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Ok now a Lipstick Albino is just a line of albinos that express extreme redness and contrast. I get that.

When there is litter of lipstick albinos or sunglows, some of the babies do not express this "Lipstickness".

Since not all babies express this, then they are not Lipsticks. Therefore how can they be passed as lipstick albinos?

I see people trying to sell off their albinos or sunglows as lipstick line which clearly don't show it. Or sell off het lipsticks when the lipstick parent doesn't even have this expression.

In my breeding experience, high contrast and high red albinos or sunglows will throw offspring that express the same, but not every neonate.

So a low expression sunglow from a lipstick mother, IMO, cannot be passed as lipstick, but only the offspring that express this "Lipstick" trait?

Am i just arguing a moot point to death, or is there some validity to this?

I completely understand what you're saying and I agree that there are some rather unscrupulous... or, uneducated sellers out there. Having said that, "lipstick" is a line bred trait so it gets confusing. If a low colored albino is born in a lipstick x lipstick breeding, technically it's from the lipstick "line".
IMO, those sorts of boas should be referred to as lipstick lineage with normal color. That's not going to happen though because who is going to admit their albino has "normal" or average color when they could just lie and deceive and make more money.
I'm not pointing any fingers by the way. But we've each seen several examples of this situation.
Another good topic!
jb
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Jonathan Brady
*You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.*

This is a good point these less high contrast colored Boas are still "Lipstick Lineage or Bloodline".
They probably posses the genetic ability to reproduce some of those High contrast off spring.
I agree the best of the best is the way to go to reach the ultimate offspring.
That's why its up to a buyer to inspect a Boa for purchase with their own eyes.
To determine if that Boa has the qualities needed to achieve their goals.

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

Great post! This last year was the first year I had seen soooo many normal looking "lipstick" albinos and sunglows on the classifieds.

that non expressive offspring from lipstick parents would throw expressive lipstick babies.
I own two sunglows produced by Barry Berg. They are 04's. There were many of these high red contrasty sunglows in the litter, and also some very bland looking sunglows. I purchased one of the redest sunglows i've ever seen, and one of the bland.

Both have produced for me, and the bland looking sunglow produced bland babies, not one high contrast or red baby.

The high contrast red sunglow produced killer offspring. Some of the reddest albinos and sunglows i've ever seen.

I would argue my line of Red sunglows is a line-bred trait just like the lipsticks.

So, IMO, lipstick offspring that don't show the trait won't throw lipsticks, and shouldn't be deemed as such.
Link

hey kevin, just followed your link to see an unbelievably beautiful collection of boas! I picked up a snow from you in '07 that bred my super ghost and triple het females this year. keeping my fingers crossed.

saweet!!! two killer litters...hope they drop big litters for you!

Post those pics as soon as you get them =)

This is MUCH easier to debate than the Hypo line stuff we were talking about yesterday. It's my understanding that the original breeding that produced the infamous "Lipstick" sunglow was a DH Sunglow X Kahl Albino... a breeding that has been done 212 times now. Boas are variable... there will be nice looking ones and avergae looking ones in a litter. If you take the nicest and slap some silly name on it in an effort to sell more of them... good for you.. it's called marketing, but to try and claim it's anything more than that is silly.

Hey Guy first a quick question to you then below a short statement response to another part of your post.

>>> a breeding that has been done 212 times now. Boas are variable...

I'm confused Is this some random number or have the Burkes seriously done 212 lipstick line breeding's ?

>> there will be nice looking ones and average looking ones in a litter. If you take the nicest and slap some silly name on it in an effort to sell more of them... good for you.. it's called marketing, but to try and claim it's anything more than that is silly.

Yes although you must admit certain lines Like "Lipstick Line" and others continuously produce many extremely nice Boas . Certainly with Lipstick Line you see more and better Sunglow Boas than the other 100's and 100's of Sunglow Boa breeding's out there.
Of course there are sporadic nice Boas that pop up from unknown Lines. It seems to me certain Lines consistently produce better Boas more often. There only seems to be really a handful of true and tested consistent great Boa Lines. So through selectively breeding the nicer Boa lines, a person can continue to propagate great Boas as opposed to generic bland Boas .

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

"So through selectively breeding the nicer Boa lines, a person can continue to propagate great Boas as opposed to generic bland Boas"

You're giving away the most prized boa breeding secret!!! (one all too many fail to follow)
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

OOOOpps, LOL , I forgot not everybody understand this point.
Didn't mean to let the cat out of the bag , LOL
Some people still think you can take sub par animals
and consistently make gold.

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

Yeah, seriously... this is top secret!

