Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Sorry if I ramble but this experience has me very shook up. And I no longer feel I can trust my reptile vet.

I have a 2yr old male that's been off his feed, nothing new to bps I know. He's almost 3' long and only 550g, hasn't eaten since Nov. His spine stands out but he's still well muscled and active.

I took him in to the local rep vet because he was a little bubbly. Vet prescribed oral baytril and said he wanted to try force feeding. This was about a month ago. Bubbles are almost gone and he was acting a little more normal, but lost 20g.

I was very hesitant about the force-feeding, I've never done it and have heard how stressful it can be, but I trusted the vet. I brought him in today and they had a defrosted mouse sitting in a bowl of water.

He lubed the mouse and grabbed with short necked hemostats. He grabbed Zehava behind the head tightly, his poor eyes started to bug out, and his neck was cocked at an angle. At first I thought everything was going well... He slowly pushed the mouse down Z's throat, then Z started to resist, the mouse burst open and the vet resorted to using a tongue depressor to shove it down his throat, I could see it pushing out against his neck 2" down his throat!

After being released Z barely moved!! I know it takes it out of them but he couldn't even realign his jaw! He used his body to drag his head around and looked like a limp fish, gasping for air. His mouth was deep purple and mouse juice (sorry I know it's nasty, but it wasn't just blood) was all over, I'm sure he breathed some in. The doc commented on his color and said he never had one act like this after force-feeding.

Zehava tried to regurge and the doc forced it down again, shoving 3-4" of wooden tongue depressor down his throat. My boyfriend finally took him and gently massaged his neck to work it down, and he's kept it down.

Vet said prognosis is guarded!!! He was doing ok before we brought him in, but now he barely moves. I'm really questioning the vets competence in this.

On the hot car-ride home Z started to show a few signs of life and closed his mouth, curled up against my boyfriend, instead of just lying limp, sucking air. I think the vet actually strangled him!! And who knows what damage was done to his throat. I'm even questioning the food, I've never had a f/t burst open before, don't know if it was even defrosted properly.

He's home now and in his tank, wouldn't even crawl to his hide. Boyfriend had to position Z and place hide on top, finding a warm (85-88*) spot with the temp gun.

Please give me some advice on this, I'm out of my league in this matter. Don't know if I should say anything about the vet. What can I do to help Z? I've always trusted doc's orders before and am now at a loss as to what to do.

Sorry this was so long, I'd really appreciate any advice.

Thanks,

Allison

Force feeding is stressful but should not turn the snakes mouth blue or purple. I don't know what happened but I would keep the snake quiet and warm , offer water, and provided he keeps this down try small prey in about another 10 days. I don't want to scare you but I have seen two different snakes die after being force fed two or three days prior. Keep a close eye on him for more upper respiratory signs as well. Some times stress will bring on a second bout of congestion.
I am not a vet, or even close but I use small prey only to force feed and I use a simple round pencil (eraser end) to push the mouse. Just my opinion but a tongue depressor is aweful wide to stick down the throat. Keep us posted on his recovery. I am curious what the others will say about this but I wish the very best for your snake.
Brenda

My advice is get a new vet. If a snake is being treated for some sort of respiratory infection then they shouldn't be eating anyway let alone being force fed. Also oral baytril is not the way to go either. How many treatments did he do with the baytril?

Usually the treatment for snakes is something like baytril and fortaz every three days for nine treatments. Baytril and fortaz are injected into the upper 1/3 of the snake. Hope this helps.

Mark

that Jeffrey Yohe from Columbia ,Pa says he is stupid and should stop treating snakes....really....he wants my phone number I'll give it to him....

....the only thing I do is change the habitat or food to get them to eat.....

if they still don't eat......they're problem........they'll eat sooner or later............

.......anyways...welcome to the world of snakes and vets...happens all the time....took one snake to a vet one time and told him exactly what to do...he did what I told him I did not want to do because it would kill her...he did it, she died the next morning......told him so......

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..J Yohe ....

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Folks that call themselves "reptile vets" are often not even close. Checking out the ARAV website will help you find a knowledgeable herp vet near you next time.

Never even heard of these guys? How long have they been around?

Their home office is less than a mile from my home!! I walk by it on the way to work on a regular basis.

Well, I know who I'm taking my business to from now on!!

Thanks for the awesome contact!

Allison

still can't stop laughing, probably from the stressful day, time for a drink!

Thank you all for your support and advice. I truly appreciate it.

Put his tank in the closet to keep him out of traffic, and kept him warm, but he regurged anyway after an hour. Seemed to feel better after doing so as well.

