Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Lillie, my striped JCP began to lay her eggs Thursday, 3/5, and appeared to be finished by around 1:30 AM on Friday, the 6th. Because this is her first clutch, I opted for artificial incubation. Perhaps a mistake in retrospect.

As I began to remove Lillie from the perfect clutch whcih she was beginning to gather and coil around, I noticed she wasn't done...in fact, she had a few more to go. Having already disturbed her and taken the clutch, I placed them in the incubator and her back in her nestbox in hopes that she would finish. To date she has not.

Sunday, 3/8, after speaking to an available exotics vet (not my regular), I lubricated her cloaca, and went a step further examining the closest egg to the cloaca which was soft and pliable. I followed this up with a warm water soak and left her overnight.

On Monday, the 9th, I took the 2 hour drive to my regular exotics vet. Upon examination, he came to the same conclusion of soft, healthy eggs as I had. He added that she is also very healthy and well hydrated. After some attempts to manually move the eggs down to her cloaca, Dr. Stuart gave her her first injection of oxytocin. After instruction on how to give the injection, I was sent home with several doses.

Because of my doctor's experience and the talks I've had with several people here, I'm not overly concerned, but I'm still concerned. She's had several doses of the drug, and last night I placed her eggs back in with her in hopes that it would help her feel more secure and bring about contractions.

Has anyone here had this experience, and how did it work out? She is not looking uncomfortable, or acting irregularly, but I am concerned as to how long this can go on. I am trying to put her health first, so I would like to make sure things are done in the least invasive way with the least amount of stress.

Has anyone had impacted females pass eggs after this much of a time lapse? How long before you would opt for having the eggs surgically removed? Keep in mind, they are soft and maleable, and not calcified.

Thanks in advance!

Mike Curtin
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"He who would stifle debate rather than engage in it, does so at the expense of his integrity and credibility"

Mike Curtin

Egg binding can happen for lots of different reasons. They can be very hard to distinguish. Because of this, different snakes handle egg impaction in different ways. I have seen colubrids retain an egg for an entire year and lay it the next year with their next healthy clutch! By the same token I have seen snakes die within days of becoming impacted.

A few important questions...

How many eggs are left? Has she shown any interest in food? Is she coiled with her eggs? What is her nesting area like?

For the future, the less stress you put on her the more likely she will be to continue to lay. Once you pull a snake out of her laying area and drive her to a vet etc you really reduce the chances that she will successfully lay on her own. If a female isn't done laying I would leave her clutch with her and make sure that her nesting area is as dark and quiet as possible.

I have only rarely heard of oxytosin injections working by itself and have never seen it with my own eyes. I would leave her and her eggs (if she is still coiled with them) alone for a few more days. After that I would remove the eggs, clean the whole cage and start offering food.

There are a few more things you're vet can do before surgery. Using a needle he can aspirate the egg closest to the vent. Hopefully allowing it and any behind it to pass. Careful manipulation can also be use to move eggs closer to the vent. However if gentle pressure does not move them DO NOT FORCE IT.

Good luck and please let us know how she does.

Thanks, Zach.

"How many eggs are left? Has she shown any interest in food? Is she coiled with her eggs? What is her nesting area like?"

Her nestbox is the one she used to begin laying. It's an opaque sterilite type container (approx. 12"x8"x10" with an entry hole in the top. It is lined w/ slightly damp sphagnum. Her enclosure is in the highest, low traffic area in the room, and I have since papered the front to minimize her seeing me even during basic maintenance of the rest of my collection.

"For the future, the less stress you put on her the more likely she will be to continue to lay. Once you pull a snake out of her laying area and drive her to a vet etc you really reduce the chances that she will successfully lay on her own. If a female isn't done laying I would leave her clutch with her and make sure that her nesting area is as dark and quiet as possible."

I think in this case, my major mistake was removing the clutch, as I did not realize she was not done until after that had already been done. At this time (early Friday morning), I returned her to the box and she was left alone until late Sunday night, at which time I attempted lubricating the cloaca and palpating the remaining eggs out without success. She was then brought to the vet on Monda morning (in the nestbox, transported in a warm cooler to minimize stress).

"I have only rarely heard of oxytosin injections working by itself and have never seen it with my own eyes. I would leave her and her eggs (if she is still coiled with them) alone for a few more days. After that I would remove the eggs, clean the whole cage and start offering food."

I have yet to see any results with the Oxytocin, and since returning her eggs Wednesday, she has been loosely coiled around them.

"There are a few more things you're vet can do before surgery. Using a needle he can aspirate the egg closest to the vent. Hopefully allowing it and any behind it to pass. Careful manipulation can also be use to move eggs closer to the vent. However if gentle pressure does not move them DO NOT FORCE IT."