Lar, I was just throwing out a random # so no, no idea how many times they've done it, but you were right on one thing. If you take a "Lipstick Line" Sunglow... which will be a beautiful sunglow because they only throw the marketing moniker on the nice ones, and you breed it out.. it should in theory create more "Lipstick Line" or nicer looking sunglows than average looking ones in the litter, but if you breed garbage together you still may be blessed by the boas gods with hitting a nice Sunglow... take that one.. breed it.. and make more

Thanks Guy ,I assumed you were referencing a general random number.
It's never good to completely assume things though.

>> but if you breed garbage together you still may be blessed by the boas gods with hitting a nice Sunglow... take that one.. breed it.. and make more

That's another way to selectively breed that can work.

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

Its ALL about selective breeding as most of you already know. Anyone can slap a "label" on it and call it what they want. Does that make it something different then all the rest? Of course not. We all know that if you consistantly breed the best to the best, you will enevitably come up with something like the "lipstick line" and so on. It is a marketing stratagy as was already mentioned here. Because no matter how you cut it, a kahl albino is a kahl albino etc etc. This topic could be thrown at MANY different bloodlines out there, but that is for another day. If you produce outstanding boas (or ugly ones or that matter), you have the right to "label" them or name them as you wish. That certainly does not make them so. But if it makes someone feel good to name what they like to THNK is their line, good for them I guess. Speaking of selective breeding... i have half a dozen gravid female pastels that i am waiting to drop! I cant wait to label them all with new names... tootie fruity pastels, orange marmalade pastels, grapefruit pastels....he he.

Link

It seems like a lot of the pale/poor lipstick boas I have seen are coming from a breeding with one lipstick line parent. A lot of people still post them as lipstick.

I agree. Albinos are just albinos and they will fade with time. Line breeding for better results is a waste of time. J/K

The color on that is exceptional.

I don't think you could get any more peach or orange on that boa, it is saturated! Amazing albino Matt!
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'There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."' -Rainshadow

Yep Matt your Red Albino Boas are indeed spectacular
" Pastel Albino Boas " of your own creation !
I said it I hope you don't mind, it is a compliment
I never tire of looking at them !

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

Ask to see the parents and get a full history. I know allot of people are using deception and/or are mislead, who are selling animals as lipsticks that have no or extremely little lipstick genetics in them. There are variations in every lipstick litter from outstanding to a more normal looking sunglows, however most "full" lipsticks are above average in looks.

To talk about Lipstick, it would be good to have the definition of it ! Tom is the one that should give his definition of a lipstick.
From what I know, that name was given in 2004 by Amanda Burke when she saw some of the sunglows that the female hypo het albinos “Ruby” produced. The were had lipstick colors, like the deep red ones have.
In the following years, I have seen many fantastic red sunglows (2005/2006) on Tom’s web site offered as “lipstick line”, not as “lipstick”
Now, every where breeders are labeling “lipstick sunglows” even thought they are orange !! Not even red and far away from the ones Tom is offering as “lipstick line” ? Obviously, they don’t have understood what a lipstick is and that the lineage to Ruby and the hypo het bloodline Tom is using give them their unique color.
I have a lipstick from the 2004 litter, he was red as a baby and is still .
So, if a sunglow is not related to Tom’s hypo blood line het albinos (ruby, ...)and not deep red with bleeding colors, it’s not a “lipstick”. That's my understanding.

Here is a male, 2 years old. He did not yellow up and is still white and red on the tail. He is now 5 and still red and white.

UN-FRIGGIN-BELIEVABLE!!!
jb
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Jonathan Brady
*You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.*

I wonder what this would be then. My camera skill are not the best, but the pics are close.
In August 08 when I received him. Alittle more red then the actual animal due to flash.

and last week. A little less red and more orange than the actual animal. Taken with no flash.

Bought it from Tom as Lipstick line sunglow possible super. It was out of a breeding of a Lipstick sunglow to one of the hypo het females (son x mom), but not sure if it was Ruby. I don't think it was. The color was not as red as I expected. The website pic showed a very red animal but, in your hands, it looks more of a burnt orange animal which Tom agreed after I received it. The animals color has lightend a bit more. The "possible super" is probably a super and would explain the fading color.If there is a difference between lipstick and lipstick line, what did I pay for? Now seeing lipstick line animals selling for less than half what I paid in August '08 made me rethink any future boa purchases. Nothing like being a boa morph newbie...

