Reptile & Amphibian Forums

New bills have been introduced in California and Tennessee that look to restrict animal sales. CA AB 1122 and TN SB 1322 & HB 1438 will make it illegal to conduct a commercial animal transaction in many public places. Such places include streets, public right-of-ways, swap meets, flea markets, and parking lots.
USARK is currently working on plans of action to address the above bills and the recently introduced bills in Oregon and Connecticut. Please be ready to take action when called upon.

Andrew

All,

The Center for Biological Diversity is trying to shut down commercial harvest in many states. This, of course, is unacceptable because all species have bag limits and bans are wrong. They are pushing a radical agenda. Add in the scare pushers, academia, and we could have all kinds of bans. We have to get a handle on all this banning agenda and fast. I hope USARK and PIJAC are working on this, in addition to their already full agenda of stopping the bans Andrew mentions above. If we don't, turtle breeders and collectors will be grouped in with the food turtle folks and they will be out of business like they are here in Texas. Not to mention having their freedoms taken away that are guaranteed under the Constitution. All because regulatory agencies don't want to do their jobs. Do you know why the Animal Rights movement does not go Federal with their banning agenda? Because there are Constitutionality questions. That is why they push at the state level. I urge all herpers everywhere to join USARK and PIJAC, now!

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

This ban is mainly to curb the export of animals to Asia for food. I don't want a total ban, but if that is what it takes to keep these turtles from ending up in China, then fine. I am sick and tired of people catching turtles in the thousands and collapsing eco systems for profit. WAKE UP ALL YOU TURTLE THEIVES!!

The reason I say this.
Well, I live in Iowa, an unregulated catch state for snappers, soft shells, painteds. It is rediculous, I know a guy that caught over 2 tons in one season from one area for food markets in Asia. Now any reasonable person knows this is unsustainable in the long run. He has been doing this for decades and not just in Iowa.

I understand some peoples desire to not have any regulation or rules on this. Well, you should have regulated yourself and kept in mind what would happen if your greed caught up with you!

So, I am not for general regulations and believe we should be able to keep what we want. In the instance, it is a needed and well over-due regulation.

What I believe should be regulated instead is the export market. The law should be a total ban on the export of any turtle over 2 inches overall length. If they implemented a ban like this then they wouldn't need to ban the catching of turtles because it wouldn't be worth the time to try and find hatchlings. In most states collecting eggs is illegal so if the exporters are not breeding themselves they will eventually go out of business or go to jail for nest robbing. Also, there should be a ban on the export of turtle meat. This would curb the sale of adults to turtle slaughter facilities. The reason for this ban would be to be sure that adults are not being caught, slaughtered, and sold for export.

I understand there will be disagreement with this, but I don't care because over the past twenty years of being in this hobby I am completely convinced that unless you take a hard look and firm stand some hobbyist and collectors will just keep doing what they have been doing to line their own pockets with no concern for our native plants and animals. This has gone on long enough.

It could simply be done by no export of adults (especially females)or export of processed products.
I'm a turtle guy from all the way back into the 60's.
The hobbyist gets thrown in with the mercenary elements as a matter of convenience and expediency. Such an easy target. Regulators are more interested in spin, not real solutions. A bunch of clueless lazy bastards. Most of witch make their living destroying habitat.
Ask me how I really feel.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Good point John!
Someone is always looking to make someone else a target.
Most of these people who want to ruin people usually want
someone else to do it.

I'm for protecting Chicken and Bovine!

b rickard,

You are part of the problem. Why?

"I understand there will be disagreement with this, but I don't care because over the past twenty years of being in this hobby I am completely convinced that unless you take a hard look and firm stand some hobbyist and collectors will just keep doing what they have been doing to line their own pockets with no concern for our native plants and animals. This has gone on long enough."

You don't care. You have made up your mind and now it is closed. You will support horrible regulations to have any regulation. And that in itself is wrong. What the academics and conservation orgs do is scare regulatory agencies by playing "fast and loose" with the facts to push an agenda. Then the regulatory agencies pass knee jerk banning regulations. The reg agencies already don't want to deal with herps because most of them are good ole boy hunter and fishermen who got into the profession because they like bass, trout, deer, quail and turkeys and don't like herps. And the acacdemics REALLY want all harvest stopped if they can help it.

Do you keep turtles? Do you catch, breed and sell turtles? My guess is you don't. To many "herpers" are willing to beleive the agenda and support the taking away of other people's rights. Hell, what does it matter? You don't keep turtles. It isn't going to affect you. What do you keep? Well, whatever it is they will be coming for you next. Let's see you stand up and holler and scream then. Don't expect the turtle folks to come to your rescue. You sold them out.

There are workable solutions. And that is the ONLY thing we should be supporting. But we should fight every single regulation. That's right! Even the ones we all agree should be put in place. It is a slippery slope and that is a fact. The workable solutions are bag limits. No ban on possession numbers. No ban on sales. The collectors need to be licensed and monitored IN THE FIELD. They need to keep detailed records of their activities. But, again, nothing will replace wardens in the field. They SAY it is to stop the export of turtles to China for food but that is not what ends up happening. Ban the export of adults? What happens if a smart turtle collector/breeder wants to captive produce food turtles and ship them out? Which is what we should be encouraging. Face it, bans are wrong, wrong wrong.

