Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Part II: My 1st Litter Ever! Omg!

Ok here's the final count (as best as I could tell):
5 Slugs
3 Normals het albino
2 Hypos het albino
5 Albino
5 Sunglow
= 15 babies in all

The boa gods were very generous and gave me great odds on the albinos and sunglows.

Now this story takes a serious turn. This is a LONG read. I'm sorry.

The boa gods giveth, and the boa gods taketh away.

There is a lot of "back story". So I will try to give the highlights.
My motorcycle is my sole means of transportation. I recently broke down and a buddy dropped everything, to pick up me and my bike. I thought I had the problem fixed, but broke down again two days later. The same friend came to my rescue, again. I owe this guy a BIG favor (IMO).

Babies are born. Momma is removed from the cage and put into a cage that is waiting for her. One albino is still born. Another is alive, but has severe spinal deformaties and is culled. I leave the restof them, to break out of sacks and move around, to work the goo off.

When I think they are ready, I work them to one side of the cage, so I can clean up the goo and lay down the paper towels. I lined the cage floor with paper towels and wet it down with warm water. Then I put the babies down, to clean up some more. At this point noticed a few, that seemed very weak/lethargic.Within a few hours, an albino passes. I kind of saw that one coming.

Now I figure it's time to leave them be. I leave the room. My g/f, stays watch. She has not a had any interest in the boas, since I got them 3 years ago. Having witnessed the birth, she is now fully intrigued. Later she calls up, trouble. I have lost a sunglow. Now I'm concerned that something must be wrong. I have baby racks but didn't intend to use them for day or two. I decide to get them fired up.

My buddy calls and needs a BIG favor. He is going to purchase a vehicle and needs my expertise, in a city that's an hour away. I did not get to set up the racks. I turn up the heat a little in case they need it. Then I reluctantly go and leave my poor ill prepared g/f, to keep an eye on things. The task took a good 3.5 hours before I got back home. In that time we managed to lose one albino and two sunglows. I am well into bitter frustration and panic mode.

Something has GOT to be wrong. I'm reading and re-reading the boa keepers guide. The babies are in the exact same cage that they were born in. So I know the cage is getting heat and I even cranked the heat up 3-4 degrees. Plus the heat probe for the cage stack is in the very same cage. We were misting them with warm water too. Yet the paper towels seem too cool.

I decide to change tactics. I pull the babies out and completely strip, clean and dry the cage. I put fresh dry paper towels and put the babies back in. This time, I leave the hot spot dry and only wet a few spots down. Soon after, another sunglow falls. By now, I've all but given up.

Why only the albinos/sunglows? Not one of the normal hets,or hypos has fallen. Why? Are their darker colors helping them retain just enough heat? Is the temperature difference that subtle, yet that life threatening? I think that somehow, that was the case. After switching to the drier set up, I quickly lost the one sunglow, but no more after that. I think that somehow, the broad surface area of wet paper towels, allowed the moisture to cool too much. There is a ceiling fan in the room, that I'm sure is a contributing factor. However, that fan is in the same place and same setting,it has been on, since the male/female introduction. This was however, my first time using a cage in this fashion.

At the moment, I have only have these left:
3 Normals het albino
2 Hypos het albino
1 Albino
1 Sunglow

I am devastated beyond words, by the losses.

This has been an emotional roller coaster:
The satisfaction of seeing my sunglow project work out.
The sheer joy of watching all those beautiful babies come to life.
The amazement of watching my g/f turn around and share these moments with me and actually pull for the babies. She had been fed up with the boas and was heavily pressuring me to get rid of them. As we were losing babies, she broke down and cried for me and the babies.
Then there's the pain and torture of having my dream project collapse in front of me and my g/f becoming an emotional wreck.

I understand It's a learning process and some lessons are hard learned, but damn it, not on a litter of sun glows.
Sorry, frustration seeping out.

I can't change what has passed, but only strive to better myslef, for the sake of the remaining babies and any possible future litters.

Thank you ALL, for sharing this experience with me.

I will focus on the positive side and be greatful for babies that did make it.

I will continue to post updates on the survivors, whichever way things go.

This was difficult for me to type/post. I know there will be lots of questions.
Please understand, if I don't log on/post/respond for a while.

I wish everyone big, healthy,long lived litters.

So sorry to hear that!!

Enjoy the little ones you do still have and try and remember, not all litters will be the same. Some are gonna suck, simply part of life. Don't let the bad overshadow the healthy ones you do have!!

