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I see this forum has become very herp orientated recently! So, the news has finally surfaced in England that the government ignored advice that the war in Iraq would increase the threat of terrorism. Now I have stated this a thousand times, but I do not agree with terrorism in any form. I personally don't see what makes Arafat a terrorist and yet Sharon is a 'goodie?'

Anyway, just wondering what you political maestro's think about this news item. I have said all along that the only way to combat terrorism is to understand why it is happening in the first place, and take it from there. More violence creates more hatred in my opinion.

So what do you think? Will the war on terrorism ever be won?
News item LINK

I don't think it will ever be won, no. You can't declare war on a people that beleive so strongly in what they do. It cannot be won because there is not set goal, I mean there is no one certain enemy. We have terrorist that live right here among us constantly and you cannot tell them from anyone else. They fight for what they believe in, we fight for what we believe in, every country fights for what they beleive in it is never ending. We are just wasting for the most part alot of lives and money fighting a war agaist the enemy within.
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Even if your on the right track you will get run over if you just sit there
20 leos,1.1 redtail boas,1.1 rainbow boas,1.1 cornsnakes, 1.0 tokay gecko,1.0 veiled cham, 5 dogs and a cat. Oh, can't forget Tater my parrolet.

... was like the attempt to extinguish a wildfire with gasoline.

Everyday I ask myself how it could happen that such intelligent people (so far I thought they must be intelligent) can make such a stupid decision.

Meanwhile it has become obvious that there had been economical and politcal reasons for this war. But regardless of the reasons every sensible person would have been able to predict that the "past war time" would end in a disaster.
One could send 2 million soldiers into the Iraq and would not be able to subdue the guys there.

Now you have to find a way to get the hell outta there in a way that you don't lose your reputation completely. Otherwise your economy will bleed to the brink of the demise.

The calculation was wrong: No oil for sale there... They blow up the pipelines and will carry on doing so. Bad investment, this war.

Maybe you should have listened to France and Germany.
Boa constrictor

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

I agree Herman. This things is going to go on and on, and the killing will continue. Apparently the 'eradication' of one man justifies the killing of thousands of others. Of course there were the WMD. I guess Iran will receive similar treatment?

I don't know, this all seems like such a shame.

I agree Herman. This things is going to go on and on, and the killing will continue. Apparently the 'eradication' of one man justifies the killing of thousands of others. Of course there were the WMD. I guess Iran will receive similar treatment?

I don't know, this all seems like such a shame.

I agree Herman. This things is going to go on and on, and the killing will continue. Apparently the 'eradication' of one man justifies the killing of thousands of others. Of course there were the WMD. I guess Iran will receive similar treatment?

I don't know, this all seems like such a shame.

Perhaps you should tell all of the Iraqis who will be spared the torture, rape and murder of there people under Saddam and his sons tyranical rule what they think of our reputation. If we had listened to France and Germany, we would be less alot more buildings and civilians. You would love that, wouldn't you Stoeckl? Why don't you ask your "sources" how many of the key players in the terrorism game we've captured? I'd say we're doing a pretty good job at chipping away at a major network. What is your country doing about terrorism???

I asked if you, as many leading advisers do, believe that this current 'war on terror' is only heightening the risk of further terrorism. Answer the question instead of resorting to childish digs at other people!

I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to put you on the spot by asking a question that might compromise the integrity of your credibility. I'm curious to know what "childish digs" you are referring to. In any case, it's okay that you can't answer the one question that really matters here. I, unlike you, will answer the question instead of evading it much the way you guys do so frequently. No, I don't think the war has heightened the "risk" of terrorism. It was there long before and will unfortunately stick around for God knows how long. I do however believe that we(the U.S.) have seriously depleted the ability for terrorist networks to operate as easily as they did prior to 9/11 and have made some think twice about supporting terrorism. I just love how you guys take something like terrorism, which has been in existence for such a long time, and try to blame our country for a sudden "burst" of terroristic events. The simple truth of the matter is that we were attacked and we sent a message to the world that this would not be tolerated. Lastly, I don't believe my post was abrasive. If it came off that way, I apologize. But let's not kid each other here, pal. You knew what you were doing when you composed that post and so do I. So let's drop the facade and stop acting like your hands are clean. They're not. You are clearly an instigator.

that the Iraq has as much to do with 9/11 as Austria: nothing.

