Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've seen on You-tube people feeding live mice to their monitor. What do you think about this? Doesn't it make the monitor mean from your experience? That's what Pro-exotics say about feeding live....

No, that misses the point.

We feed thawed because it is safer for the lizard. With one or two animals, you may never have a problem with a rodent fighting to stay alive in the jaws of a snake or monitor.

With hundreds or thousands of examples, the odds will catch up with you though. I have seen plenty of wounds from live feeders. Not cool.

What gives monitors a nastier temperament is a novice keeper cramming 18 pounds of meat down their throats every day. When you feed rodents rodents rodents, all that heavy meat, the rest of your husbandry, most specifically temps and moisture levels, better be spot on. It isn't easy to digest a 4lb pot roast every night of your life, you are gonna get backed up, feel uncomfortable, and get cranky. You need some roughage in your life. Small lizards are built to eat insects, keep a balance of rodents AND insects, and you will be fine.

Meat by itself doesn't make a monitor temperamental/mean, poor husbandry does.

This is one of the most commonly misinterpreted sections of our husbandry info : )
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

It can be pretty gruesome. I did it once, with a pair of ackies. I was out of F/T and so was the closest place, so I bought 'em some live...they both went after the same mouse and basically ripped it in two. I almost threw up watching that...and yeah, feeder mice/rats can jack up up a critter pretty good. Search google for pictures of snakes and lizards injured by feeding live rodents. Some of them will turn your stomach.

Check out this video, pimped out komodo style. Yo know I'm sayin? Yo know I'm sayin?

>>I've seen on You-tube people feeding live mice to their
>> monitor. What do you think about this? Doesn't it make
>> the monitor mean from your experience? That's what
>> Pro-exotics say about feeding live....

My experience:

Feeding live didn't make any of my large monitors mean, or change their attitude in any way that I could notice. You can feed arguses pre-killed from the day they are born, and they will still try to rip your hands off if they think you have food.

Feeding frozen/thawed is far more convenient, less expensive, and probably better for the monitor.

The most horrific experience I ever had with a monitor was when I threw a live chick to a female argus. She attacked it with gusto, but it was too big for her to eat whole. Rather than killing it quickly, she started to dig at it with her claws. The poor little chick was still alive as it was slowly being ripped to pieces. I could hear its pathetic peeps going from frantic to subdued over several minutes. Finally, mercifully, the chick succumbed to shock (by this time, bits of the chick were spread over the enclosure). These days, the only live things I feed to my reptiles are insects.

Luke

From what I've seen of feeding live, it's the feeder I feel bad for, more so than the monitor. Feeding too large a prey is not only risking getting the monitor injured, but as stated, is unecessarily cruel to the prey.
I realize, it's a personal preference and not everyone loves 'all' animals the same.

But some of those jerks on youtube need a good dose of their own medicine!

People call monitors mean when their acting like normal monitors are suppose to. You don't make monitors mean you make them stop acting like their suppose to. This is done by conditioning and interaction , changing the animals perception of you not it's prey. Killing a rodent won't change the way animal views you one way or the other. The only way that occurs is thru direct interaction and the devolvement of trust.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

"I've seen on You-tube people feeding live mice to their monitor. What do you think about this? Doesn't it make the monitor mean from your experience? That's what Pro-exotics say about feeding live...."

I think feeding live prey caters to some sick sense of curiosity, which is fine, but the appeal quickly fades away once you've seen it. After that, I really don't see the necessity in it...especially since healthy monitors will eat virtually anything, alive or dead.

Many people choose not to because especially for monitors, if you aren't breeding rodents, it's a lot easier to keep them in the freezer rather than buying new ones every freakin day! Plus, freezing also kills some parasites as well.

I don't think there is any relation to monitors being aggressive because of a "live" diet, but I also haven't fed enough live rodents to test that theory. Someone would have to convince me the benefits of feeding live mice for me to even care enough to test it. Good luck! haha

I have attached some pictures of what happens to animals when you feed live prey and are not careful. This lethargic Argus was left unattended with a live mouse and you can see the results. I took the monitor in, but it ended up dying anyway...for something so stupid! Is it really worth it?

The other pictures...