With good husbandry, most litters will be just fine. We all constantly work on our husbandry and tweak this and that as we go. It's a constant learning process!!!
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Heart breaking for sure...I think most of us have been there at some point.

Almost sounds like Solidified Yolk...

Did the babies have big bellies?

First time Mom?
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Jeremy Payne
JB Reptile
Specializing in Boa Morph's
**Python's Coming Soon**

1.0 Snow "Kahl"
0.2 Triple Het Moonglow "Kahl"
0.1 Orange Tail Hypo Het Leopard
0.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow
1.0 Ghost
0.1 Possible Super Hypo
0.1 DH Ghost
1.1 "Kahl" Albino
1.0 Hypomelenistic
1.3 Pastel Hypo
0.1 Suriname/Columbian cross
0.1 Anerthrystic

1.1 Morelia Clastolepis **coming soon**

Wow, man, definitely a roller coaster. I feel bad for your losses but am still happy to here that your project (mostly) panned out. I hope you figure out what happened.

Are the Sire and Dam related at all? I'm wondering if there is a possibility of genetic defect. It wouldn't have to appear as some sort of deformity, but could be a metabolic, hormonal, or some other form of internal or chemical genetic defect. It seems odd that you are only losing the morphs. Strictly speaking the morphs that reptile hobbyists breed for are genetic defects/mutations and can have greater consequences than simply color and pattern changes. All types of defects and/or mutations can arise - everything from kinked spines, blindness, defective liver function, cardiac problems, even neurological difficulties and chemical imbalances can be triggered by an animals genetics.

If the sire and dam are related I would suggest possibly trying to breed the dam to an unrelated male in the future... preferably from a different breeder. I'm not saying the breeder you purchased them from is incompetent or anything like that, but purchasing from someone else would reduce the likelihood of receiving a related animal.

If your sire and dam are unrelated, I would still suggest attempting to breed the dam to a different male in the future. Maybe you could try a breeding loan with someone near you? Just be sure to let them know the difficulties you've had with this litter.

I would try for the same morphs in the breeding loan (have the other breeder do the same). This way you can see if the litters produced by either your sire or dam have the same types of fatalities in the breeding loan. If so, you would know which of your animals is the cause (carrier of the "bad" gene(s)... if it is a dominant trait) and would be able to move that animal into your "strictly pets" part of your collection.

This would end up being more of an experiment than a typical breeding and I would make sure that the other breeder knows this and to be fair, I would split both clutches with the other breeder... instead of keeping the neonates you each produce. That way if either your sire or dam does turn out to be a carrier of a lethal combination of genes - neither you or the other breeder would feel too cheated on the deal.

Also, if this were to turn out to be the case I would definitely contact the breeder you purchased the animal from and let them know about your findings. I would do this now anyways and see if maybe they have had any similar troubles with their collections (hopefully, they will be honest about it if they have).

Part of what makes reptile breeding so interesting is the gamble. We never know what will hatch or be given birth to and we can never completely predict anything from one clutch or litter to another. If it weren't for the lows, even the highest of the highs wouldn't seem so sweet.

Wow, I'm really sorry about what happened. I really felt for you while reading your post. I think the situation will really make you more stronger and better prepared for next time. I hope those remaining babies grow up to be strong boas for you.

First off, congrats on the litter and proving your female out as a het. Second, sorry to hear about the ones passing away. I've been through the exact same thing.

Was this litter premature at all? How did the bellies look on the babies (did they have big fat bellies)?

As to the fact that the albinos are passing but not the hets, the albino gene is a genetic defect. There could be other problems internally that you just can't see that are linked to the albino gene (underdeveloped organs, etc). We all know that one-eyed babies are more likely to occur when the albino gene is present, it makes sense there may be other underlying issues as well. Some of them may still pass on over the next few days or weeks...

I had an albino female give birth premature to 18 live babies (9 albinos, 9 hets) as well as 8 still born albinos (at various stages of under-development and most of the stills had bad kinks although none of the live babies did). The first day I lost 3. I thought things were going to be okay but some died weeks later, they just got weak and passed. I eventually lost all but 2 albino and 2 hets. I had many things going against me on that litter (premature, too moist paper towels, big yolk bellies) and who knows what other internal problems may have been going on that contributed to it.

It's never an easy thing to see the babies pass, sometimes there's nothing you did wrong. Please take heart and enjoy the babies you do have and the wonderful mother and father that are still doing good.
Good luck,
-April
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'There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."' -Rainshadow