Reptile & Amphibian Forums

If the frosted are considered amel, how would that come across with a miami type? I'm looking for a female for my WC classic that is a Miami type. I'd like to gray up the offspring a bit, so maybe going with a crimson female would be a better bet? I thought the frosted had a pretty neat appearance, but wasn't sure how the hybrid amel would pan out.

If you don't mind mixing alien genes into your corn project, the frosted look would probably be interesting in the Miami color theme. Be sure to advertise the babies as hybrids, and hope they don't look like pure corns. It can be very confusing to people that later inject such animals into their pure corn projects, and scratch their heads when they get gray rat snake genetic throw-backs.

Don
South Mountain Reptiles

I like Creamsicles and the hybrid vigor factor...please don't throw tomatoes. Of course, I would always advertise as such since I appreciate the fact that not everyone feels the same way. Thanks for the speedy reply.

Now if I could only figure out what to do with that pesky male sunglow....

Why would a tomatoe producer throw tomatoes? LOL.

I've had creamsicles, frosted creamsicles, creamsicle Okeetees, and other hybrids on my site since 1996. Seldom is my participation in this forum directed at the thread author, but more toward the first-time cornsnake owners that (in this case) may not be aware that the word frosted is associative with hybrids. Many people out there have purchased "frosted" corns without being told they may be hybrids. I say "may" because unfortunately, some people use that adjective to describe non hybrids that have a frosted appearance; thereby promoting confusion. Hence, I'm on your side. I like creamsicle types, but I'm very nervous about them being in the hands of snake keepers that don't understand the responsibility of producing hybrids (not you). Not unlike my crusade to get people to recycle, when I see a thread that mentions a hybrid, but lacks explanation of hybrid identity, I feel the need to remind some of our younger and/or less-experienced cornsnake keepers that producing and selling hybrids has potentially damaging consequences in our hobby, in the absence of emphasis on their hybrid origins. Suffice to say, my response was not pointed at you. Gray rat snake genes in a Miami type corn sounds interesting.

Don
South Mountain Reptiles

Not to take away from Don or Laura, but last fall I had set up a booth at a reptile show and at one point I was able to walk around and see what some of the other vendors where peddling. I came across a gentleman selling a bunch of amelanistic corn X grey rat hybrids. They were really interesting looking snakes. They looked like classic orange creamscicles but heavily frosted. The vendor was also being completely honest about what they were. I didn't do very well at that show and really couldn't afford to buy any of these and the vendor didn't want to do any trading. I've never forgotten those snakes and hopefully one of these days I'll get me a couple of them. After seeing what these amels look like I've got to agree that the grey rat genetics would be very interesting if combined with a lot of different corns, as long as the breeder is honest.

>>I like Creamsicles and the hybrid vigor factor...please don't throw tomatoes. Of course, I would always advertise as such since I appreciate the fact that not everyone feels the same way. Thanks for the speedy reply.

I think hybrid vigor could possibly apply to Creamsicles (Corns and Emory Rats were at least once considered conspecifics not very long ago, and it's quite easy to see their similarities), but I don't think that 'hybrid vigor' is what you'll always get when you create a cross between different species (perhaps like Corns and obsoleta types) -- even if they have the same chromosome count and can produce some viable offspring.

To illustrate my point, the term hybrid vigor (also called heterosis) is a Mendelian genetics term that basically means "the phenomenon of an increased vigor in heterozygotes". I took Genetics last semester, so this is good practice/study for me. LOL Mendel's various non-allelic pea crosses were called "hybrids", though the parent stock were of course, from the same species (Pisum sativum). The term hybrid vigor is a bit misleading for snake breeders, because we often think of hybrids as purely interspecific (e.g. Creamsicle) or even intergeneric (e.g. Jungle Corn) crosses. In genetics, however, hybrid usually just means a cross between two different alleles and is not referring to anything interspecific. And thus, hybrid vigor is also a genetics term.

To be clear, I'm not sharing this stuff as if the thread starter didn't already know it -- because he/she might have; I'm only sharing this because I sometimes see this term slightly misused/misunderstood in the snake breeding hobby.

If mature crosses between Grays Rats and Corns are something that's commonly seen in the wild, then I'd assume them to be genetically vigorous, but if the species line isn't very blurred, and if wild crosses aren't often seen -- especially in two sympatric species -- then I believe that most evolutionary geneticists would assume that -- even if they do naturally outcross -- that they are probably not vigorous crosses. I know that last was one heck of a run-on sentence, but I think the idea is right. : )

Dusty R.
Suboc.com

It's funny because about 10 minuts ago I was listening to talk radio talking about hybrid vigor being a reason that was justifying and stating that as a reason for so much hybridization of a different "group" of snakes, not corn snakes. Anyway the funny thing is; I was thinking about some of the same exact points that you make, then I come here and read this thread,lol, and I think you are absolutely correct. However I think that it is possible that some "vigor" could also be achived with interspecies or even integrades depending, and sometimes those things really aren't known untill tried and proven. I personally am not a fan of hybrids in general and do not, nor will I keep them as part of my personal breeding program, or even keep them in my collection, but I do respect them and the people that produce them. I can also admire and appreciate their results, because there truly are some incredible animals produced that way.
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Jeff Benfer
gartersnakemorph.com
1.0 cinnamon pastel Python regius
1.1 pastel Python regius
1.1 mojave Python regius
0.3 normal Python regius
1.3 Terrapene carolina thriunguis
2.3 Terrapene carolina carolina
4.1 Kinosternon baurii
1.1 Malaclemys terrapin terrapin
2.2 double het albino and anerythristicThamnophis sirtalis parietalis
1.0 anerythristic Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis
2.3 Iowa snow Thamnophis radix
0.2 het Christmas albino Thamnophis radix
1.1 double het cherry erythristic, albino Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 melanistic Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
2.0 66% het snow Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.2 flame Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 triple heterozygous for amelanistic,carmel, and stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 anerythristic motley Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 butter p.h. stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 carmel stripe p.h. amel Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 amelanistic p.h. carmel,stripe Pantherophis guttatus

Yes, I agree with you that hybrid vigor is possible and indeed does occur between species. But hybrid speciation is a VERY rare mode of speciation to occur in nature -- because even if an interspecific cross does occur and is more fit than its two parental species, the new hybrid cross has to become reproductively isolated before it can be considered a new taxonomic branch.

I think a lot of new hybrid breeders sometimes think that every cross they make is guaranteed a certain amount of hybrid vigor. Not always so. While inbreeding depression is well-documented (e.g. look at just about any AKC-registered dog breed and you will see a cocktail of health problems for each one), so is also outbreeding depression.

And for that matter, there are instances in nature when just the opposite, inbreeding vigor, occurs. Humans, for example, with two copies of a mutated form of the CCR5 gene called "delta 32" are known to be completely resistant to HIV infection. Humans with one or more copies of delta 32 can also survive Bubonic plague.

I think it's easier to measure conspecific hybrid vigor in captivity than it is to measure interspecific hybrid vigor. You can easily see, for example, that outcrossing a leucistic Texas Rat with bug-eyes to a normal wild-type will start producing Texas Rats with normal-sized eyes again. Definite hybrid vigor there.

But for someone to say that "my female Jungle Corn outlived my wild-caught female Corn and produced larger clutches than her" doesn't hold much scientific water for evidence of hybrid vigor, as there are a bazillion-and-a-half reasons why that could have happened.

And I agree, there are some pretty hybrid crosses out there. But as a continuum of what Don was saying, there is a DEFINITE higher responsibility placed upon breeders of interspecific hybrids to not let their stuff become undocumented -- or infinitely worse -- escape and genetically mix with millions of years of evolution in local wild populations. That would be a BAD disaster for conservation biologists to deal with.

Dusty R.
Suboc.com

"But for someone to say that "my female Jungle Corn outlived my wild-caught female Corn and produced larger clutches than her" doesn't hold much scientific water for evidence of hybrid vigor, as there are a bazillion-and-a-half reasons why that could have happened."

lol, I couldn't agree more Dusty, I think that is one of the bigger misnomers used like a crutch to justify what we all know deep down is inherently wrong in the long haul, but hey we are a society of instant gratifications, ohhh look at the pretties, they are new and different, and then the $$$

"And I agree, there are some pretty hybrid crosses out there. But as a continuum of what Don was saying, there is a DEFINITE higher responsibility placed upon breeders of interspecific hybrids to not let their stuff become undocumented -- or infinitely worse -- escape and genetically mix with millions of years of evolution in local wild populations. That would be a BAD disaster for conservation biologists to deal with."

I'm with ya', but at the risk of sounding pessimistic, if I'm being honest I would have to say your "Bad disaster" has probably already happened, or I would be surprised, and if not it is only a matter of time. The responsibility of the guy selling hybrids at the show disclosing that fact is kind of a moot point if the susequent buyers and breeders down the line don't share and apply the same code of ethics, not to mention at some point of dilution (probably less than you might think) people won't even knowingly be contributing. I'm affraid "that" damage is done and there aint' no takebacks.
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Jeff Benfer
gartersnakemorph.com
1.0 cinnamon pastel Python regius
1.1 pastel Python regius
1.1 mojave Python regius
0.3 normal Python regius
1.3 Terrapene carolina thriunguis
2.3 Terrapene carolina carolina
4.1 Kinosternon baurii
1.1 Malaclemys terrapin terrapin
2.2 double het albino and anerythristicThamnophis sirtalis parietalis
1.0 anerythristic Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis
2.3 Iowa snow Thamnophis radix
0.2 het Christmas albino Thamnophis radix
1.1 double het cherry erythristic, albino Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 melanistic Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
2.0 66% het snow Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.2 flame Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 triple heterozygous for amelanistic,carmel, and stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 anerythristic motley Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 butter p.h. stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 carmel stripe p.h. amel Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 amelanistic p.h. carmel,stripe Pantherophis guttatus

>>I'm with ya', but at the risk of sounding pessimistic, if I'm being honest I would have to say your "Bad disaster" has probably already happened, or I would be surprised, and if not it is only a matter of time. The responsibility of the guy selling hybrids at the show disclosing that fact is kind of a moot point if the susequent buyers and breeders down the line don't share and apply the same code of ethics, not to mention at some point of dilution (probably less than you might think) people won't even knowingly be contributing. I'm affraid "that" damage is done and there aint' no takebacks.

Yep, we can safely kiss that corner of the Creation goodbye if such a thing even begins...like you said, no take backs. There'd be no way to fix it once it starts.

My Boston Terrier isn't likely to go hook up with the local female Coyote's (as much as he'd like to) LOL, but an escaped "Het" Creamsicle Corn or bairdi x Corn cross probably wouldn't have as much trouble mixing with some local wild Miami Corns. And in a matter of 4 or 5 years, the eons of evolution unfettered by mankind are flushed down the commode, just because someone wanted "to see what would happen if I bred this to that...". Mixing localities in the wild is bad enough, but mixing subspecies or species...that'd be disastrous.

The biosphere is already being violated from all fronts, as we speak, and we definitely don't need herp hobbyists polluting it too -- whether by accident or not.

Yeah Jeff, I'm with you -- I think herp hobbyists, as a whole, could afford to be a bit more proactive and cautious (because we can't afford not to be). Otherwise, there likely won't be any nature to see snakes in or to take them from. I REALLY tried not to doom and gloom, darn it. LOL

Dusty R.

hehe you BT might be more likely to hook-up with a coyote than you might think if it was the right time of year, it might end up in a situation of put out or be shut up and eaten,lol.

I don't know; the flip side to conserving evolution is that we HAVE been "playing God" over the last 10-20 yrs especially the last 5, and created some amazing animals, which is really kinda cool actually, can't wait till we can genetically engineer a glow in the dark, see thru, purple snake personally
Unfortunately I think that unless we control the human population, trying to conserve wildlife habitat may be a lost cause, not necessarily in our life time, but more people=more habitat distruction, historically the two go hand in hand, so at some point for many animals their only real hope of survival may be in captivity via captive breeding programs.
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Jeff Benfer
gartersnakemorph.com
1.0 cinnamon pastel Python regius
1.1 pastel Python regius
1.1 mojave Python regius
0.3 normal Python regius
1.3 Terrapene carolina thriunguis
2.3 Terrapene carolina carolina
4.1 Kinosternon baurii
1.1 Malaclemys terrapin terrapin
2.2 double het albino and anerythristicThamnophis sirtalis parietalis
1.0 anerythristic Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis
2.3 Iowa snow Thamnophis radix
0.2 het Christmas albino Thamnophis radix
1.1 double het cherry erythristic, albino Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 melanistic Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
2.0 66% het snow Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.2 flame Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 triple heterozygous for amelanistic,carmel, and stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 anerythristic motley Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 butter p.h. stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 carmel stripe p.h. amel Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 amelanistic p.h. carmel,stripe Pantherophis guttatus

That'd be sad for any of those "Lazarus species" situations, because captive zoo conservation should be a last ditch effort only. Very few zoos are doing what they claim/hope to be doing...the breeding part is easy; it's the reintroduction part that zoos haven't had much success at. Most of the reintroductions have been dismal. And it's SOOOO much more expensive to "conserve" species/populations that way. You have to transport to and from zoos, feed them, vet check for captive-acquired diseases BEFORE you re-release, make sure that the animals are competent (i.e. have a fighting chance for survival without damaging remaining established populations and be as close to the locality phenotype as possible), get sanctions from local and national governments for both transport and reintroductions, make sure native people don't poach them, pay someone to watch over them. Headaches, headaches, headaches. Much better to spend less than half of that money and conserve them in the wild.

One thing that zoo herp conservation does have going for it...they don't anthropomorphize their animals to death the way most of the mammal and avian keepers do. In other words, they're not often naming, training, taming, or teaching tricks to their captives. If zoos are aiming at conservation of thing like Elephants and Rhinos, they could take a page out of the herpers' playbook, on that account.

By the way, as per a book I'm reading by E.O. Wilson called The Creation: An Appeal to Save Life on Earth, conservation biologists are estimating that over half of the earth's species will be gone by the end of the century, if things stay under 'business as usual' circumstances. More than a quarter will be gone during our lifetime, if the status quo remains.

Dusty
Suboc.com -- Captive-bred Desert Ratsnakes

Here's a couple of decent papers on the subject:

http://www.izea.net/education/journal 44 2008_zoos catalysts for conservation.pdf

Conway, W. G. (2003) “The role of zoos in the 21st century” International Zoo Yearbook 38: 7-13.