Hello,
Feeding live has never bothered me a bit whether it was pigs to salt water crocs, rabbits to retics, or mice and rats to monitors. It is what these animals do and how they survive. I don't; however feel the need to display videos of feeding on "youtube"... Best to all- Mike

[Feeding live has never bothered me a bit whether it was pigs to salt water crocs, rabbits to retics, or mice and rats to monitors. It is what these animals do and how they survive]

Yes, it's what these animals do, but 'human intervention' robs the prey of their natural ability to escape. No matter how clever or crafty they are(and they can be very clever), they're sentenced to death by being confined to the predator's cage. Grossly unfair, when we have the option of doing it more humanely, without the torture.

Hahahaha, Too funny! A bunch of people who make a hobby of keeping predatory, carnivorous lizards discussing morality issues with respect to death.

The we love to use words like "mean" and "aggressive" with respect to their behavior as if they have some sort of evil intentions, hahahaha.

I believe I'll make a trip to the local chicken farm, buy a couple dozen live peeps, turn them loose with a couple of very large niles, film it and post it here for you all to enjoy. I'll bet anyone a hundred bucks not one of them lives long enough to know what even hit it.

Hi Jeff,

I do not believe that people who feed live consistently do it becuase it is better, but becuase it is convienant. When fed live in a responcible manner (IE proper size, monitor has proper husbandry) there is little risk.

It is unfortuneate that someone was ignorant on behalf of the little one you picture, but that is just another example of not using common sense.

Cheers,
Mike.

Its not mean, its life.
Predators eat prey, prey eats other prey or plants, a fact of life. Simply put, when you keep a predator you need to feed it prey.
I personally feed frozen thawed because of the mess, cost, time, effort, stink, of dealing with live prey animals. My dogs eat deer legs, and animal parts, also they have eaten small, and medium sized furry animal by their own choice, its not mean, its life as a predator. And no I will never use dogfood, its not much better to feed to them than human waste.

The few times Ive fed live animals to my reptiles in many years now are rare. But displaying a video of your predator killing, and eating live prey if not set up in a way as to say that this is not to be graphic, but to show what happens from a distance.

Closeup video by these juveniles of such a feeding is purely to be graphic and to cause others to be offended.
Consider this, I posted a few feeding videos of Sobek and a few others eating frozen thawed prey over the years, one of these videos was removed by youtube because it was considered too graphic. The video was shot of my flaviargus eating a medium sized guinea pig (of which you couldnt even tell what it was). The simple effect caused by the sound of water making a gurgling sound from the lizard swallowing it, and me saying it was a guinea pig in the video description caused it to be considered too graphic.
makes me wander how many of these kids have had their videos removed and after a few attempts banned from the site?

I've seen worse, but the videos weren't removed. There is one of a Pyxie frog eating a really small live rat and the rat was going crazy. There is one of an ornate horned frog crushing the mouse skull. Noe of these videos were removed for some reason.

Make the monitor mean? What about the dad gum people being mean?

Seems to usually be the realm of sicko teenage boys. Someone finding amusement and entertainment in the suffering of a little creature really creeps me out.

F/T prey was put to sleep in a nice way. And of course does not have the chance to lacerate the monitor.

While I agree that feeding live food to satisfy someone's own sick fantasies is wrong I do not feel that feeding live overall is wrong. There is a whole myriad of varanid behaviors that one misses out on if they do not feed live or only feed "small" easy to consume prey animals. "Too large" of a prey item offered to a group of monitors is an amazing thing to watch. They really do work together and I don't mean just to tear the thing up. As far as the prey injuring the monitor or even snakes, I believe that only happens with unhealthy animals. The cited Argus monitor is such a case. To each his own but I keep reptiles to observe behavior so I will keep on feeding live.

This is not a critisism of you dear keeper just to get an idea across.

Yes to each their own but how many times does one have to see and hear the screaming of prey animals to get enough of seeing that behavior? Yes we could say its natural but its not. In nature the prey has a chance to escape.

In western civilization we have humane slaughter of food animals. We do not stab a horse in the neck and let it run or hang up a baby goat by the feet and cut its throat like they do in some, ahemm, barbaric countrys. Our monitor lizards will gladly take a euthanized prey. Is there not already enough pain and suffering in the world? If your gut tells you it is wrong, it probably is.

"Yes to each their own but how many times does one have to see and hear the screaming of prey animals to get enough of seeing that behavior?"

The kill is pretty darn quick. Maybe we should feed prekilled insects too. Sometimes it's just unbearable to watch those poor crickets get their bodies smashed between some stacks and the monitors jaws. I'm sure the research to prove insects have feelings too is right around the corner.