Nobody on this forum has ever preached NO regulation. Although many common species certainly are of little concern when it comes to harvest. I realize that some need regulation. What happened in Texas is that the turtle dealers, collectors and breeders got screwed while the food turtle folks are still in business. They whole arguement by TPWD and academia was to get regs to stop the trade to China. They used this excuse and then screwed the collector, breeder and dealer. We can not stand for this, period, end of story. You can't even breed and sell CB turtles in Texas and that is utterly ridiculous. And by the way box and map turtles are not usually eaten.

The bottom line is that, you, and others like you, need to join USARK and PIJAC and fight for common sense and fair regulations not radical banning agendas. There are conservation minded win/win solutions but when you join with the agenda pushers you are just as bad if not worse then they are. Because you know better.

BTW: I don't keep or breed turtles. What is right is right and what is fair is fair. I will stand up for any herper who is being railroaded out of their Constitutional rights while still conserving wild populations. And you can take that to the bank.

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

The Florida fresh water turtle ban proposal is ,

Stop all collecting for the food trade

Private collectors will be allowed to catch one turtle per day

Turtle farms will be allowed to continue to catch turtles to acquire breeding stock for the next two years.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

Ernie,

Thanks for the info. While it doesn't sound horrible I think it sounds a bit over restrictive. One a day? They could have at least made it a pair. Can you still sell both wild caught and captive born? What about possession limits? So if you are going to get in the breeding game you better do so in the next two years? I don't like that. Anyone at anytime should be able to get in the breeding game with sustainable harvest of course. I have heard quotes from some of the FL academic turtle agenda pushers saying that there is no sustainable harvest on turtle species. I don't believe that. What did they change the bag limits to last year, 20 a day? That seems a bit much. Maybe they should do a yearly harvest per person and have special turtle permits to raise money for some research. It would also seem reasonable to allow bigger bag limits on babies and juveniles. I swear a turtle farmer could make some decent cash breeding food turtles.

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

I haven't seen all the fine print but it says private individuals can collect up to one a day for "Personal USE" with no sale of wild turtles. I take that as meaning you can`t sell the ones collected but you can sell the offspring.

Their saying that this will be the strictest turtle conservation regulation in the country . It's going to pass.

The reason their against setting bag limits and use thru sustainable harvest is because it can`t be enforced . It would take a full time army. The commercial guys don't know when to quit . Tell them they can catch 5 or 100 a day what does it matter ? They will still take every last turtle and dig up as many eggs as they can.

The commercial guys are catching thousands of lbs every week. One guy said he caught a thousand lbs in one day. Their yanking 40 lb female softies out left and right. It's horrific.

These guys might not all get caught poaching but their not getting away with anything ether. Everyone knows what's going on. I certainly don't want breeders or the pet trade in general to be lumped in with these people. The hunters can't blame this on anyone but themselves.

There's no way it can go on and it's cruel. Turtles aren't like other reptiles. They take forever to mature , have low survival rates and unlike snakes , lizards etc, People LOVE turtles. When you start abusing turtles the way the meat trappers do your raising the bar to whole new level in terms of public concern.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

Ernie,

While I agree that we should probably slow the harvest of adult turtles. We shouldn’t ban anything. Bans are NOT the answer. Let’s not kid ourselves bans are the easiest thing for FWC to do. FWC is the biggest state wildlife agency in the country. If they are unwilling to do their job then no other state agency will either. And this opens the door for them to take away everyone’s rights. What will be next? I think what you describe (from FWC) is a bad idea – to restrictive. They could easily require turtle collecting licenses and record keeping to make folks conform to bag limits. But they also need wardens in the field as well. Don’t let them push the “hype.” This China thing is hype. Yes, turtles are going to China but turtles have been around for millions of years and they will continue to be around. I spoke to someone today who knows that the Chinese have started massive turtle farms in their country. Pretty soon this won’t be an issue and then where will all the collectors, dealers and breeders be? They will be SOL. Meanwhile turtle populations will rebound if they are in fact declining due to over-harvest. I guess all the turtles for sale in Florida will have to be “captive born” whether they were or not.

I would also agree that they (academics) will get what they want. They always do. They are the “experts” but these “experts” also push a radical left wing banning agenda. If they could stop all harvest they would, let’s face it. The system is corrupt to begin with because academics train the wildlife agency personnel and they seek research funds from them. It is a closed loop system. We also don’t have an organized counter group to go up against them. The “agenda” uses scare tactics to push their agenda. And they play “fast and loose” with the facts to push this agenda. We have nothing substantial to counter. Until development is completely stopped and the impact of roads is mitigated they really have no business banning anything.

Back to the “hype” you are pushing concerning turtle natural history. Yes, they take a while to mature but not much more time then some snakes. And turtles live along time. They have many years to reproduce. Some are reproductively active for decades. Also the number of clutches and clutch sizes are low balled. Academics always err on the side of caution whether caution is reality or not. Most lower vertebrate wildlife has high juvenile mortality if the ecosystem is near capacity, but, when it is not, juvenile mortality is not nearly as high because of the reduction of competitive pressure. Further, much has been published about box turtle neonate and juvenile mortality. Mostly that researchers can’t find these age classes so the stats show high mortality. But then a researcher in the Midwest started using dogs and low and behold they started finding these age classes. So the researchers just ASSUMED high mortality when in fact they sucked at finding neonates and juveniles. Many box turtle breeders and collectors know how to find neonates and juveniles. Go out to areas with good adult populations after heavy rains and there the little ones are. There are other misconceptions as well. So my point here is don’t believe everything you read or hear. There are usually two sides to every story and the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

You have it all wrong my information isn't coming from the academic hype the FWC or the news papers . I get it straight from the guys doing all the catching and from seeing first hand what go's on. There's no way to defend what their doing or how their doing it.