It is good to see people thinking the way you are, too many people just swallow pills other people give them without asking what they are getting. My question is did the whole "lipstick" thing start with him labeling one boa as a lipstick and then later added that label to all of his albino and sunglow producing animals? I'm sorry but when I think of a lipstick line animal I think of an a boa that looks like lipstick was melted on it and I'm sorry but that boa you have as well as many others look far from that. If it is from a "line" then wouldn't the mother have to be known as "Lipstick"? This is why I think the "lipstick" term came from labeling a boa based on how it looked and not who produced it. It would be nice to hear from Tom on how the term "lipstick" came to be.

Here is a pick of my "Orange Lipstick" Sharp Sunglow..... J/K

"I'm sorry but when I think of a lipstick line animal I think of an a boa that looks like lipstick was melted on it and I'm sorry but that boa you have as well as many others look far from that."

Bummer. Especially since I paid almost 3k less than 7 months ago. I looked at all the different albino pics online that I could find before making a decision and really liked the look of the lipsticks. I figured if I am going to work with animals other than my Aussie stuff, I may as well go after some nice stuff. I'll post a pic of the animal before I got him tomorrow (it's on my work cpu) that basically was the deciding factor. I picked him as he looked as if he would be a screamer animal as an adult, like zenzinias. I have a hypo het female from the LS line and a hypo jungle het for the LS line female too. Now I am second guessing the direction I went in.

Even without seeing pics, I can say this....

Too many people look at the bottom line and scrimp on their future breeder animals. Yeah, spending a mint does not ensure you get a steller animal. At the same time spending less does not always mean you get less. You need to pay attention

Sounds like you wanted top shelf, searched around and found something you felt fit your wants. If it truly is a top notch lipstick from Tom, and you breed it to something with similar steller looks, you WILL have awesome looking babies. Plain and simple, awesome babies will be hard to hang on, many people want the best!!!!!

I would rather pay too much for a top shelf breeder than get a great deal on an average one!!!!

And no, I don't want to buy the Brooklyn bridge!
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Dave,

I really thought I paid attention and bargain hunting was not in the game plan. I wanted to work with the lipsticks so I went to the source and close to it. I purchased a listick line sunglow male, DH sunglow female from the LS line and a hypo jungle het LS line albino. I am now rethinking the plan as it seems that the red is lost with the super form. With the females being hypo and the male being a poss super, the odds of producing supers lacking the vibrant “lipstick” red is a strong possibility. I believe I have three options…sell male get LS albino male, sell the DH female and replace her with non hypo het or just stay the course. I am going to keep the jungle female and look out for a non hypo jungle het albino male. I cant’t really sell the SG male and expect to get back what I have in him and search out a LS albino male. Same with the DH female. I paid more than I could get in return. This is a pic of the male before I got him. He looks quite a bit different now, as evident in my above post..

This whole lipstick/ lipstick line thing needs to be defined for us poor folk trying to get involved in morphs. I don’t have the coin to keep chasing things down. Is it only a lipstick if it is from the female Ruby and lipstick line because it is from Ruby’s sisters. I just want color and I like red.

refers to babies produced by three females in the Burkes collection. These are Hypo het Albino females purchased from D&M Breeders. Ruby as named by Damion of D&M is the nicest of these females and subsequently produced the first "Lipstick" Sunglows. As the name grew in popularity any animals produced from those females came to be known as the Lipstick line. As far as I know all the males used in these breedings were coral albino males that came from Pete.

Sorry to hear you're where you are.

LOL, you're hoping the male is NOT a super, then you'll produce some non-hypo babies, a male from that would "fix" your problem.

It's a point I have seen myself, for the most part you'll never be able to sell the animal you bought for what you paid for it. Especially when you get a top notch animal from one of the larger breeders. Simply stated, they can command the highest price because of the animal and their known name.

I like the look of lipsticks, to get the true definitions, I'd go to Tom!!! It is his "line" after all.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

It is about research and understanding how Boas and Sunglows colors develop.
This "LS Sunglow"of yours pictured is obviously a top Line LS Sunglow.
Although put it next to those in the litter that have more defined red saddles and tail blotches.
Every Albino and Sunglow will fade with age.
I remember looking at this particular Sunglow ,I believe it was one of the last few really nice ones left at the time I looked.
Although compared to the pick of the litter you could see clearly the differences.
This one has slightly faded saddles and tail blotches already as a baby.
Although put it next to all other Sunglows produced from other lines this year (with in a few months of age).
I'm betting 75%-85% of the other Sunglows do not look nearly as
nice as your LS Sunglow does.

