Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Well, I see this from time to time but have for long been of the thought that it is a myth, here it is: Some peopel claim that Lampropeltis getula nigrita can be regarded as "pure subspec" IF they have the small white spots under the thin, if not they are not nigrita....I personaly have found no proof of this, what do you guyes think ?
One even claimed that if the animal did not have the white spots, it whas proberly a hybride whit the Indigo snake ! ( I also find that HIGHLY unlikely )
Hope som of you out there are smarter then me

P.s sorry for the bad English...

I don't think that there's any basis for those claims. Some folks believe nigrita isn't a valid subspecies anyway, but a color morph of the Desert King. They can be extremely variable in the amount of faint patterning they possess.
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Diego

SWCHR

Hi Diego,

When you say the Desert Kingsnake I suppose that you are talking about splendida right ?

Yes, and I also meant to say that the jet black MBK specimens are mostly just a product of captive line-breeding.
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Diego

SWCHR

Oh I see, but does that mean that the "real black" MBK do not occure in nature ? That its is a capative made morph of the splendida ?
( This is totally new for me )

Real black MBK's certainly do occur in nature, but it's my experience (at least here in Arizona) that they are few and far between. Most have some faint patterning on them. Captive lines have been selectively bred to lose their natural patterning, resulting in the jet black snakes we see for sale.

Again, it is believed by many to simply be a morph of splendida. I can't quite decide if I believe that or not yet.
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Diego

SWCHR

" but it's my experience (at least here in Arizona) that they are few and far between. Most have some faint patterning on them"

But that is very good for me to know, because then I know that they dont NEED to have some white marking to be nigrita and on the other hand they can also have varible amounth of white and still be nigrita..... A other identification method I have heard of is that if the snake is larger then about 120 cm, it is a sub spec hybrid, "real" nigritas do not get that large....do you have any input on that one ? ( How large do splendida become ? )
By the way, nice to get info from one how see them in nature and not as over here en Europe, as a result of many many generations of selective breeding...

In nature, they tend to have some yellow speckling or patterning as well, probably as a result of intergrades with splendida. I honestly don't know if the size difference can exclude a ssp. or not.

Here's a neat link for you:

www.reptilesofaz.com/Snakes-Subpages/h-l-getula.html
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Diego

SWCHR

Heres a Yuma king from the north side of Tucson.

Diego don't try and tell me that they changed the name and they don't call they Yuma kings anymore.

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"Wake me when its April"

Doug L

wrong pic?

Also, I think limiting a certain ssp into certain parameters such as size isn't a reliable method as far as being absolute..........what happens if a specimen is 2 cm over the limit? Does that automatically make it an intergrade?

Genetic potential certainly plays a key here, and like the reduction or absence of white speckling under the chin, size can probably be line-bred as well.

Is there any DNA analysis between the 2 ssp? Obviously the CNAH regards the 2 as different ssp and they use the DNA analysis for much of their taxonomic decisions. Note, I am certainly not claiming they are bulletproof.........not by a long shot.

Indigo X Mexican = Indian King ........j/k , however I can't see the 2 hybridizing with the consistency that's being witnessed.
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1.0.0 Lampropeltis getula holbrooki
0.1.0 Lampropeltis getula californae
0.0.1 Lampropeltis getula nigra
1.0.0 Lampropeltis mexicana thayeri
2.3.0 Eublapharis macularius macularius
0.0.2 Rhacodactylus ciliatus
0.1.0 Gerrhosaurus major major

if I didn't find this snake myself i would say eastern king also.
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"Wake me when its April"

Doug L

The snake is a dead ringer for a eastern... belly pattern, head patern, coloration, etc... Not saying you didn't catch it or anything, just from that angle nothing about that snake indicates anything other than an eastern.

I gave this snake to a buddy of mine.Ill try to borrow it back and get some pics
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"Wake me when its April"

Doug L

...I won't tell you that "yumensis" is dead. I'll let someone else break the news to you!