I made a comment to one of the larger guys about how the biologist are saying their going to hunt all the turtles out. His answer ? "WE WILL , it might take ten years ". I asked what he thought about soft shells being like rats that breed anywhere . He said "no way, they can move in anywhere but really they need the right place to breed . "

FWC has actually been pretty good about things but it's gotten out of hand. I hate government intervention but seriously the commercial turtle guys created all their own problems by acting like dirt bags.

Turtles have been around for millions of years but throw that out and look at the past fifty. Sure adult turtles produce a long time and that's why there's a low survival rate. The commercial collectors are strip minors that take everything eggs, hatchlings giant adults. Every species egg to adult , soft shells, snappers and large hard shells to the meat market the rest to the pet trade. There will be no breeders and an insufficient grow out population to sustain the species if these guys are allowed to continue.

I know all about the Chinese turtle farms . For the most part their really grow outs they buy up hundreds of thousands of baby softshells and snappers and raise them until they can sell them for meat. That`s a big part of egg poaching. The guys hatch out the eggs then export the baby's .

Any legitimate Chinese (did I really say that ? ) breeding projects will take ten years to start producing and based on past performance will suck anyway. Breeding soft shells is tricky. Lets say they use adults to start with for arguments sake . The first year they will get eggs from gravid females then it will be three or four years before they get any real production if things go great. Generally first season turtles produce next to nothing in terms of potential the following season 65% the next 85 % . This is the turtle formula.It will take two years or more for those hatchlings to make a meal. the Asian market is bottomless.

I can't agree that the reproductive numbers are low balled . I have seen areas totally decimated by commercial collectors and habitat lose.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

Your information is not coming from academia or FWC? Are you saying the commercial guys are making up these proposed regs? I know activist academics are pushing the turtle ban. There sure is a way to defend it. If by “it” you mean harvest. Everything can be harvested. It is how much you take that is the issue not the taking itself. Now, I would agree with you that the methods of take maybe cruel. Fishing for turtles with trout lines sounds very cruel. Maybe they should out law that method of take? I also believe it is illegal to collect eggs. So these guys are poaching. If they are not going to obey the law now then making it tougher on the rest of us isn’t going to change that. And there is no way they will catch out all the turtles in Florida in 10 years. That is impossible. Now, some populations could be over-harvested in 10 years. But with bag limits and management most populations will recover. You are pushing “hype.”

I would also agree that the food turtle harvesters are causing the trouble for the pet trade and recreational harvesters. You can’t punish all for the sins of a few. I know they see dollar signs and don’t care about the resource. This can be fixed with bag limits. Bans are wrong, period. You will never convince me otherwise. I know that every species over-produces its kind to account for removals in the population. If you have data that they don’t let me know. It all has to do with over-harvest and FWC’s unwillingness to do research to determine what the bag limits should be for each species. Licenses and permits will help fund that.

Is the cattle, chicken and hog industry bottomless? I don’t think so. There is a bottom. Whether they can reach the goals of captive production is a valid argument. Softshells maybe more tricky to breed then red ears but the Chinese can certainly breed the red ears. Farming is farming and ranching is ranching if they do it correctly they can produce captive offspring to feed the demand. The guy in Florida or where ever that figures out how to breed the softshells will be the one making the cash. Do you doubt that someone can’t figure it out? With captive production and bag limits it will stabilize the market and the price will go up if the demand is there. This will make the more expensive (and delicate) farming operations viable.

The reproductive numbers are low balled. Academics are low ballers. That is pretty much fact. They err on the side of caution with all their data. Academics don’t get enough data and then they low ball it. That skews things hard towards low balling. Take box turtles for instance, it is published that they usually have one clutch a year but in fact they can have up to four. That is low balling. Turtles reproduce several times a year. They live a long time and have more reproductive years. And juvenile mortality isn’t as bad as previously thought. Quoting sexual maturity data from northern latitudes and applying it to Florida populations (longer activity season) is not right either. To say these things is playing “fast and loose” with the facts. Using out dated or geographically irrelevant data to push an agenda (stop harvest) is not right. This has all been done by the academic activists.

I understand that over-harvest needs to be stopped. I also understand that cruel harvest methods may need to be eliminated. I also understand the disgust about letting our turtles be shipped over to China to be killed and eaten. But none of that is a viable argument for taking away the rights of American citizens to sustainably harvest a resource, captive produce and commerce in a natural resource.

