Reptile & Amphibian Forums

All kidding aside,
It seems that you have been on the forum long enough to know about the Cyclone line, frankly Im surprised you have not spoke up until now.
There has been controversy surrounding the Cyclone project since I started working with it in 2004. Ill recap a little for those who have not been watching....

The Cyclone trait or line is my line of animals that I have worked with to produce aberrant high color animals that passes genetically in the first generation to varied degrees.

I produced a litter in 2005, one of my first "morph" litters, using an Ihle Salmon male(with an aberrant pattern) bred to a really nice "normal" female. The male was produced in 2002 by Ihle by breeding a salmon to a Hardy line orangetail hypo. This first litter produced some very nice hypos with great color and very nice aberrancies. Some of the babies had the aberrant pattern from the dad.
I also bred the same male to another female that year. I got a few small aberrancies in the litter just not as nice as the first litter. The next year I produced 2 more litters with the same male, one with the one of the same females as the year before and one "new" female. Once again I produced a decent number of high color and aberrant patterned babies.....
I continued this and in 2008 I produced two litters with two siblings from the 2005 litter and a half sibling female...
F2 Cyclone and pos. Super Hypos




F1 Cyclones and Hypo Cyclones





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Robert McPhee
www.BBCExotics.com

in response to another thread....sorry, not sure why it went here.
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Robert McPhee
www.BBCExotics.com

Rob, I've seen the pictures before... killer animals, no question. The reality is that the founding animal from all of this in your words was an "Ihle Salmon male(with an aberrant pattern)". You said it right there... Salmons have a tendency to be "abberant". The hypo gene clearly alters pattern as well as color and when you're dealing with offspring in the range of 15-45 you will get variation. Take the nicest and line breed them to increase the likelihood of making more like them.

Calling it a "line" of animals is the right thing.. calling it genetic is another... it's genetic because that's what the hypo gene does. This ultimately just causes confusion for new people coming into the hobby regardless if you call it a line/morph, but these and others similar in my opinion should only be refered to as a "line".

So then Peter Kahl should have never labeled his stripe line as genetic? Bob has proven the trait to be passed on genetically, so what is wrong with his labeling?

I'm confused you're comparing two different things. The Stripe "line" while called a line is GENETIC, it should be labeled "Stripe" or "Kahl Stripe". It is passed on in recessive fashion, and like all traits has an amount of variation (the amount of striping varies).

and how is that different from Bob's line, other than Bob's line seems to pass in a dominant fashion instead of recessive?

Instead of assuming that his line is not genetic why not email him and ask him about his breeding trials. It's not cool to deface something you really know nothing about.

Apparently we're going to agree to disagree.

What do you think about the MP line? Out of 22 boas, 19 had stripes, 2 of them full stripes like mother, about a third with stripes more than half way down their bodies. Do you think that I just got lucky?

I don't know. I don't know anything about this "line". What I do know is the Hypo gene is highly variable and the more you line breed it for a certain look the more likely you are to reproduce that look.

That adult female is bad ass!

And by the way that is one great litter.
I appreciate your comments. I will answer Guy through his posts...And for anyone who has questions about anything involving the Cyclone line or anything else I have feel free to come to the source...ME
I will pass on all the information I have.
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Robert McPhee
www.BBCExotics.com

I don't see how you're missing this. I'm not trying to insult Bob's cyclones... I think they're sweet looking, but it's a line bred thing... this isn't some new genetic anomaly.

Hypos alter color and PATTERN. Sometimes you get great colored animals with no aberancy, sometimes you get aberancy with not so great color, sometimes you hit the jackpot and land both. If you take ones that have both and continue to line breed them you will increase the likliehood of producing more of them.
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Guy Scavone II
www.BoaGallery.com

"If you take ones that have both and continue to line breed them you will increase the likliehood of producing more of them."

Correct me if I am wrong but he bred his male to 3 different unrelated females, all producing a large number of striped and abberant babies.

You're right.. that should happen. Or at least have the potential to happen. Hypomelanism has been proven to be a dominant trait. If you breed it to an unrelated animal you will pass the trait along to a large portion of the babies... around 50%.
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Guy Scavone II
www.BoaGallery.com

You have Cyclones, Abby, MP line and Jeff Rishers salmons, these boas spit out a large number of striped and abberant boas. There are numerous litters of salmons produced every year and I have not seen litters in which the number of striped and abberant offspring come close to those.

You're missing what Ronne's done as well. Is it odd/coincidental that ALL of these originated with the Hypo trait?

And you're missing a point as well, at least in Cyclones, the abby trait can be expressed in NON-hypo animals. That simple fact shows the abby traits are NOT tied to the hypo gene. Yes, the hypo gene in play may also have a abby factor, but is cannot be the only gene causing the abberencies!!

>>You're missing what Ronne's done as well. Is it odd/coincidental that ALL of these originated with the Hypo trait?
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Aren't they saying this is happening in the non hypo counterparts to the cyclones?

>>Aren't they saying this is happening in the non hypo counterparts to the cyclones?

