyro,do they count...LOL)
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..J Yohe ....

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I absolutely disagree, Balls are not as easy as Corns.
And incubation is not half as forgiving. Too wet or too dry usually means you will lose some or all of the clutch.
I have heard stories from people who have done extremely well with Pythons about some snakes that simply show no interest in breeding. One I can think of literally cost that owner 10 grand and that morph is now $300.
I have produced a few Pythons, and I have produced quite a lot of colubrids for someone who has only been breeding for about 8 years. Some Pythons can be very picky feeders and that is also a royal pain. My Ball Pythons will never take f/t though a friend who sold them to me swore they did for him and I can believe it. Like I said I admit they're just not for me. I bought one of the DVDs and found it extremely interesting and helpful but it seems like Pythons for me are a major hassle in the sense ALL my colubrids thrive under the temps I can easily give them year round. The Pythons were not set up as ideally.
I have a friend who is one of the largest breeders I can think of who still insists Balls can be very profitable. I do not think he is lying, not at all. But in a saturated market with people who no one is familiar with....well those guys may produce nice babies from killer stock but chances are they may not get much money and often have a hard time selling them.
I will admit I see this in colubrids too. One point I try n send home to aspiring breeders is that you need to participate on forums like this, show off your stock, and show people you are smart and care about the animals. Keeping your breeders to yourself and not participating may hurt in the sense that your snakes may be killer, but having no one out there to have your back and tell people you do have great animals may mean you will have them much longer than you had hoped too.
I am not anti Ball python, but things have changed dramatically over the past 5 years and that whole trend seemed to bury itself and a lot of people who got in late did not fare well at all. I am sure some of the people who really took it seriously are doing just fine. I wish everyone the best of luck really...
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

balls can be the biggest pain in the butt known to mankind...so can kings and corns and milks can be worse.......

I heat the room....same kinda temps all year...I use light cycle that's like 2 hours more in summer than in winter......I have kings,corns,milks,balls, all in racks...no belly heat on all but 16 balls .....and they all do fine....some balls have normal temps of 80 and less all year long......they may not like it all the time...but the ones with heat and at the top ,roll around the water bowl and in it due to being too hot also......anyways.....they almost all do well here....and yes the pain ones I either get rid of ,give away, or just live with it and it's there problem.....

the eggs can take alot......I kill house snake eggs over half the time...they cannot take any moisture I am thinking.....ball eggs I used to (not anymore) open Hova-Bator and just dump water on top of them all the time...they did better then than they do now at times......yes they can be killed ,they are not invincible.....ball eggs are really tough....look at the people in Africa that dig them up, stuff them in cloth bags, then take them to a shed and bury them in dirt by the thousands...they are rolled and carried and still hatch....half dried out even....
....
........just trying to help you out...and give you more of a OH YEA kinda "you CAN do it" feeling here....

.........feed the snot outta balls for months then don't worry about it if they stop......when they eat they eat, and no, mine do not eat frozen here.....my friends' do......he started them on frozen rats soon as he could and they eat them usually, but again, not all year.......

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..J Yohe ....

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Well almost any snake will do well fed on live mice because they will eat almost everytime. Having to provide a weekly supply of live mice for their snakes is not for everyone. So just the feeding alone is difficult enough.

You gotta remember the time that Ball pythons were the rock bottom garter snake of the world. I would never have guessed this snake (pet rock) would have done as well as it has. I still can't figure it out.

That's cool, I didn't think anything bad of your replies I just don't agree with everything.
They say work with what you love and you'll be successful. That is great advice. Some also said if you are going to breed snakes and make any money you need Ball pythons. Since I am a morph fanatic with anything and everything I did pay attention to encouragement from some Python breeders but I am content with where colubrids got me and got 2.2 Ball Pythons for a test run. I do not enjoy them half as much as the colubrids though it was fun hatching the few I did hatch... but these snakes of mine would probably be better off with someone else.
I gave it a shot and didnt fare too well and just found I would not enjoy keeping a lot of them.
On another note I like all the Anteresia pythons a LOT and not many others seem too...gonna stick with those
Take it easy
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

...no way

they won't make you rich, they can make you more than kings....and just like balls...brooks make promises and sell make believe colors to people that are willing to pay for them.....and they crash as fast......wholesalers pay for brooksi...same price no matter what color they are....same as bulls...same as alot of other things.....they don't care if it's worth three times as much....it's a brooks....here's $small....

anyways......pet rocks are faster and are smart enough to let go as fast as they grab you.....brooks....they grab and never let go...LOL....tell me they don't...