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

Welkerii,
I didn't reply to your retarded post before when you completely dissed me because you made no sense. You said you didn't breed turtles and after reading the rest of your post, now I have to say something.
First, I have been breeding turtles for almost 20 years. You my friend are an idiot. Keep your mouth shut about stuff you know nothing about.
We are not proposing banning guns or anything. I agree with this ban because I have seen first hand what turtle hunters and turtle poachers do to native populations. You my friend are an idiot because over collecting for food and the pet trade do have a negative effect on turtle populations.
Now, I have been to turtle farms in SE Asia and the food markets of China, Hong Kong, Singapore and Thailand. You are a fool for saying they do not eat box turtles or sliders. They do, in large numbers. Period. They have completely decimated the native populations locally and across the borders in Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Indonesia, the list can go on. The Chinese desire for turtle meat and parts will not subside until every last turtle is eaten, period.
There is an old saying in Guangzhou, "If it flies and is not a plane, we eat it. If it has legs and is not a table, we eat it."
Get your facts straight.
I proposed what should be done. And you idiotic remarks about me personally and what should be done are foolish.
No where in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights does it mention that we are free to do what we want with our natural environment. If you think so, maybe you should go back to elementary school and learn to read!
Barry

Barry,

You are obviously not a very intelligent person. Name calling doesn’t get anyone anywhere. Most people start name calling when they don’t have anything intelligent to say. I am an educated and experienced person, Barry. I have been in the herp field professionally since 1986 so I have over 20 years of experience in this field. I am the former head of the Herpetology Department at the Central Florida Zoo (where I bred turtles). I have completed my AS in Zoo Animal Technology, my BS in Wildlife Science and I am now completing my Masters in Environmental Policy and Management with a Certificate in GIS. I have done field research for the University of Florida, The Florida Museum of Natural History, The University of Central Florida and The University of Alabama. I have also worked for researchers at Brown University and The University of North Carolina to name a few. So who is an idiot, Barry?

Barry, do you know how to read? Do you know how to comprehend English? If you did you would know that I DO NOT support over-collection. If you read my post you would have comprehended that. I support sustainable harvest and every species can be harvested in a sustainable manner. It looks to me like you need to educate yourself about animal populations and harvest. You obviously don’t know much about it. I said or implied they are usually not eating box turtles and map turtles (not sliders, Barry). Most of the US turtle exports feeding the demand in China are snappers, softshells, sliders and cooters. So I think you need to get the facts straight yourself. Your first lesson is reading and comprehension.

Now here is your lesson on Constitutionality. We are guaranteed many things under the US Constitution. One of them is the pursuit of happiness. Another is our right to commerce and conduct business. Another is our right to free speech. Another is certain rights to fairness. Again, Barry, do you know why the animal rights movement does not push things at the Federal level? Because there are constitutionality issues with that approach. Check out the Michigan State Animal Law website at www.animallaw.info. There is an article on there that talks about this fact. Educate yourself before you embarrass yourself like this on a public forum.

Finally, if the demand is that strong for turtle meat then the captive production of turtle meat will become a reality. That is a fact that you will have to face. This will require founder stock and harvest will be allowed (in a sustainable manner) to accomplish this. You can hoot and holler and call names all you want. Money can get you anything you want. It can get you politicians. So you can live in your fantasy world all you want. But you know who will get screwed out of this? The hobbyists, collectors and breeders that are not in the food game. That is who will get screwed. If commercial sale is banned then you are SOL. It has happened in many states and the rest are sure to follow. I sure hope you don’t get screwed up where you live. You may find that for your next 20 years you are an ex-turtle breeder. Good luck with that, dude, and happy studying

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

I am going to tell you again, what ever your name is. You stated I am not a turtle keeper. I am. So, you my friend are still a fool for even making the accusation that I am not. Don't come on here and tell me or anyone else what credentials you have. It makes no difference. I could also say I have a degree here or there and have done this or that. I don't care what you have done or where you studied. You are the one that posted about the proposed turtle ban, not me or anyone else. On top of that, you say that you do not even keep or breed turtles.
Don't tell me I am part of the problem. I am not. I do not catch and kill hundreds of turtles per year. On the contrary. I spend my extra time rehabbing and releasing animals at no cost to you or anybody else but myself.
Sustainable harvest of adult turtles is a joke and you know it. It is not sustainable period. It is a thought process that is overused and misunderstood when dealing with turtles. These are not deer or raccoons. Turtles are animals that can take 5-10 years to reach maturity.
You didn't imply anything. YOU SAID IT!!! Get your facts right. Travel to China and look what is for sale! I have, have you?
"...One of them is the pursuit of happiness." Yes, you are correct, as long as it does not infringe on the rights of others! So, by over harvesting turtle you are infringing on the rights of my children! So, your right for the pursuit of happiness cannot be achieved!
I am not embarrassing myself. I don't give a damn what anybody thinks about this issue. I am right, and if you don't agree with me I really don't care. I can see through what you are writing on this thread and in this particular forum and I understand where you stand politically. Freedom has nothing to do with destroying natural balances.
"Finally, if the demand is that strong for turtle meat then the captive production of turtle meat will become a reality."
IT IS!! Man, do you not know anything about the Asian wild animal markets? If not, then quit trying to debate me on this.
"This will require founder stock and harvest will be allowed (in a sustainable manner) to accomplish this."
THEY ALREADY HAVE FOUNDER STOCK! I have seen it first hand in Asia!! There are huge turtle farms throughout SE China and on Hainan Is.
"But you know who will get screwed out of this? The hobbyists, collectors and breeders that are not in the food game. That is who will get screwed. If commercial sale is banned then you are SOL."
No they wont. I am only proposing export bans. I didn't say anything about banning a hobbyist from keeping turtles. Maybe, instead of insulting my intelligence you should read what I wrote.
By the way. I can read. I can write. I can talk. And I can speak. I have lived in Europe, I know this hobby well enough to be able to make a sound judgment on what should be done. You do not seem to understand what I am talking about at all.