I'm not arguing that it's nature. But have you ever seen a group of monitors flush out a mouse from under a stack or a water bowl? Have you seen them poke their nose at the prey and dash around to the other side to catch it? Have you seen them hunt cracks for the one that got away? Have you seen a Male" show off" his hunting prowess to a female? I continue to feed live because the new behaviors never stop and I want to see them all.

Monitors do not work as group when hunting. It's every lizard for themselves if anything they chomp on and fight each other for every scrap. There's no sharing or hunting to impress a potential mate in the reptile world. If anyone is feeding a group of monitors they better make sure there's plenty to go around. Monitors take what they get there is no added thrill of the chase for them it's all about filling their stomachs. Dead or alive they don't care.

Rodents absolutely attack and injure healthy animals and it's pretty common for various reasons. Rats and mice are resourceful animals and sometimes aggressive animals that will do what they have to. Anyone who doesn't feel that a trapped rat isn't capable of inflicting serious injury to a healthy caged reptile simply hasn't seen enough.

" In western civilization we have humane slaughter of food animals. We do not stab a horse in the neck and let it run or hang up a baby goat by the feet and cut its throat like they do in some, ahemm, barbaric countrys. "

Well.............................................................................

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

"Monitors do not work as group when hunting. It's every lizard for themselves if anything they chomp on and fight each other for every scrap. There's no sharing or hunting to impress a potential mate in the reptile world."

HAhahahahahahahahahahahahahaha Oh yes they do!!!!! They may fight for the last scrap after it's subdued but I have witnessed cooperative hunting. Fighting for every scrap after a kill does not disqualify them from having the ability to be group hunters. But... monitors also DON"T.... multiclutch, DO need UVB, will be impacted and fat if they eat too many rodents, should be kept on no substrate and at 85f, will die after 2 clutches, don't utilize choices, don't learn, don't cooperate in nest building, and everything else I read in a book about monitors.

All cases I've seen of Chewed up reptiles were due to an unhealthy animal. I'm not talking about once the prey is grabbed and it happens to get a bite in. Those bites rarely do anything and if they do they are healed in 3.5 seconds with a healthy animal.

Well if you THINK your lizards exhibit team work that's fine. I've never read a monitor book. There weren't monitor books when I began working with reptiles. I only have my observations in working with the real thing under all types pf conditions to go on. When it comes to animal behavior and the ability to read this behavior I'm no to bad.

There are "reports" of Nile monitors working as team when nest robbing croc eggs. But these reports are very poorly documented. Questionable to say the least. In captivity when you throw alive prey item into the cage theres only so many places for it run. All the lizards want it so naturally their all going to end up in the same place poking around trying to get to first. This isn't team work. It's chumming.

In captivity I've seen enough lizards crush one another during feeding frenzy's even when there is plenty of food so................I would say to anyone keeping a group together especially with the larger stuff to pay attention at feeding time. The dwarf stuff I only had ackies and tree monitors types aeren't nearly as bad .

The FACT is a live can and will do SERIOUS damage to a healthy reptiles anyone with even a little background will tell you. In the modern era of reptile keeping with few exceptions feeding live doesn't make sense.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

Sounds like you copied that out of an old text book. To bad....My monitors work in groups all the time. I'm not the only one who sees it either.
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

Umm, I feed my insectivorous Shama Thrush freeze dried mealworms. No chance of food borne disease. I also put the crickets he eats in the freezer. They keep better that way. But those are not the only reasons.

Not that I know insects suffer. I don't. But we didn't used to think fish suffer either but experiments show that they do.

But I am the one suffers to see the suffering of others. I'm not feeding one being alive to another if I don't have to. Even an insect. Any creature who's life must be taken, lets do it humanely.

Again, I am not attacking you or your way. I don't just need to see those behaviors because I already know they have them.

Is it worth it when a mouse gets in a lucky bite and puts out an eye?

What I mean is 'killing' behaviors, not group hunting or mate impressing. I agree its every monitor for themselves. But they will go back and check for overlooked food items. And for a long time afterward. Memory or odor? I think I am going to do an experiment.