That's the point "Cyclone" is not "Hypo" and "Hypo" is not "Cyclone"!!!

"Cyclone" is thought to be a single gene that is causing more extreme aberrencies.

"Hypo" can throw mild aberrencies as well as the associated colors. But, the "Hypo" aberrencies are not to the same degree that "Cyclone" drives.

Of course for the "Hypo Cyclones" there is no way to tell how much or which abberencies are being caused by which gene.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

I don't think it is odd...
not if the original animal had multiple phenotypes.

Why is it so hard for everyone to believe that the aberrant patterns are not necessarily linked to hypomelanism.

How come the jungles were never put under so much critique,
how come jungles were just accepted as being "co-dom" when apparently the only "super" jungle that supposedly produced was the very first one...and none since, back when they were "hets"....
Why are jungles becoming less and less aberrant?
Why is it becoming more and more difficult to determine whether an animal is jungle or not?
These are the questions we should all be asking of every possible mutation, not to deface anybodys project, but to better understand what is happening and to better the animals that we produce...
Just to make sure Im not off base, I am not bashing on the jungles, they are a beautiful morph and there will be a bright future with them as soon as we get them outcrossed some more.
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Robert McPhee
www.BBCExotics.com

Jungles are becoming less "Jungley" because people are not focusing on the core Jungle traits. That, and possible or low expression Jungles are a whole lot cheaper to invest in, so more low expression Jungles are produced and the trend reflects that. Every one is hoping they can make a high expression Jungle with a low expression founder, and unfortunately it just isn't working out all that well. It may work with low expression Jungles with genetics from high expression founders, but once that trait is "watered" down, it seems to only go down in expression rather than up.
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South Central Herpetological

Just an observation:

Motleys aren't getting "watered down".
Albinos aren't getting "watered down".
Hypos aren't getting "watered down".
Anerythristics aren't getting "watered down".
T-Positives aren't getting "watered down".

I predict Roswells won't become "watered down".
I predict Scorias won't become "watered down".
I predict Aztecs won't become "watered down".

I have and produce Jungles too:

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Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site
The Boaphile Photo Gallery Link

From my point of view, no insults taken, just healthy debate.

So, if Hypo is color and abby and Bob's babies being hypo and abby should not have their own name after Bob has refined them, then it would follow the same logic to say:

Tom Burkes "Lipstick" line is also incorrectly labeled? After all it's "only" a Kahl albino that has been refined into great looking ones.
(Sorry Tom, no offense intended and IMO Lipstick is clearly a valid line)

When folks take the time and effort to work a project that takes a morph to a higher level, why should they not be allowed to label the product of all their efforts? If you don't agree with the line name or think they are no better than Billy-Bob-Joe's hypos, Then buy from Billy-Bob Joe and call them hypo's. Don't we all (many) call out some of our higher end boas by who produced them? Like my pair of VPI F2 Jungles produced by Mark Hauge or my 2005 Summit Pastel Salmon.

Blink, light came on......
One ppoint you may have missed is that Cyclone, while working very well with Hypo is NOT hypo. Bob has several examples of more extreme Cyclones that are not hypos.

The fact this latest litter was not super aberrent and not many normals (mostly hypos) does not mean Cyclone is always associated with hypo.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

and started calling it a line of animals, and putting less emphasis on the Cyclone being a "morph".
I understand what you are saying about the hypo gene throwing aberrant animals....this is a known fact, but do you think that the aberrancies could be a separate phenotype. I would say yes!
I have produced a lot of "normal" non-hypo animals with aberrant patterns--Ill be the first to admit that there is a lot of work to be done, and a lot of breedings that need to take place. But I would also like to say that I have completed all breedings thus far (that I could) that were recommended by others in the community to verify or otherwise substantiate my claims.
I am content with it being a line, similar to the "lipstick" line from Tom Burke, or the "kahl stripe" line from Peter Kahl, or the "Aby" line from Mike at basically boas. I can go on an on.
I have put in my work, and continue to put in my work to effectively isolate and perpetuate the look of the Cyclone line. For those who have been reading this and still have questions Please, Please, Please, e-mail me or call me at 517-712-4794.
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Robert McPhee
www.BBCExotics.com

I have no idea what you mean about compromising your project, but I do think aberancy is a part of the Hypo gene. While I agree it's similar to the Abby line or Lipstick line.. it is NOT like the Kahl Stripe.

who oppose me. I have seen some of the amazing animals you have produced and know that you are in this for all the right reasons. This makes it easier to understand where you are coming from. I don't run away from questions, I provide answers the best I can given the information I have at the time. I also know that it is hard for some to accept thinking outside the box, as I have often been accused of...lol. I can also agree to disagree, but what I would rather do is state my case and allow others to ask questions in a quest for information or knowledge instead of just falling back on "old" conventional thinking.....

You think that the aberrancies are from the hypo gene, I think they are linked, but are separate and can be isolated, which i am doing quite successfully, with new blood, not line breeding. I have a very diverse group of animals that are involved in the Cyclone line, and with any luck during the coming months I will have a few more answers for everyone..
Thanks Guy I really do appreciate some intelligent converation and I do respect your opinion.
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Robert McPhee
www.BBCExotics.com

Rob, I wish you the best of luck... this is the most exciting conversation I've had on here in years it seems

I think there personally needs to be more of this.. it's just tough on a forum as emotion in text form can be read differently and stifle a good debate.