Barry,

You are obviously not thinking clearly. I never said you didn't keep turtles. You are not reading my posts. You are just lashing out at me because I am correct and you are wrong. You are rambling on and on. You are definetly brain washed with banning agenda. You don't know my politics at all but you THINK you do. You are losing touch with reality. You are out of control and running off at the mouth. You are acting totally unreasonable and your posts are incoherent.

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

Here you go, from this post.
"... I never said you didn't keep turtles. ..."

This statement is verbatim from your first reply to my initial post.
"Do you keep turtles? Do you catch, breed and sell turtles? My guess is you don't...."

DO I NEED TO SPELL IT OUT ANY FRIGGIN CLEARER!
I do all of the above! If you must know. Most of what I hatch I keep or give to friends. I am by no means a large scale turtle or snake breeder. I am not doing this for money. It is a hobby! If I wanted to make a ton of money I would have stayed in Sweden and worked for the government over there.

About cohesion and understanding your posts. I understand what you are writing. Don't tell me I am wrong because you think I am. Take a poll of the people that keep turtles as pets. You will be very surprised at what you find. And I am almost certain that my idea will win over yours! We value these animals more than for the money aspect.

You see, there you go again. You say, Barry... You are this, you are that.

Brainwashed, no. Understand what is going on... well, it seems as though your agenda is too keep America as free as possible at any cost.

Here is my question to you. You mentioned earlier that the constitution guarantees everyone certain rights. An example you used was the the to the pursuit of happiness.
Ok, fine. All well and said. I agree to the principle of this statement.
So, what if I am a raging alcoholic and my pursuit of happiness is to drive home from the bar drunk. Is this ok with you? I am in the pursuit of my ever loving happiness.

My point is this. You, me, and everyone else needs to concede to the simple fact that we cannot do as we please just because we want to. Your argument for the gains realized in the economy and all personal gains is fundamentally flawed. You cannot reasonably expect any local government to monitor all the water ways of this country to be sure all hunters and harvesters are complying with the law. It is improbable and impossible to expect the government to even attempt this.

So, my solution is the only reasonable solution. I did not say to ban the export of all turtles. There is a reasonable limit on what can be exported. I did not say that you cannot harvest turtles for personal consumption or even sale for that matter. I only said export.

"Barry, do you know how to read? Do you know how to comprehend English?...."
Actually, I speak 2 languages fluently. I understand 2 additional languages with no problem. So, that gives me 4 languages, including English. If you really have to keep insulting me.

Barry,

Here is what you wrote:

"You my friend are an idiot because over collecting for food and the pet trade do have a negative effect on turtle populations."

Here is what I wrote:

"I understand that over-harvest needs to be stopped."

"Everything can be harvested. It is how much you take that is the issue not the taking itself."

"I would also agree that the food turtle harvesters are causing the trouble for the pet trade and recreational harvesters. You can’t punish all for the sins of a few. I know they see dollar signs and don’t care about the resource. This can be fixed with bag limits. Bans are wrong, period. You will never convince me otherwise. I know that every species over-produces its kind to account for removals in the population. If you have data that they don’t let me know."

So Barry, if you would have READ my post and COMPREHENDED ENGLISH you would have seen that I have NEVER said that I support over-collection quite the contrary. I rest my case.

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

I'm a commercial collector and even I know things have to
be protected but not blanket protection of every species in
every state. The problem is that law enforcement sees
what they think are large quantities of animals going out of
their state and they want to stop it. Allowing one of a species to be collect is as stupid as allowing 10,000 to be collected.
They can't seem to come up with something reasonable...and not
two of each. You don't just protect something just for the sake of protection. That's the way things are going....from state to state they have to have something protected because it seems to be the thing to do.....everyone else is doing it....we should too. Its just another way of fueling the bureaucracy....more jobs
created and more money from the federal government.

I can go out and collect 10 - 100 Northern Red Salamanders in a night at certain times of the year and go back year after year and get that same numbers. The same thing with garter snakes. As long as you leave the habitat alone you can collect the overflow. Sure; species like Box Turtles and Bog Turtles need protection but not completely off limits.

I keep making this point: One thing F&G and F&W don't realize or
don't want to realize is that once a species makes it into
the hands of breeders that species is bred to the point that
there are so many of them no body want's them. The commercial collector has his place too. I don't want to collect out and
area....I want to go back year after year.

More later.

Not to be rude but, what laws are you talking about? This topic was about selling herps in parking lots and public places in CA and TN.

By the way I thought b_rickards idea to ban export of only meat, eggs and turtles over 2" was really good. It would allow big US exporters to still export cbb babies which could be raised in the country of consumption and still allow US hobbyist access to breeding stock and to breed and sell their cbb turtles. It would not take away any sales from collecters who aren't selling wc to overseas food markets and it would create more jobs in the country of consumption. The only downside I can see is that the price of turtle meat would go up in the short term overseas and they would probably sell less. Still, that's better for them in the long run because if take is not sustainable here then prices will go way up over there in the long run.