I've never fed live... Why risk it when they eat frozen anything just fine?
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1.1 Savannah Monitors (Annah & Terrance)
1.1 Nile Monitor (Lyle)
1.0 Timor Monitor (Timmmmaaayy)
1.0 Blood Python (Kevin)
1.0 Ball Python (Martin)
0.1 Leopard Gecko (Bella)
2.0 Bearded Dragons (Peter & Jack)
1.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake (Hector)
1.1 Kenyan Sand Boas (Wayne & Maude)
1.0 Dwarf Gecko (Little Girl)
1.0 Curly Hair Tarantula (Pube)
1.0 OBT Usumbara Orange Baboon Tarantula (Sin)
1.0 Emperor Scorpion (Ashoka)
2.0 D. auratus (Poison Dart Frogs)
1.0 Peacock Bass (Gary)

What I don't like seeing is the rodents acting like popcorn in a gas chamber of CO2. Sorry that is not any more human or quick than the jaws of my monitor lizards. Besides either I'm doing the killing or the lizard is....which one is more natural?
Sheesh people and their political correctness scares me, I hope these aren't the same people living in their delusional virtual worlds that play all "those" incredibly realistic video games killing people and all such...really who/what is more sick?
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

I was not going to dignify that with a reply but I would like to point this to other folks. Animals twitch and kick after they are dead. This is the spinal nerves firing. I am a nurse, a critical care ICU nurse and I know a lot more about life and death and suffering than you will ever know. Alleviation and prevention of suffering has nothing to do with politics.

Live prey has a slightly higher nutrition level since it is alive.... frozen/thawed is decaying flesh..it loses some of its value. You can feed live prey but small if you are concerned with the suffering of the rodent. For example pinkies instead of mice or mice instead of rats.

Good on you!
You don't know me or what I know. Get over yourself.

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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

Ooooooo. Pitvipers. he takes pictures of pitvipers. I've caught dozens of those, copperheads, canebrakes and coralsnakes (elapanids) too in my yard by pining with a stick and catching them behind the jaws. To get them out of my barnyard. Why? Because I don't kill things. I'm impressed enough with you already. Perhaps you should have another beer.

the stud....Maybe one day I can be just like you. But in the mean time I will just be my primitive self. I do kill things OOOH AHHH, you see by killing I understand the real value of life. The savageness of life has value. Its real to me, oh yeah and I allow my animals that make a living by killing kill too. Do you eat meat? Or just kill plants for a living? A little hypocritical don't you think?

And you still know nothing about me so get off your high horse. LPN or RN is that a two or four year program???? You act so pompus you'd think you were an MD, but nope. Go back to your holier than though routine, I'm sure you can convince someone to buy into your nonsense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luSJiBjqz_s
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

Is there not a juvenile message board somewhere where you could go Mr. Dobo? I am not a male but an estrogenic little female. ICU is not a 2 year course, I have many years of college and 16 years of critical care experience. YOU however shot yourself in the foot back when back when you said a rodent bite heals on a monitor in "3.5 seconds".

Lets just do the logic here. Is it worth it to pay 10 times as much for your animal's food? A F/T jumbo mouse costs 40 cents. A live jumbo mouse costs $3.80 here plus the gas.

"Is there not a juvenile message board somewhere where you could go Mr. Dobo? I am not a male but an estrogenic little female. ICU is not a 2 year course, I have many years of college and 16 years of critical care experience. YOU however shot yourself in the foot back when back when you said a rodent bite heals on a monitor in "3.5 seconds"."

WHAT? Try again and go back and read who wrote what, and uh whats your point again Miss? Do you eat meat or not? I already have one estrogenic female in my life, I don't need another one.

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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

I don't know about you but most people eat meat that someone else has killed. Feeding pre killed to a lizard is no different. It has no importance to the lizard. Feeding live prey is the equivalent of conducting a canned hunt. It serves no purpose there are no tangible advantages but there are draw backs. If someone prefers feeding live that's a personal choice and nothing more.

By the way in your last post directed to me Just what old text book are you talking about? I've never read a monitor text book apparently you have. To bad.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

They do have those I can give you the date and publisher when I get home. By the way how would you know anything about group hunting if you don't feed live? How exactly would you interpret a male killing a mouse and then letting the female eat it? That doesn't really fit your all for all analogy. I see this behavior on a regular basis too. The male will wait to eat, very strange.
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

I have no doubt text books exist . The point I never read them didn't need to. I certainly would never quote one. If you knew my background you would know why. Anything I referenced to comes personal observation. Nothing dated about any of it.

I didn't say I never fed live. As a matter of fact I did mention the calamities I've seen during group feedings. I've seen during group feedings. Unless it's a special case. I never feed live anymore and haven't in many years I expressed my opinion and gave my reasons . What others do is up to them.