I'd love to start a new thread on Lipstick Line or High Contrast Line Albinos or whatever new "line" there is to use as marketing hype.. that's an easier one to debate I think as we're only dealing with coloration. The abberancy bit is much more difficult and variable (as we've seen).

np
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Robert McPhee
www.BBCExotics.com

I also produced 2 full striped NON hypos from the MP line. Hmmmm?

I'd love if you bred the two non-hypo stripes together and pulled off the Lucy. You never know. I'd buy in then for sure btw

That would be nice.
Im sure you and many others would be in line for that....lol.
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Robert McPhee
www.BBCExotics.com

I personally think it's coming. Along with the pied. Boa Constrictors haven't been bred in captivity for long, especially in the numbers they are now, and they're not as reliable breeders as bp's... so line breeding, crossing traits, etc etc in the hopes of hitting the jackpot takes longer. We'll get there... I see the next 5 years of boa breeding being a CRAZY 5 years. What a cool ass hobby.

about. You are right! And I can't wait to see what happens.
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Robert McPhee
www.BBCExotics.com

One thing I'd like to ad Bob. It doesn't have any real bearing in the conversation. Although in my book its a large reference historically in the Boa world. That is If I understood John entirely correctly and I know I did because I saved it.
The Hardy Line Orangetail wasn't just any Orangetail it was
"The Original Orangetail Fem" .
Ivanhoe aberrant Ihle Salmon paired with original Hardy OT Hypo,produced Bobs aberrant male progenitor of Cyclone Boas.
One other thing I might ad is the Kahl stripe would be/is called "Genetic" because it has and appears to reproduce in a Recessive fashion. Similar/same as Anerythristic trait ,and Albino traits do.
. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

Thanks Larry,
That actually has a great deal of information that may not be known, atleast I did not know.
That is a great historical reference, that helps in determining lineage and piecing things together.

Thanks again!
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Robert McPhee
www.BBCExotics.com

I believe the aberrancies we are seeing in Hypos and non-Hypos may have originally come from the same “bloodline”, but likely are not linked in any way to the Hypo gene itself. The “Hyponess” of an animal makes it easier to see and identify the aberrancies for sure. But the aberrancies are clearly in many non-Hypos as well as Hypos. Unfortunately, I can’t back up what I am about to say up with pictures. The first litter of Monster Tail Hypos I produced had a few Hypos with goofy patterns and several non-Hypos that also had goofy pattern. The exact same kind of goofy pattern that I now produce with my “Nova” bloodline animals.

The Nova Boas are Grandkids of the original Monster Tail female. She was bred by an F1 Orange Tail Hypo. This Hypo’s mother was the original Wild Caught Hypo that Dr. Hardy brought back from Panama many years ago now. In 2000 The Monster Tail produced the first litter of Monster Tail Hypos. This is the 2000 Monster Tail Hypo male that fathered of my “Nova” Boa aberrant bloodline, or whatever you would call it.

He had siblings in that first litter that were actually more aberrant than he is. I don’t have or can’t find pictures of them. But they were there in that first litter. They were not Hypos. They did not have the Hypo Gene. So it cannot be said that it was linked to the Hypo gene. In fact any non-hypo ever produced by a Hypo does NOT have the Hypo gene. This is by definition. So I do not believe it to be related in any way.

These are some of the babies he made:

Hypos and non-hypos. Sorry for the old shots. I haven’t taken updated pictures of them. This one has very very little in the way of aberrancies. But he has what is required to make some crazy babies. He made the second generation of “Nova” Boas for me last year or really the third generation of aberrant animals from the original litter of Monster Tail Hypos:

Here are some of his babies:

I think that it is possible that the same “genetic combination” may be making these aberrancies happen in more than one “line” of these critters. I don’t know it is the exact same gene or genes. Nobody does. It might be virtually impossible to prove out one way or the other. It clearly is inarguable that in fact it is genetic. Genetic is not defined as only fitting into the neat little clearly understood packages that “simple recessive”, “dominant”, “co-dominant”,” and or if you prefer, “incomplete dominant” traits are. If only it were so simple...

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Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site
The Boaphile Photo Gallery Link

very good points Jeff,
interesting tracing back the lineage of your Nova boas. From what I understand my original male from Rich Ihle was the result of breeding a salmon to the "original" Dr. Hardy line orangetail female.....very interesting indeed!

I believe you made an excellent point about the non-hypo aberrant boas...
I agree that under the definition the hypo gene can't have a direct influence in the pattern of non-hypo boas...Here is my best example of this happening...This female was produced by the most aberrant hypos siblings I produced in 2005....I would consider this one an F2 or extreme variation of "Cyclone". I also put a couple of pictures of an F1 non-hypo which is less extreme, but definitely aberrant...

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Robert McPhee
www.BBCExotics.com