Got any more pics of that snake? It really does look like an Eastern from that angle...
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Diego

SWCHR

So what would that snake be considered now?...............a Cal King?
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1.0.0 Lampropeltis getula holbrooki
0.1.0 Lampropeltis getula californae
0.0.1 Lampropeltis getula nigra
1.0.0 Lampropeltis mexicana thayeri
2.3.0 Eublapharis macularius macularius
0.0.2 Rhacodactylus ciliatus
0.1.0 Gerrhosaurus major major

I believe Tucson is intergrade zone.That right Diego ?
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"Wake me when its April"

Doug L

That's what I believe. I've also heard you can find mostly black kings all the way up to south Phoenix, but I've never seen those myself.
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Diego

SWCHR

She was collected in Calif close to the AZ border.I believe that "yumanensis" is a real sub-species.But who really knows?LOL.....

L8r
Shannon

Sorry for the mis-spelling, it's such an old name! lol..

That little girl is very pretty! What do you think makes her a separate species as opposed to a locality variant like, say, a Mendota or a Carlsbad King?
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Diego

SWCHR

Could just be a locale thing and thats why I like locality animals so much.No mater what they really are they are locale.I just can see the splendida influence in them so it is a intergrade in my book and when seperated enough for a long enough time I believe that they are a true sub.But who really knows.
See, with the mendotas and davis kings etc.. you have normal looking black and whites mixed in and on either side so its just a locale specific morph for whatever reason.They have evolved to look like that for some unknown reasons like predation or something funky.
If you go east to west in the lower part of the states starting in east texas you have speckled kings that run into splendida that run into cal kings ( and a bit of nigrita) that then run into cali's.I just think that they are seperated enough and have a large enough range of there own to be a sub.
L8r

I see where you're coming from. You can still find banded Cal Kings within the Yuma populations, though, can't you?
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Diego

SWCHR

yes, but usually pretty dirty ones.
Its so hard to say with al these getula man. Nobody really knows for sure.I have seen jet black w/c nigrita from both Mexico and AZ. I found a road kill on the Ajo road many years ago that looked as good as any c/b I had ever seen.

Who is to say that the splendida isn't really just a color/pattern variation of nigrita? why does it have to be the other way?LOL.......

...good point!

Someone needs to get out there and do some serious DNA work...
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Diego

SWCHR

I dont care what science says, if snakes appear to resemble ones that had their names taken away and they came from places near where they were found when they had those old names....well I see nothing wrong with hobbyists trying to keep those names going. After all, for all we know they may change their minds and bring those old names back? Well maybe not....but I am a fan of sticking with the old names...Brooksi, Goini, Yumas and whatnot... all these names get used and abused anyway, after a few years in the hobby most keepers begin to come to their own conclusions regardless of what is supposed to be right.
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Here's my adult female.
-Phil
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Work is the curse of
the drinking class!

np

*
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Work is the curse of
the drinking class!

np

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Diego

SWCHR

Yep, don't even get me started Tom on the common names of somke of the milks.LOL.... Jalisco milks are actually kingsnakes etc....

L8r

Resembles a Baja (conjuncta) snake that I had last year. Very thin bands, colors were black & silver. The appearance was my favorite of all Cal Kings I've ever had.

Tragically, the conjuncta was lost in a large house last summer, and may have gotten outside to an acre of yard. I'm hoping that it will be spotted & recovered this summer.

That's not a Yuma King.

Tim

What's this?

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Todd Hughes

A desert king from an unknown locale in Arizona seen in the local pet store in 2006.

But I don't see what that has to do with the pic "snake bit" identified as a "Yuma king from the north side of Tucson" when it clearly isn't one.

Tim

Tim are you saying its not a yuma or its not from the north side of Tucson? This snake is a intergrade as it show more spendida then cal king but I was under the impression that any getula found around Tucson had been called yuma in the past.
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"Wake me when its April"

Doug L

Tim I think your right. Ill get the tucson snake back from the guy I gave it to several years ago and take some pics.I did own a MD Lgg for a brief time a while back so that would explain this.
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"Wake me when its April"

Doug L

thats an eastern lgg.
,,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

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