On a hunch I checked the temp of the food, 80* and this is after quite some time in a warm/hot environment. I think it was still cold in the middle when fed.

Now, 7 hours later he seems to be acting, mostly, like his old self. Active and flicking his tongue, thermoregulating himself now. Keeping my fingers crossed, but I think he'll pull through.

This is a vet that I found through Reptile Magazine's annual rep vet listings.

Thanks all,

Allison

Since this was such a horrible experience for him, and he did regurge, how long do you all think I should wait before trying to feed him again?

I'd actually call the vet and ask for my money back because the snake didn't hold down the food.....and balls usually do not regurge.....

......I'd wait a couple weeks...then try live mice, rat fuzz then gerbil in that order a few days apart......

and the snake sould be at around 84 degrees?...with a hotter spot if he wants it is possible......
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..J Yohe ....

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Lol, I think I will ask for a refund!

And the snake is around 84-86, that's where he's keeping himself, though he could warm up or cool down if he chooses, plenty of room and a good thermal gradient.

The food that came back up was 80* which is why I think he regurged after having kept it down for over an hour, I suspect it was still cold in the middle and it didn't agree with him. Just my guess, could be totally off here...

Thanks again

Allison

I had a juvie ball go 9 months without food. The meal your vet used was probably too big. Mine was force fed after 6 months, but with a frozen PINKY! Went down nice, he held it well, didn't eat for another 3 months, and then out of no where he finally took a small mouse. I offered every 7 days for the entire 9 months. He ate when he felt like it. Good luck.
Matt Z.

Same here. My 6 foot boa wouldn't eat for 5 months and the vet used a rat fuzzy to force feed. It went down really easy. There is no reason to use someting so large that it takes real FORCE. I hope your little guys is ok.

Thanks, he's doing well today. Except his whole mouth/throat seems to be bothering him, small surprise.

He was eating med rats before he went off his feed, I think he could have been fed that mouse if the vet weren't pinching his neck so tight

most of the time a vet is no good they just cost you money and are only good for prescribing you a prescription you cant normaly get. you may find some good vets that really do know what they are doing but i have found even "reptile" vets dont really know much more than i do i stopped going to them after having a few of my reptiles die after going. one time one prescribed me a tiny bottle of cod liver oil charged me $10.00 so i ended up leaving with a $50 bill well later on i found out i could have got the codliver oil at the store for around $5 for alot more. another time i went in and mentioned my 5.0 zoomed light and he had to look it up had no idea what uvb was. anyway my point is half the time its better to reserch your self. i never forse feed i have assist fed whitch is simular but in stead of forcing it down there throught you place it in there mouth and just little down and try to get them to take it the rest of the way down. i had a wild caught female lay eggs and never ate a year passed i kept trying and nothing she got really skinny and i almost put her in the freezer i tryed everything even african soft furs and she just would not eat finaly a few months over a year i said ok she has not ate in over a year i have tryed assist feeding and everything its time to put her in there i tryed one more time with a soft fur she ate it! so its possible for them to go with out food for a real long time as long as they are healthy and fat to begin with she eats non stop now and is breeding now !
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reed&Sunny at www.ReedsDragons.com & www.KillerEnclosures.com

I have to say I haven't learned anything from the vets that I didn't already know a lot about from researching on my own. I always read a lot about a problem before making an appointment so I know what treatments to suggest. And, yes, they do jack up the prices on stuff that you could normally get on your own just fine, I was charged 10.50 for that force feed and he didn't charge for an office visit which is about 50.

I have never thought about force feeding, or even assist feeding any of my guys until this vet said we should. I've always been of the mindset that if it's not hungry it won't eat, when it's hungry it will, I just change up the food and make sure the husbandry spot on and just keep trying.

Have a good friend that's a vet, just lives an hour away, not a reptile guy, but he is reasonable/sensible.

I wish I had a dime for every no-it-all home breeder who professes knowledge equal to, or above, a certified exotic veterinarian. I agree that BPs routinely go off feed for extended periods of time but that can also be attributed to an illness that WILL BE EXACERBATED BY PROLONGED STARVATION. Reptiles are much more difficult to diagnose early onset illness and most people only recognize symptoms when their animals are severely compromised. They then take them to a vet and complain when the animala aren't magically "fixed".

In this case it sounds like the prey item was possibly too large to force feed although animals can react badly (ie forcibly regurge) when presented (Force feeding or other methods) with food in an unusual setting like a vet clinic.

Vet medicine has made giant strides in the last 15 years. Unfortunately too many herp owners avoid taking their animals in and have many, many excuses for doing so.