You should video tape your monitors group hunting. Document their team work. I can't account for every animals actions in every situation can you ? I have never seen one monitor offer another monitor it's food in ether captivity or the wild. I really would like to see that. A lot of people would.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7Y_PD-2vo4&feature=related
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

Yeah that was Me who said that a monitor will heal itself in 3.5 seconds. Obviously an exaggeration but the point was that healthy reptiles heal so amazingly fast you'd think the wound never happened.

This thread got so off point as usual. Your work as an ICU nurse while honorable and a much appreciated profession has diddly squat to do with the topic at hand. And gives you no ground to make judgements on others because you do not know them. Nothing wrong with being proud of what you do but don't forget you're not the only who has worked stressful thankless jobs.

I brought it up because the point I was making in using live animals to feed is about suffering. Also about the death process. Someboby else wanted to insult my profession. I have monitors and other creatures and I come here to forget about that side of life. Let it drop. And I no I don't eat meat.

I and others have tried the unneeded suffering angle, the potential for injury angle, and the ridiculously high cost angle. Hopefully some will change their feeding method. This was a good and useful discussion, even with the biting, hissing and tail whipping.

[I and others have tried the unneeded suffering angle, the potential for injury angle, and the ridiculously high cost angle. Hopefully some will change their feeding method. This was a good and useful discussion, even with the biting, hissing and tail whipping]

Well said and thank you!

forgive me if you think I attacked your profession, as that was not at all the intent.

As for everything else I simply don't agree. How can you say that suffocation is not suffering or is being killed nicely? The animals are still dying. Additionally it is my perspective that the attitude of preventing needless suffering causes more problems than it helps. This reminds me of the whole no horse kill shelter legislation that was passed from ignorance, and now thousands of horses starve to death as apposed to being killed humanely. There is no such thing as needless suffering, because for something to prosper something else must suffer. Such is life.
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

Mr. Dobo you must be very young. Perhaps that mustach in the picture of you, if that is you, is pasted on.

The mammalian repiratoty drive is brainstem based. It sets it's point for respiratory rate not to get oxygen (unless you smoke too many cigarettes) it sets the rate to get CO2 balanced. Thats why a hyperventilating person should breathe in a paper bag for a while, it will slow their respiratory rate. So when the mice breathe CO2 they loose their respiratory drive. Soon they don't have enough oxygen for their brain to function and they pass out. They die. Then the spinal nerves jumping and twitching starts.

How did you get such an idea that some must suffer so others may prosper? I'm know not going to change your idea, but perhaps time will.

"Mr. Dobo you must be very young. Perhaps that mustach in the picture of you, if that is you, is pasted on.

The mammalian repiratoty drive is brainstem based. It sets it's point for respiratory rate not to get oxygen (unless you smoke too many cigarettes) it sets the rate to get CO2 balanced. Thats why a hyperventilating person should breathe in a paper bag for a while, it will slow their respiratory rate. So when the mice breathe CO2 they loose their respiratory drive. Soon they don't have enough oxygen for their brain to function and they pass out. They die. Then the spinal nerves jumping and twitching starts.

How did you get such an idea that some must suffer so others may prosper? I'm know not going to change your idea, but perhaps time will."

Your belittling is getting old, and your overall demeanor speaks for itself. Ironically, like the post above your wrong again.
The rate of respiration is based on the rate at which blood can uptake oxygen, and get rid of carbon dioxide. When CO2 levels build up in the blood hydrogen ions increase and the blood pH balance is offset and the blood becomes more acidic. As blood becomes more acidic the affinity for hemoglobin is decreased. This decrease in pH also causes many cell essential enzymes that control cellular metabolism to shut down.

During hyperventilation the opposite is occurring and the blood is getting too much oxygen and the pH is increasing. This is far worse. You see carbon dioxide is a buffer to keep blood pH stable and prevent large swings in blood pH that would be caused from other by products of aerobic respiration.
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

Still hissing and whipping? Obviously I explained in laymans terms and you haven't got your part quite right either. Have a nice day and keep the mustach on straight.

the more sensitive and soft we get as a country, the more motivated the savages that want us dead get.If you cant watch a mouse die, how will you defend yourself from a decapatating maniac. but feel free to keep pretending we live in a safe glass box. as for the live-f/t, personal preference. im on the f/t side.

This is my personal creed. First, do no harm. I have three reasons when I can take a life. 1. Self defense ( thank you Mr. Reminton) 2. To survive. If I were in a plane crash in the Arctic you bet I would eat lemmings. 3. To put an animal out of it's misery. Now, if a creature in my care must eat meat, then thats what it gets. But a live creature will not suffer first.