Aspiration is being considered, and lubrication, followed by gentle manipulation has failed thus far. In addition, my main concern with this is the amount of time that has passed. According to Mader, there is the possibility of the eggs starting to break down and adhering to the uterine wall. I would hate to attempt this and injure her.

"Good luck and please let us know how she does."

Thanks...I'll keep you posted.
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"He who would stifle debate rather than engage in it, does so at the expense of his integrity and credibility"

Mike Curtin

Bringing her in the nest box was a good idea. I'll have to start telling people that at the hospital.

The good thing is that she is still acting healthy. If she does need surgery it usually goes smoothly and I have seen a few snakes continue breeding the next year.

If I opt for surgery, I won't try to breed her for at least another year or two (unless advised otherwise). I'll be discussing this further as soon as this girl's out of the woods. The only way I'd attempt it would be if the risk is minimal, and/or if it would be advantageous in order to prevent scarring or atrophy. I have no knowledge if this is even a possibility, but like I said, I'll definitely keep you posted.

Thanks for the help.
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"He who would stifle debate rather than engage in it, does so at the expense of his integrity and credibility"

Mike Curtin

I've seen Oxytocin work in some Turtles and Tortoises, but never any snakes, whether egglayers or live bearers. The Chemical cues have passed, so she's not going to lay them on her own. So you're either going to have to opt for Surgery, or try to get them out yourself. You'd have to devote a good part of the day if you were trying to palpate them out. I wouldn't aspirate them yet, I would use that as your last option prior to surgery.
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South Central Herpetological

Ok, I HAVE seen Oxytocin work, on a Malayan pit viper, and the results were dramatic, but it was 20 years ago.

Mike, I was gonna email you, but since we had talked about the problem, I've had a bit of the same problem. My Carpondro laid her eggs, but one small slug was retained just in front of the cloaca. I did nothing, and she passed it about 3 days later on her own. However, there seems to be something else much further up that has not passed. She laid on the 8th, but I'm going to the vet with her on Monday to see if we can either do an x-ray or sonogram to see if they are indeed, eggs. She was still "shivering" as of 2 days ago, but seems to have stopped now. My vet is a very good snake vet, so I'll keep you posted.
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1.0 Blackheaded pythons
2.4 Woma
3.2 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.3 Bloods
2.2 IJ Carpets
2.0 Coastal Carpets
1.3 Macklotts
1.2 F2 Carpondros
2.1 Jungle Carpet
1.0 Jag IJCP
0.1 Carpondro
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow boas
1.1 Striped Bolivian Boas
0.1 Madagascar Tree Boa
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

Thanks....waiting on the vet right now to call me back so we can discuss some other options....no change as of yet.
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"He who would stifle debate rather than engage in it, does so at the expense of his integrity and credibility"

Mike Curtin

The most successful treatment I have seen and heard of is aspiration of all of the eggs that have been retained. The shells are usually readily passed over a period of time, or can sometimes be removed by palpation. I agree as well that oxytocin rarely works when administered to pythons, and probably won't have a chance of working if a calcium solution is not administered concurrently.

Kelly

Before Oxy, was Pitocin (sp?) used. I think that one was first.
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1.0 Blackheaded pythons
2.4 Woma
3.2 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.3 Bloods
2.2 IJ Carpets
2.0 Coastal Carpets
1.3 Macklotts
1.2 F2 Carpondros
2.1 Jungle Carpet
1.0 Jag IJCP
0.1 Carpondro
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow boas
1.1 Striped Bolivian Boas
0.1 Madagascar Tree Boa
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

n/p

I was thinking that, but wasn't positive. Wife's a nurse, she couldn't remember. When I saw it being used on a (corrected) Ceylonese pit viper, it took about 5 minutes to work, and seemed to be rather harsh as far as contractions went. It WAS effective, tho.
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1.0 Blackheaded pythons
2.4 Woma
3.2 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.3 Bloods
2.2 IJ Carpets
2.0 Coastal Carpets
1.3 Macklotts
1.2 F2 Carpondros
2.1 Jungle Carpet
1.0 Jag IJCP
0.1 Carpondro
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow boas
1.1 Striped Bolivian Boas
0.1 Madagascar Tree Boa
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

Agreed, while there is an apparent spectrum from oviparity to viviparity in snakes, it does seem like oxytocin may be more effective in viviparous species than it is with inducing egg laying in oviparous species. The physiology of viviparity may possibly be more conducive to the effects of oxytocin.

Kelly