I don't think the person slamming vets was referring to a certified exotic veterinarian. They were referring to the vets that work with cats and dogs and will not admit when they don't have a clue to when it comes to an animal that they have any knowledge about but it may lead to a 50.00 visit; caching.

That is all,
Bill

some are afraid of snakes
some just don't work with snakes
some say they do ,but really don't know squat
some say they do ,and know, but do wrong things anyways
some jack prices above and beyond normal practices(they do this because it is illegal to sell you antibiotics that they just sold you)....hmmm.....
etc etc etc

........grabbing any ball by the throat is really going to be a bad experience for both you and it....no matter where you do it or when....even if it is albut dead....it will fight more than it should and they roll that head at such a close angle to the neck.....it's a total pain.....rather have them eat gerbils than have to deal with grabbing them at all....

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..J Yohe ....

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I do agree that not every vet is qualified to work with reptiles (and why would we think that any vet is qualified to work with all species?) but if we are going to generalize then:
some human Drs stink (and they specialize in only ONE species)
some mechanics stink
some teachers stink
some firefighters stink
some EMS personnel stink
The list could go on for an eternity. Should one forgo using the above mentioned people/services? It's our responsibility to find and use those professionals that are capable. Using a broad brush and saying that most vets are incapable of treating reptiles is just plain wrong. The pervasive mistrust of academia/veterinarians/other professionals in the herp field by the lay community is baffling to me. Talk to a qualified exotic vet, you may learn something. Better yet, you may learn many things.

I agree with that. thought......

mechanics ,usually fix what they THINK is wrong with the car...
not always getting it correct, but doesn't care, you'll bring it back and get him more cash

doctors....even the ones that are specialists....alot...suck, ask my nephew...after 9 months he still has tree bark IN his cheek and after all the cutting and adding pieces...he is still in process of being healed.....and finally seeing a lawyer...

teachers....alot suck....teacher of the year....yea...might have been the only one that actually did their job...not many do...they are lazy and hate their job usually....look how I turned out.....HA!

vets......how many herp specialist are there?.....only in big zoos?...probably.......underpaid? maybe...I do not know...

mechanics at factories...overpaid and coffe drinkers....lazy usually.....not all.....but sometimes.....most....yes...it's lazy managements fault....they too usually suck....

can you get my idea of the world...?......

...anyways.........balls that have grown for more then a year should not be force fed....unless totally properly done ,very very thin, and as part of just getting the gut to restart...could try vitamins and Nutri-Bac also...hmmm....

.........anyways......this is getting very old......Thanxx anyways........
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..J Yohe ....

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>>I do agree that not every vet is qualified to work with reptiles (and why would we think that any vet is qualified to work with all species?) but if we are going to generalize then:
>>some human Drs stink (and they specialize in only ONE species)

One which can answer questions too!

>>some mechanics stink
>>some teachers stink
>>some firefighters stink
>>some EMS personnel stink

after some subsitute any profession.

>>The list could go on for an eternity. Should one forgo using the above mentioned people/services? It's our responsibility to find and use those professionals that are capable. Using a broad brush and saying that most vets are incapable of treating reptiles is just plain wrong. The pervasive mistrust of academia/veterinarians/other professionals in the herp field by the lay community is baffling to me. Talk to a qualified exotic vet, you may learn something. Better yet, you may learn many things.

Well said. A good reptile vet is priceless. A bad one useless. Do your homework. Start at the Association of reptile and Amphibian Veterinarians. At least this org's members have taken the effort to join and (hopefully) read the news it provides.

If you'd like to add to my list of reptile breeding veterinarians then please post their names.
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AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

The Association of Reptile and Amphibian Veterinarians

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AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

I should have clarified my earlier statement. And I don't want to discourage people from seeking the help of a professional.

I have not learned anything from this particular vet that I didn't already know from my own research. I do not profess to be a know-it-all, nor even as experienced as many of you. I fully intend to continue taking my animals to qualified professionals, I found one on the ARAV site that I'll be consulting tomorrow.