To those still not swayed by humaneness, risk of injury, or that F/T are 1/10th the cost, y'all go on! Go for it!

That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard yet!

One has nothing to do with the other. I know that people with 'real' strength, don't need to see suffering, to make them strong. Nor do they need to see their 'tough monitors' tear live prey to pieces, or perform acts of mortal combat between one another, just because it makes people go "wow, that's so cool, can you get a picture, or better yet a video?"
Yeah right, till one of them severely injures, or kills the other.

Oops- there I go again, being dramatic

really, the most ridiculous ever. this is far more ridiculous- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4NP7-0LHws
okay, maybe i overreacted but this chick sounds like a humane society member. the kid just said he likes to observe his monitors hunt, and she acts as if its not my way so he must be a serial killer.IM NOT DEFENDING PEOPLE WHO TORTURE ANIMALS. but if we get to the point that we get teary eyed over a dead mouse we are useless. this girl sounds like someone who faints at an obama speech.
love: steve

You dont see me, a combat vet, telling others they will be weak if they dont watch live animals being killed, thats rediculous, and an outright lie. Because they wont be weaker if they dont watch that, in fact the individual who enjoys watching animals suffer, usually has serious mental short comings, and is a weak individual who couldnt defend themselves let alone anyone else.

Its not about monitors or snakes proving to be most fit to mate, about being able to hunt and survive, its not about nature, its all about some sick twisted little child who wants to show everyone a video of graphic gore to shock and revolt them.
Once youve seen your reptile kill and eat once, its not much different every time after that. In fact its a much slower more drawn out process than something like my dogs, or a cat killing and eating a good sized rodent or simlar animal, they just grab and bite once, then eat it, but I guess thats why its not so exciting to some sickos.
Remember, we are talking about pets in captivity here. Its ok to feed live, but dont post videos of it in close up, with full gory detail to shock others, when you do that your adolesence shows.
How about when a raptor just comes down from the sky and strikes so hard that the animal dies instantly?
What makes these predators less interesting? Is it the lack of a struggle, the speed of death, the lack of suffering by the prey animal? Or because they are better at killing quickly?

Hello,
Is it more humane for us to kill the prey animals than it is to provide a proper sized prey item and allow the predator to do what it does so efficiently? Also, my monitors seem to really enjoy chasing and feeding on live prey, can anyone disagree? Should I euthanize my crickets? What about anoles and frogs? Try keeping a breeding group of T. gracilis on frozen thawed anoles. Heck, I feel privileged that where I am I can get live pigs instead having to thaw one out(has anyone here tried this?). Of course I don't agree with the youtube videos of animals trying to kill prey items that are far too large... I think this discussion has surely wandered off of the original topic- Hahahaha! Best to all- Mike

" it more humane for us to kill the prey animals than it is to provide a proper sized prey item and allow the predator to do what it does so efficiently? Also, my monitors seem to really enjoy chasing and feeding on live prey, can anyone disagree? "

Yes and I definitely disagree.

" I am I can get live pigs instead having to thaw one out(has anyone here tried this?). "

Yes.

Ernie Eison
Westwood ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

Hahahaha! Maybe all you bleeding hearts should get off of your pedestles. Seriuosly, unless we have some pure vegans here, which I seriously doubt we do, then none of you have anything to say. Maybe you should all go to PETA's website and learn about how the animals us humans eat are slaughtered, then come back and argue about the morality of allowing our captives to experience the predator/prey relationship. And as for the issue of prey biting predator and the risk of infection, examine your own husbandry. My monitors have experienced all manner of injuries and healed just fine as they are kept in such a way as to have very strong immune systems.

The point I am trying to get across.
"I don't agree with the youtube videos of animals trying to kill prey items that are far too large."

Feeding live prey is fine, Im all for it, but trying to shock and disgust others by posting public videos of it is very childish. Its amazing just how many people are offended by a video that says your feeding even a dead rodent to your reptile, let alone showing graphic closeup video of a long drawn out attack on a live rodent.
Also Im warning anyone with a youtube account that they do ban you for videos of animals being eaten, even if they are not very graphic at all, or involving already dead animals.
Im sure if I posted a video of a live groundhog (a similar size to the monitor lizard) killing a monitor lizard in a fight for survival, a video of a ferret killing and eating a similar sized bosc or nile monitor, or a housecat swiftly killing a monitor lizard all in the name of playing with it out of instinct, Id be cursed up and down by more half of this forum.