.......all snakes are cool....I am not starting squat...just commenting on the pet rock theory......and cash in hand....

....and remember a brooks king is a south florida king that turns all yellow if it's good....all the rest are ...hmmmmmm.....possibly hybrids.....just like ultramel corns...."the first codom"....yea....right
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..J Yohe ....

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[img]all the rest are ...hmmmmmm.....possibly hybrids.....[img]

Ahh no. Go back and do some research!....

The only Florida king morhps that are in question are the lavenders and Whietsideds. Even on the lavenders all are hybridized. Just because some people bred Florida kings to lavender cal kings does not mean they all come from Cal king stock.

Heck all kinds of things have been hybridized. Look at the balls they have been bred to bloods , carpets, womas and more. Does that mean all Ball morpsh are hybrids? It is quite easy to tell what is back bred Ball morph just like it is easy for me to tell if a florida king was bred to somethings else.

It all goes back to doing research and getting some history. For instance there are no axanthic cal kings so what created the axanthic or hypo ? Same with the Peanut butter .

>>>For instance there are no axanthic cal kings

hmmmm? really? i thought...
,,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

hmmmm? really? i thought...
,,,,,,,,,,thomas

Well yes there is one guy but knowbody knows who he is except me, and he never did anything with that line. I saw a couple pics (babies that popped out) and he is still raising them up. He will also hold onto most of the prodgeny.

OK, I've done some reading on polygenic and that's got me pretty confused....heh.

When you say a variety, how big of a variety? Say I breed her with another striped king? Will that just increase the chances that I'll produce more striped kings? Is there some equation I can plug into to tell me the odds of what offspring I could even get? I assume that if I breed two striped kings, I'm not going to produce a brooks or a splended, right?

Ball Pythons are pretty simple....put together your Punnett Square and figure out your changes of a spider bred to a pastel. Since we now know spider is dominant and pastel is a co-dom, we know the chances of are 25% normal, 25% spider, 25% pastel and 25% bumblebee. It gets more complicated the more traits there are, but it's relatively predictable. At a minimum, you know the possible outcomes assuming there isn't a hidden gene that you are not accounting for.

I'm guessing you cannot do that with Kings huh? And that is due to the fact that they are polygenic?

OK, I've done some reading on polygenic and that's got me pretty confused....heh.

>>>yeah it basically means "they" dont know...

When you say a variety, how big of a variety? Say I breed her with another striped king? Will that just increase the chances that I'll produce more striped kings? Is there some equation I can plug into to tell me the odds of what offspring I could even get? I assume that if I breed two striped kings, I'm not going to produce a brooks or a splended, right?

>>>stripers do breed true in the wild as do bandeds, but alot of calkings in hobby are of many many many mixed locales and many generations of crossed locales,types,forms, whatever, as such they created the term polygenic to explain why abberancies happen. breeding stripe to stripe will increase your odds of producing stripes, but unless you know the lineage you could get anything in between, as to brooksi or splendida no they also are of diff. locales with distinct ssp. titles and as such crossing a brooks with a calking is frowned upon or done in the closet so to say...

Ball Pythons are pretty simple....put together your Punnett Square and figure out your changes of a spider bred to a pastel. Since we now know spider is dominant and pastel is a co-dom, we know the chances of are 25% normal, 25% spider, 25% pastel and 25% bumblebee. It gets more complicated the more traits there are, but it's relatively predictable. At a minimum, you know the possible outcomes assuming there isn't a hidden gene that you are not accounting for.

I'm guessing you cannot do that with Kings huh? And that is due to the fact that they are polygenic?

>>> so are colubrids unfortunately we dont have any dominant or codom traits est. yet. just simple reccessives, but alot have been prooven and established like same punnet square. albino,lav.albino,hypo,melanistic,anerythristic,axanthic. as reccessives many double homozygot forms have also been established like snows(albino anery),ghosts(hypo anery),hybino, etc.etc. not all kings are polygenic imho then there are abberancies like splotching,striping that do just pop up. but for true predictability you need to know the origin of your animals and even then nothings guarenteed.
we call pythons from angola angolan pythons, couldnt it be just another form of what we call ball python? what are animals that come from areas where the 2 share range classified as? a morph? i dunnogood luck
,,,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Thank you sir