My snake, my husbandry, my fault if it gets sick. Totally. Never expect miracle cure, reps don't get sick quick, don't get better quick.

i do think vets are a good thing and can do amazing things if you get the right one however there are a lot of things you can fix your self by reserch and yes alot of people dont bring in a reptile until its to lost there are the pros and the cons of everything if you can fix it your self by reserch and everything there is nothing wrong with it. if you have money dont mind paying for something you can get cheaper do it. its like my real job i do lawns some of the customers are old ladys that can not do it them selfs they have to have me do it then there are the ones i never see that dont have time to take care of there yard so i do it then there are the ones i see every time i go that are retired or have the money and just dont want to deal with it its all kinda the same in reptiles. we can not and did not say do not go to a vet just a lot of times you can figure it out your self and get stuff your self for a third of what some charge if your new to reptiles use a vet until you know what your doin
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reed&Sunny at www.ReedsDragons.com & www.KillerEnclosures.com

Keep him warm and let him recuperate - make sure he's got plenty of fresh water. In a few weeks try a live mouse if he doesn't take it try assist feeding him a small feeder item (rat pink or fuzzy) if he gets it down great if not don't force it -- you can also try a slurry of pedialyte and some chicken baby food given by feeding tube - a bit less offensive than force feeding a rodent but it will get some nutrients back in his belly. But if he remains active and alert I wouldn't be too concerned about his lack of feeding (given that his illness is gone) as it's that time of year and he'll most likely pick up when he is ready.

Good luck!
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Tosha
JET Pythons
Toshas Blog

But if he remains active and alert I wouldn't be too concerned about his lack of feeding (given that his illness is gone) as it's that time of year and he'll most likely pick up when he is ready. I agree with Tosha here.

Despite the vets direct technique,the snake has had some nutrition and should be good to go until it goes back on feed, hopefully with the season change. I believe the vet would have been better served not to have performed this service right in front of you(the obviously very concerned owner). If it saves the snakes life it will have been worth it I guess. If I have a case where a snake is in mortal danger due to lack of food (this takse a LONG timein most cases), I would prefer to use the slurry recipe or one similar to the one Tosha mentioned in last post. I like the slurry method because you can get the fluids & electrolytes, along with an exact and highly nutritional package of food in levels and quantities you control and you can add vitamens and medecines to the mix if you need to. Also, tubing the snake and feeding a slurry is less stressful(IMO), easier for the snake to digest, and less likely to end with a regurg.

Slurries can be an effective tool to help a starving snake.

Alan

I too thought that as long as he was active and alert that he would be okay as long as there were no other health concerns. The vet insisted that he needed this, so I complied.

I really wasn't too concerned about his direct technique until he jammed the tongue depressor down his throat, even then I thought he knew best. Just couldn't get over the fact that I brought in a thin but active snake and left with one that seemed to barely cling to life, with a 'guarded' prognosis.

I had suggested feeding the slurry recipe I found in the ball book I have, similar to Toshas. I thought it would be less stressful, vet didn't agree, and said there was a higher chance of regurge with it. Said we would have to hold him head straight up for 30 min so he would 'maybe' keep it down.

Cassity or ANYONE, please do not let this one experience completely shun you away from Reptile Vets. I work at an exotics-equipped animal hospital, and I can assure you not all Reptile Vets are bad.

When your snake is sick, you should not try to take the matter into your own hands, you should seek professional help. I hate [bleep] people that come in to our hospital with a snake, dog, cat, or lizard thinking they know everything or have one-up on their vet -- Thank God for the internet!! Who needs 8 years worth of college and a degree??

Cassity, your vet is an idiot, and not obviously not even remotely a true Reptile-Experienced Veterinarian. I promise, not all reptile vets are like this one. I WOULD demand my money back, write to someone, and never return.

Baytril/Enroflazacin or Fortaz/Ceftazadine is the acceptable medication for treating a URI. However, orally is not the way to go with a snake, lizard, or reptile. Subcutaneous or Intramuscular Injections are the most affective.

I highly doubt your vet really "choked" your snake, unless she really pinched off his airway with the hemostats (snakes should never be clamped down with hemostats). My reasoning for this is because you can actually see the trachea of your snake -- it is in the back of the mouth where the glottis starts. It sounds like his lethargy afterwards was complete physical & mental shock from the ridiculous amount of stress and trauma she enforced on your poor ball.

Force feeding a ball python with an underlying illness, such as a URI, should only be force fed if the snake's life is in danger due to its lack of nutrition. Phil is right, no food can exasperate an illness. However, if the snake is generally healthy keeping up muscle and body weight, I would think waiting until the treatment of the infection is complete would be okay.

If your snake really was loosing weight and its spine is really protruding, he should be force fed something like Carnivore Care or A/D. Force feeding actual food-items such as rodents, should only be done to a picky eater, not a sick animal, in order to not exasperate the illness. Even than, force feeding should be a small amount, no matter what.

I hope this helps. And I hope everyone heeds my advice.
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Cheers!
• Chelsea Lynn Gardiner
(and Frank M. Wood)

Edited on March 17, 2009 at 00:41:19 by PHGinger.