Aaron,

First of all, Andrew was updating us on at least four banning laws from around the country. The turtle agenda pushed by conservation groups and academics is also a banning agenda that has been in full swing now for several years without much fight from the industry. It has outlawed the sale of wild caught animals, which is wrong. I has outlawed the sale of captive born animals, which is wrong. It uses “hype” and it plays “fast and loose” with the facts to push an agenda and that is wrong. Agenda pushers use the excuse of the China trade to take way the rights of American citizens and that is wrong. This is what was used in Texas to ban the hobbyists, dealers and collectors while the food collectors can continue on with business a usual and that is wrong. So there is A LOT wrong with this agenda. And the turtle breeders have gotten screwed. We need to fight back against the banning agenda. Remember the slippery slope.

We need to stick to the proven arguments of the following: We need to support sustainable harvest. We need to support bag limits (not bans) for those species for which there is concern. We need to support the right to sell wild caught. We need to support no possession limits. We need to support the right to keep any species regardless of its assumed “danger.” So, Barry’s suggestion is bad because he proposes bans. If it is shown that the population of turtle species X can only support 100 adults a year that can be harvested then so be it. But if there is a ban on anything over 2 inches then you can’t do that. Not to mention the four inch rule is still in effect. What happens if a hobbyists in Germany wants to buy a pair of adult turtles? Under Barry’s law he couldn’t. This is bad for small businesses. I don’t like arbitrary bans that are not supported by data, plain and simple.

Don’t you think China has enough of our job’s already? Why not create jobs here in the US? With my approach, it is fair to all, it uses data and it creates a system for herps that is already used by every wildlife agency for game animals. It creates jobs for individuals through small businesses and it also creates jobs at wildlife agencies. How will it create jobs at wildlife agencies, you ask? They will need to monitor populations. They will need to manage harvest. They will need to track collectors. They can give jobs to recent college grads who can’t find work. There are very few jobs for the amount of people coming out of college, trust me on that one. They may also be able to fund academics through grants as well. My way is by far superior in so many ways. And we haven't even talked about the MASSIVE conservation benefits of my plan for herps.

That is why I have a problem with Barry’s plan.

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

Maybe I wasn't clear, what specific laws are you talking about? I went to the Center for Biological Diversity's website and under "Actions" I could find no turtle laws.

I still agree more with b_rickard because I think your suggestion would require huge increases in policing the field and massive amounts of study for which there is no funding and which would take years, if not decades to determine exact sustainable harvest on each and every species of turtle.

What b_rickard proposed was not a ban, it was controls on certain parts of the turtle trade that would only affect those collecting massive numbers of turtles for the food trade.

Aaron,

If you go to the turtle forums under "all other turtles" or what ever it is, you will see my post there with the article from Herp Digest.

You don't keep and breed any turtles do you? You don’t collect any turtle species do you? You don’t make your living with herps do you? You are not an exporter are you? You just don't want any commercial harvest so you see things from that perspective. IMO you also don't respect the rights and businesses of others because of this view. Which is your right, but bad for the herp industry IMO. You also don't understand or give enough credit to what a huge benefit to herp conservation and job creation my plan would enable. Most of all it would be fair and maybe you don't want fair?

You can easily come up with some reasonable regs and bag limits for every species in the US with the natural history and GAP data we have. Deer management is not EXACT. Saying we have to do that for herps is ridiculous. Do you think that total annual bag limits that are off by 100 let's say are going to matter? It won't. I think you will find any excuse to disagree with me. And I think it is more about the fact that you don't agree with the sale of wild caught. We know that bag limits and sustainable harvest works for game animals and fisheries. Herp harvest doesn't even come close to fish harvest numbers. There are so few people in the game it would be very easy to monitor and manage. Reasonable bag limits solve the issue without bans and it’s fair. To me that is so much more valid.

Barry only wants to stop food turtles to China? I don’t think so. How are you going to know if a turtle is for food or a hobbyist? You want to throw up arbitrary restrictions. You don’t want any accountability as to the design of the regulations just someone’s opinion and you think it is okay for us to restrict the freedoms of Americans for opinions and easy answers? I don’t. We do want things more closely regulated, remember? We want to require all harvesters (recreational and commercial) to be required to report what is collected. We need to know this data so we can better manage the resource. We want cage and husbandry standards. We want safety standards. We want clear, precise regulations that give us legal pathways to conduct our businesses (or hobbies) don’t we? We want wildlife agencies to be transparent, objective and justify their regulations with data so we can be sure no left wing AR agenda is being pushed, don’t we?

Here is what Barry proposes:

What I believe should be regulated instead is the export market. The law should be a TOTAL BAN on the export of any turtle over 2 inches overall length. If they implemented a BAN like this then they wouldn't need to BAN the catching of turtles because it wouldn't be worth the time to try and find hatchlings. In most states collecting eggs is illegal so if the exporters are not breeding themselves they will eventually go out of business or go to jail for nest robbing. Also, there should be a BAN on the export of turtle meat. This would curb the sale of adults to turtle slaughter facilities. The reason for this BAN would be to be sure that adults are not being caught, slaughtered, and sold for export.

What was that about Barry’s proposal not banning anything? It seems he wants to shut down any commercial harvest of herps. We know that is wrong and unacceptable. It isn’t just about food turtles to China, Aaron (remember TX). Remember, ONLY over-collection is what we want to ban not sustainable harvest and not sales of wild caught. I do support some bans. A ban on cruelty to animals. A ban on improper or lax husbandry. A ban on biased, agenda driven policy that has no scientific backing.

Or we can agree to disagree.

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

Everybody has an AGENDA, Mike. Most of us have an AGENDA to protect our herp populations for future generations, while still maintaining our ability to carry on and enjoy our chosen hobby-but NOT at the expense of said populations!

You seem to have an AGENDA to make sure you can make a buck off of our wild reptile resources-which is your call. The problem is you seem to give little or no thought to posterity. That is the difference between your stand and that of HCU, PIJAC and U.S. Ark-indeed, the vast majority of the herping community. And THAT is why you so often seem like a lone voice on this and many other forums, and so seldom enjoy the support of ANYONE else....

So ye,. we'll have to agree to disagree.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Brad,

How can you even make a comment when it is obvious you didn’t even read my posts? You are just on here to slander me. Let me set you straight on a few things, Brad. You and your little group ARE NOT the vast majority of the herping community. Sorry to burst your bubble there buddy. Not even close. Second USARK and PIJAC support the right of American citizens to sell wild caught herps. So the major groups are on my side NOT yours. How is that for your ego? It is an industry first and then a hobby, Brad. It isn’t all about you, sorry. If you knew anything about wildlife management you would know that sustainable harvest is the ONLY fair and data backed way to manage herp populations for which there is concern. This approach does conserve populations for future generations. You obviously are not intelligent enough to understand these principles. Now, go away if you are just going to misrepresent and slander me.

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

We'll have to agree to disagree, Mike-and I'll let the consensus decide what your and my REAlL positions are. However, a word of friendly advice- in future your credibility will increase if you can bring yourself to leave out the personal attacks.

To everyone else, just a little fact check-despite Mike's comments above, HCU (not a "little" organization, by the way) does not and has not differed from PIJAC and USARK's position on ANY legislation ....
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Brad,

My position is my position. I don’t care what anyone’s consensus is. I have a brain, I have education and I have experience. I am not a hypocrite and I don’t say one thing and do another like some in your group. I have stuck with the same valid arguments for the last three years. My credibility is not at issue here. I don’t personally attack anyone. I never have. I support positions, debate philosophy and call out hypocrites. You must be confused because I am the one that is called names and slandered. Facts are facts.

So does this mean that HCU is going to support the right of Americans to sell wild caught herps like USARK and PIJAC does? Does HCU now support the right of people to sell wild caught pythons and boas? Are you going to change your Constitution? This is great news. You have finally come to your senses. It is about time.

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

Bull, you attacked me from the get go!

Barry,

No, I attacked your policy position not you personally. I wasn't the one calling you an idiot and other names, remember, that was you.

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

I feel like you are putting words in my mouth. I have never said I was against sale of wild caught. I said I thought it was harder to manage because it is more costly to enforce and that if we don't have detailed, long term studies it is more risky for populations.

Despite b_rickards use of the word ban, what he described was not a ban. A ban is when you can do nothing, no capture, no possession, no breeding, no sales. His proposal is the most cost effective and realistic, IMHO. There was nothing he said that would prevent you from selling some adults to US turtle hobbyist and farmers. It would not prevent foriegn hobbyist from obtaining cbb breed stock and it would not prevent foriegn food markets from buying small, cbb turtles which they could then raise to processing size. It is easier to enforce because wildlife officials can just inspect boxes as they go out, rather than having to have field officers all over the place.

So I am not philosophically opposed to all sales of wild caught. I only responded because I thought b_rickard's idea was pretty good and it was unwarranted to flat out say it's people like him that cause bans. I do not know him either.

Aaron,

Points taken but I disgaree. I have explained why I disgaree and you have explained why you support. Barry's plan is not horrible but like I said it is arbitrary. I don't support arbitrary. I support transparent, unbiased data backed reasoning to impose regulations. That is my position. Arbitrary regulations continue to advance the slippery slope and I am against the slippery slope. To me people that support the slippery slope and arbitrary regs are bad for the industry. Which is why I don't agree with your and Barry's position. I agree that it is easier to enforce but I don't want easier to enforce, I want fair. Arbitrary regs without supporting data are not fair. Arbitrary regs take away people's rights. And my position will also create jobs here in the US. It will put much more focus on herp populations which is good for the herp populations. I don't think you can really argue with that. My plan is better by far for herp populations in the long run. Instead of saying "we don't know" we can say "we know" when it comes to the health of herp populations. Do you understand what I mean? I think we have said our peace on this.

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

Ok,
Now I need to explain something here. The trade in endangered animals in China is big business. Here is a photo of an example of what I found at one food market in 2001.

Now, I don't care what anybody thinks about my proposal. It is fair to the serious exporters that take the time to hatch turtles from their own animals.
You cannot and will not sustain a balanced environment at the rate that we are allowing adult turtles to be taken from their natural environment. This is a proven fact, that is well known by all parties at all levels of the scientific community WORLD WIDE!
So, with that said, by anybody suggesting that money, rights of man, or American this or that, your argument is completely baseless and naive.
Your basic human rights are not being violated by implementing a ban, partial ban, or even total ban of the harvest of turtles for commercial purposes. If you do not have the interest of the environment as your number one priority I propose one thing. Go out, get in your vehicle, drive to the highest point in your area, press the gas pedal until your reach the highest cruising speed and leave this great earth.
You are not the only person living or breathing on this planet, nor will you be the last. Money is not everything, and neither is material wealth. These animals were here long before you were and they will be here long after you, God willing!

Now, I am a reptile hobbyist. I keep and breed turtles and snakes. I am concerned about the well-being of all animals. I am NOT A MEMBER OF PETA OR HSA or any other anti pet organization. I am not saying we cannot keep these animals. I believe you should be able to keep venomous animals, large constrictors, and all that. All I want is to be able to go outside in 50 years and see a common snapper in the river by my house. At the rate that we are going, you will not be able to. Period!

"Everyone is responsible for everything happening on earth."
- Fjodor Dostojevskij

another pic

more

These are critically endangered. If you dont believe me, ask Peter Paul Van Dijk

This seller had these animals. She sold all of them and went into her back room and filled the basket again. She did this a total of 3 times while I was standing there watching her!

Those are Geomyda Spengleri.... I wish I had them all...

This is real simple. You can either sell all of our native species to the Chinese or you can let them raise hatchlings themselves. There is no other alternative.

Barry,

There are many alternatives. I have already detailed the best alternative for you. Correct me if I am wrong but, I didn't see one US species in any of your pictures.

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

When you're right, you're right.
Sounds good to me.
Allow wild caughts to be collected here in the states
and allow only hatchlings and captive raised to be exported.

Question:

How come the Chinese aren't breeding themselves?
Turtles that is.....they've done real well at breeding more
Chinese!

Barry,

You are wrong, buddy. It is quite obvious that you are way to emotional about this to debate reasonably.

Let’s go through some of your post. If the Chinese are selling Endangered turtles w/o permits then these folks are poachers. They are breaking the law. The law that is already on the books. If they are not going to follow the law now they will not follow it when banning regs are enacted that shut down collectors, dealers and breeders in the US.

“It is fair to the serious exporters that take the time to hatch turtles from their own animals.”

It is not fair. You are saying that they can’t export any wild caught. That is a ban and that is wrong. You are against the sale of wild caught that is clear. Okay, you have the right to that position but you don’t have the authority to take away the rights of other US citizens because of YOUR views. I am sorry but it doesn’t work that way. This is the United States of America NOT the United States of Barry.

“You cannot and will not sustain a balanced environment at the rate that we are allowing adult turtles to be taken from their natural environment. This is a proven fact, that is well known by all parties at all levels of the scientific community WORLD WIDE!”

This is not a proven fact. It is an opinion. This opinion may have some merit based on the natural history of turtles and the amount being harvested. So since there is a concern we should stop unregulated collection and manage harvest at sustainable levels. Not ban harvest and not ban sales.

“So, with that said, by anybody suggesting that money, rights of man, or American this or that, your argument is completely baseless and naive.”

No Barry you are wrong. It is not baseless and naïve it is fair, smart and wise. You are pushing into extremism here. Extremism never works and it is bad for all.

“If you do not have the interest of the environment as your number one priority I propose one thing. Go out, get in your vehicle, drive to the highest point in your area, press the gas pedal until your reach the highest cruising speed and leave this great earth.”

You are losing touch with reality in this statement. Yes, the environment is vitally important to life on earth but wise use of natural resources is the ONLY way to go.

“You are not the only person living or breathing on this planet, nor will you be the last. Money is not everything, and neither is material wealth. These animals were here long before you were and they will be here long after you, God willing!”

You are, also, not the only person living on this planet. Money is not everything but it is required to live on this planet. And the guy that may or may not “live in the sky” has nothing to do with it.

“All I want is to be able to go outside in 50 years and see a common snapper in the river by my house. At the rate that we are going, you will not be able to. Period!”

I to want to be able to see herps later in life as well. Sustainable harvest allows this. It allows harvest and continuation of the species forever. You need to really research harvest and wildlife management. It is not collectors you need to worry about, Barry, it is habitat destruction, human population growth, the impacts of roads, pollution and climate change. Those are the issues that can cause extinction. Collecting doesn’t usually cause extinctions. Now, over-collecting could cause some major issues with populations. Which is why we should stop over-collection.

I can tell by your post that you are extremely blinded by the banning agenda pushed by AR groups, academics and conservation groups. Believe it or not I used to be like you before I educated myself about animal populations and harvest. There are ways to harvest in a sustainable way all herp species that are not listed as Endangered or Threatened. That is just reality. I understand that you are worried. Bag limits and other management tools do work and they allow folks to access to wild populations without over-exploiting them.

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

Ok,
You need to come to Iowa and see what is going on here with the harvesting of turtles. Or for that matter any other state that does not have any bag limits. This is the angle I am coming from. In Iowa, I can get a commercial harvester permit for $100. I can then collect as many painteds, snappers, softies that I want. Period. There is no further regulations. I personally know a trapper that caught 20 ton of snapper in one season from one place. Is this what you want? Because without any restrictions in this state, this is what you get. Without restrictions, bans, or whatever you are going to deplete the population and it will crash. This may be my opinion, but it is well know fact in the scientific community.
About the pictures, these are only examples of what was available in 2001 and 2002. Most of the species available then are no longer offered. The Chinese now offer American species. If you think it is ok to offer up our animals for medicinal and spook medicine, well then by all means!

should read 2 tons not 20.
Dont want to confuse anybody here.

Just go to any chinatown in the USA. DBT's are there, sometimes by the caseload, along with other species.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xO4KRlTZh7E&feature=channel_page

Certainly an example of legislation most herpers would agree we can oppose in good conscience-hard to imagine how such bills could have any scientific justification!
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....