Those that want to purchase a Sunglow also have to take into
consideration if they want the High contrast like the "Lipstick Line type Sunglow" or
the High over all color produced by "Pastel Sunglows"

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

The animal in this email is very nice. You made a great choice purchasing from a reputable breeder like Tom. The animal is carrying some super like qualities which may be the reason for reduction in coloring over time. The animal is definitely carrying a lot of red, pinks and oranges and I am sure if paired up with the right animal, will produce beautiful babies.

if I could ad my two cents. Of course keep in mind all of my Sunglows, Albinos and double hets are from the Lipstick Line. Through my own observations, from bringing my babies to shows and comparing them to other non lipstick line animals, time and time again even my more "normal" Lipstick line sunglows look alot better than many other sunglows. Its not something I invented to "market" these animals. Its what people have told me over and over again. For me, the proof is in the pudding. I spent a load of money on my original stock and every time I hear that my albinos look like many of the sunglows out there, I know it was worth every penny. The bottom line is.....if you want a sunglow for $400.00 dollars, go ahead and get one. They are out there. Enjoy them as I have enjoyed these Lipstick line animals. I have always believed in purchasing the best founding stock you can afford because in the end, you get what you pay for.

Mike Panichi
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honesty is my only policy

Your boas do look great but I don't believe in saying that if you want great looking boas you have to pay good money. I produced some sunglows that look as good and better than some "lipstick" sunglows and I think Frantz Herp. produced better looking albinos than any "lipstick" line this year. Don't get me wrong there are some boas that look great and cost a pretty penny that I would not mind having in my collection but if I see two identical boas, I'm not gonna pay ?? more just becuase his is labeled ?? line. Worse, I'm not gonna pay ?? more money for a boa that looks average because it is labeled ?? line. This is happening alot with the "lipstick" line.

but again, you get what you pay for. I'm not sure what you spent on the sunglow(I would have spent a few grand for an animal like that) in your post but I can tell you this, if you were selling it on the classifieds, you would have people trying to tell you that sunglows are being sold for $400.00 or $500.00 THEREFORE you should sell that amazing animal to them at that price. Which is probably the main reason this thread was started in my opinion. As a few people mentioned in this thread, you can breed two average looking sunglows(or any boa for that matter) together and come out with a real killer. Very true, but wouldn't you agree that your odds of ROUTINELY producing "generally higher quality animals" is enhanced if you start with adults from a higher quality line? That is herp fundementals in my book. I forget who said it in this thread but it was basically that only a few sunglows from the Lipstick line are worthy of the tag Lipstick Sunglow and the rest should probably be called Lipstick Line Sunglows. I would have to agree with that statement because only a handful of my babies were what I would call Lipsticks. I guess I'm guilty of carrying the Lipstick Tag on my animals I have for sale when I should be really calling them Lipstick Line Sunglows but I still say, when matched up against other sunglows and albinos, more often then not, they are way better. And that is what drives me. Take care. Mike Panichi

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honesty is my only policy

There is no doubt this Sunglow of yours is outstanding,no one can argue this point.
I actually have a few questions for you
You say frantz produced this Boa this year is it yours now ?
Were there more Sunglows in the litter this nice ?
If its your Sunglow what do you plan to pair up with it ?

Thanks
. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

You had me go back to re-read my post. I didn't say anything about me having a boa from Frantz, what I said was that I produced some sunglows that were just as nice if not even nicer than SOME of the Lipstick sunglows out there. What I said about Frants was that they produced better albinos than any Lipstick line did this year. My point was that there is many boas out there which look just as good if not better than "lipstick" sunglows and are not as over priced. Some of the pictures on this thread look great and I would pay top dollar for "those" boas but lets be realistic, many of the "Lipstick" line animals on the classifieds have been far from looking like any of the boas on this thread.

Thanks for clarifying ,I mis read your post.but you answered my questions anyway,LOL
I do agree I think some people my buy some Ls Albino etc..(not the best available)
Then pair it up with something Dh that's not necessarily top dog.
Then slap the name Ls line on it as a marketing ploy even though its not stellar.

If something carries the name (whatever name-LS Line ,Pastel Dream,Ebv RG,etc...) it still needs to carry the "Look".

I still believe a good "Line" ( meanin g both Sire & Dam were quality Boas)can produce animals that may not be completely stand out but still carry strong genetics.
So when paired with another very nice animal the genetics are once again enhanced.

. . . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

Mike there is no doubt the Sunglows you are producing from the
Lipstick Line are at the Top of the Heep !
Wow I love to look at great Sunglows !

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

thanks Lars. How are things going over there this spring(well, almost spring for us anyway)? Take care. Mike Panichi

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honesty is my only policy

Sorry I botched your name. I hope all is well Lar. Mike
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honesty is my only policy

No problem Mike ,I best not jinx myself with
some arrogant sounding statement. LOL
I'll say looks good here but I will not
count my chickens yet,LOL
. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz