Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Well here are new pictures of my girl. She just shed so these are her colours at their current best. Whether she's a candy cane, creamsicle or a mix of the two. She is one very nice looking snake. But then if her colours stay the way they are now then I might just end up calling her Candy Cream.

A full body picture:

A closer look at her colours:

My what a pale head she has:

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Phil Red Hernandez-

It looks like a standard amel. Creamsicle corns are an overall faded orange and candy canes are a high-contrast red on white.

Baby creamsicle:

Third Eye

This post is in response to the one I posted last week entitled: Can anyone help me with this one?
There was much talk as to what morph my corn snake is. Either way, thank you for your input and that is a very nice creamsicle you have there.
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Phil Red Hernandez-

There's no way you're going to determine if that snake is a cross or what it was crossed with, no matter how many pictures you post. Without knowing it's lineage, such answers will never be determined and you're simply asking people to play guessing games.

A snake can have a very small percentage of Emory's Rat Snake in it, and it would be a creamsicle, even if it looks like a "pure" corn.

The snake could not be a candy cane if is was crossed with something else. And even if it were "pure," it does not have the high contrast "look" of a candy cane.

Tim

I understand what you're saying. But I also remember reading that some candy canes were the result of crossing amel corn snakes with emory rats that had clean background colour in order to get the look of the candy cane. Then other breeders selectively bred their amel corns with miami corns to achieve the same results.
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Phil Red Hernandez-

Candycanes were developed by Glen Slemmer and later refined by Kevin Enge by selectively breeding amel corns with little background color between dorsal blotches. They are "pure" corns.

If Emory is part of an amel corn, it's a creamsicle. There's no way a candy cane corn can have Emory in it's genetics. If a snake looks like a candy cane, but has Emory in its blood, it's a creamsicle.

Tim

>>Candycanes were developed by Glen Slemmer and later refined by Kevin Enge by selectively breeding amel corns with little background color between dorsal blotches. They are "pure" corns.
>>
>>If Emory is part of an amel corn, it's a creamsicle. There's no way a candy cane corn can have Emory in it's genetics. If a snake looks like a candy cane, but has Emory in its blood, it's a creamsicle.
>>
>>Tim

Actually
If you check Candy Canes in Kathy's book you will see your definition basically matches her's almost word for word...BUT.. if you read the whole paragraph you will see that Kathy states some emoryis with light backgrounds were used in early development.
Me...I don't care...by now the emoryi would be so diluted it couldn't matter anyway, but for some of the purists out there, the slightest indication of emoryi ancestry would mean they could never be pure.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

Awwww Jimmy,

Not only did you catch me using reliable reference material, but you also caught me not reading it all the way through!

I stand corrected, apparently some candycanes DID have Emory mixed in with them.

Although I still reckon those with Emory bloodlines should be referred to as "creamsicles."

Tim

>>Awwww Jimmy,
>>
>>Not only did you catch me using reliable reference material, but you also caught me not reading it all the way through!
>>
>>I stand corrected, apparently some candycanes DID have Emory mixed in with them.
>>
>>Although I still reckon those with Emory bloodlines should be referred to as "creamsicles."
>>
>>Tim
>>
>>

Yes, if there is any known emroyi they should be called creamsicles.
Although there might have been some early experiments with emoryi it definitely isn't used any longer.
It would actually ruin the project throwing emoryi in the mix. Too much yellow.
I just don't think you could have a snake with the true candy cane look with emoryi in it.

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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

If I'm not mistaken, folks...those that tried to use emoryii bloodlines to establish/enhance their candy cane lines usually called them "candy creams" or the like.

FWIW
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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

Tim I should of read the thread down a lil further before I threw my 2 cent in.... I think Epoct and Gatorland fried my brain this weekend.
Tom

Jimmy Im with you on this one, I also think the snake looks like an orange candy cane. Here is my Orange Candy Cane male. The female is alot cleaner looking with a pure with back ground.
Tom

Tim I remember reading the info he is refering to about the creams in the candy canes. I went to go check before i posted its on Kathy Loves site in her photo gallery. Breeding miami phase and creams.
Tom

not candy
cremecicle is what people will call any amel that has any % of emoryi in it....so it may or may not turn creme and still they call it creme......

...so....it's an albino "corn" (pet trade)...till proven otherwise.....

......doesn't look creme to me....yet pattern is off a little...
...not candy.......(people call candies candies when they aren't also)....

good luck...cool enough pattern......

.
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......

..J Yohe ....

.

That snake is not a candy cane...so that is something you should not even consider as an option, IMHO. As to whether it is a creamsicle only relates as to whether it has emory rat snake in its background.

Right now, all you can rightfully say is that it is an amelanistic rat snake, which is likely the product of cornsnake X some other rat snake pairing. Anything beyond that is pretty much speculative on your part.
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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

Thank you for your input there. I know and understand that my snake here is a hybrid of some sort. But then again so are some candy canes and creamsicles.
This is just the first time I have ever seen a corn snake x rat snake cross looking the way this one does. If you scroll down a bit you will find my post where several others were also having a hard time trying to figure out just what type of cross my snake is.
The end result was that my corn snake is a hybrid and not a pure corn snake. To me and a couple others she looks like a candy cane with a faded head, but then others think she may be a creamsicle. Or she may very well just be a plain amelanistic corn snake rat snake cross. Whatever she may really be, I was just posting some post shed pics of her. But I guess the morph names used and the one I semi threw together came across very improperly so I do appologize for that.
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Phil Red Hernandez-

>>Thank you for your input there. I know and understand that my snake here is a hybrid of some sort. But then again so are some candy canes and creamsicles.

no one uses emoryi in candy canes any longer...it didn't work, too much yellow so it would be almost impossible to find a candy cane on the market today with any traceble amount of emoryi.

BUT ALL CREAMSICLES are hybrids. creamsicle is the name given to corn/emoryi crosses expressing amelanism.
The name is never given to pure corns, orange or not.
It is ONLY used for crosses. Or SHOULD only be used for crosses.
The name creamsicle is an indicator of emoryi blood.

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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

I was not attacking you in any way, nor was I trying to undo what others had told you earlier.

I was trying to help you understand that the terms you are using are very specific, and should not be thrown about as though they were not.

"Candy Cane" is a term most commonly used to describe an amelanistic animal that is extremely white in its background, with either red or orange saddles (usually red, because the orange tended to fade into the white too much to be called candy canes...). This term has nothing to do with hybridization in and of itself, because, as Jimmy said earlier, too often the emoryii blood made the white backgrounds next to impossible to produce consistantly.

"Creamsicle" is a term describing an amelanistic animal that has emoryii ancestry...no more, and no less. It matters not how it looks, other than it be amelanistic. If there is emoryii blood, and it is an amel, it is technically a creamsicle.

Your animal does not have a starkly white background, so it is not a candy cane. Your animal may very well be a hybrid of some sort, but it cannot be determined (according to your own assessment) that the non-corn ancestry is of emoryii blood, therefore it cannot be labled a creamsicle either.

I was just trying to get you to see that the terms have meanings that are defined and fixed. If you use them outside of their intended parameters, that is how people get confused.

That's all.
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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

Actually I'm not missing your point and I understand what you and the others have said. I know classifing hybrids is a very touchy subject and should be done so properly. But then not knowing the background of an animal can lead to much confusion when just trying to get people's opinions as to what they may think it is. Obviously that is the case here.
The bottom line is that I have a corn snake hybrid of some sort and several of you seemed to have taken great offense to me using the names candy cane and creamsicle inproperly. So I appologize agian for that.
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Phil Red Hernandez-

No one was offended by your usage of the terms...that was the point you were missing.

I (we) were trying to explain to you why those terms were not consistant with what you were have there. No one was upset...no one was attacking you...no one was offended. We were just trying to help.

No need to apologize.
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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

>>No one was offended by your usage of the terms...that was the point you were missing.
>>
>>I (we) were trying to explain to you why those terms were not consistant with what you were have there. No one was upset...no one was attacking you...no one was offended. We were just trying to help.
>>
>>

You are right on the money Darin
That's all I was trying to do was educate on the usage of the terms.
ALL creamsicles are hybrids.
Candy cane is a specific look reached by selective breeding amelanistic corn snakes.
A certain look must be acheived to be labled candy cane.
The snake pictured does not fall into those parameters.
It has a look of a hybrid but there is realy no way to know what may or may not be in that snake.
Could be pure corn (amelanistic)
could have black rat
could have grey rat
could have emoryi
no way to know. I only based my "guess" of creamsicle on the saddle count and the ventral pattern.
Only the breeder can say for sure.

but as Darin stated
we aren't mad. upset or angry.
just trying to help

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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

And all is well!! Cool stuff!! Jeff

Well plain and simple. This girl I have here is not a pure corn. Many of you say she's a creamsicle but then I don't even know if she really is part Emory rat. None the less, to me it will be great to see what she turns out looking like as she grows.

Then not knowing exactly what she is leaves me at a stump as to what breeding project/s to put her in later down the line. Perhaps I can work on reproducing that pattern of hers.

Thanks again everyone.
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Phil Red Hernandez-

I would say that it appears to be a candy cane. I produce mine by breeding my amel female to my miami phase het amel male. Some of the offspring look like the mother and the father while others have much more white. Also some of the babys that are candy canes look totally different with some having whiter sides. This year I am breeding a female candy cane back to the father in a attempt to get candy canes that have much more clearer sides.