And: No weapons of mass destruction there but a lot of oil.

Oil that you can't get because they blow up the pipelines and nevertheless you have to pay with the blood of your soldiers. And there is no change visible on the horizon...

You want to fight terrorism and countries that oppress their citizens? Go to Saudi Arabia.

But these guys are your friends (right now) as Saddam has been 15 years ago (like the Taliban and Noriega).

The U.S. politics is a chain of wrong decisions and bad judgements.
Boa constrictor

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

Your warped sense of logic and unfounded accusations make it almost impossible to argue. What proof do you base any of your accusations on? Who are your sources? Are you going to start that huge "conspiracy" garbage again? Puh-lease. Give us a break! Where's your evidence that Saddam had nothing to do with terrorism? The guy is(was?) a nutball and you know it. Look at what he and his sons did(rape, torture, murder etc.) to their own people. They themselves were terrorists! They themselves were weapons of mass destruction! When are you people going to wake up!!! What we did was long overdue...PERIOD!

If you have followed the intelligent Mr.Bush over the last year you will have noticed that Saddam was never classed as a terrorist. Research the subject a bit deeper and you will see that terrorism is not a thing that would ever probably commited by Iraqi's. Terrorists are all over the place. Of course I shouldn't mention say the IRA or Basque's here, because they of course are not part of the 'axis of evil!' Yeah right!

As for not increasing hatred towards the US / West? Are you blind?

If you have followed the intelligent Mr.Bush over the last year you will have noticed that Saddam was never classed as a terrorist. Research the subject a bit deeper and you will see that terrorism is not a thing that would ever probably commited by Iraqi's. Terrorists are all over the place. Of course I shouldn't mention say the IRA or Basque's here, because they of course are not part of the 'axis of evil!' Yeah right!

As for not increasing hatred towards the US / West? Are you blind?

Please do keep these ludicrous posts comin', buddy. You're starting to make me look smart, and that's not an easy task, lol. Man, I'd love to know who's feeding you your information. I'd like to thank that person. Oh, and when the terrorists you speak of(Basque, IRA) attack US, they'll get the same treatment. Of course I wish we could help you there, but you're against us interfering and jeopardizing our troops for such frivolous causes. Sorry.

Please inform me of the terrorist acts commited by the Iraqi's, especially the ones towards the US!

Please inform me of your personal knowledge that Iraq is and never has been involved in any way with terrorism or the support of. Saddam hates us as much as Osama BinRunnin' and I'm sure he's got his grubby paws in the icing.

the jurisdiction in a democracy.

In a democratic system one has to be regarded as innocent as long as the contrary is proved.

You could have also asked to show evidence that Austria is not involved in acts of terrorism on the U.S.
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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

My point exactly! Prove your "theories" that we are guilty of all of the things you accuse us of.

So I guess your answer there is that you don't have any evidence. Bush, Blair, and nobody else has linked Saddam to terrorism. Period. Listen. Learn.

We're not talking about me here, Germany, Herman, Nazi's or anything. We're talking evidence. The fact is, even Bush has admitted that Saddam is NOT linked with 9/11. So why is this proving so difficult to get through your skull?

Who says Bush admitted that? Your newspapers, lol. I'm not the one making accusations trying to defame the president here. YOU are! You have failed to provide ANY evidence regarding your accusations. Who are your sources? Where and when did you hear Bush "admit" anything? Do you get all of your information (for lack of a better word) from newspapers? I'll send you the Enquirer magazine with the picture of the Mermaid. Of course you'll blame Bush for conspiring to falsely advertise the Mermaid in some diabolical scheme, lol. Get a grip. And by the way, threads tend to branch off into other subjects. It's normal. So don't get your panties all up in a bunch if the topic doesn't suit you in every post. It's not always gonna' be about you. Sorry.

are very grateful for this. That's why they are cheering to your soldiers.
Boa constrictor

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

If you were a civilian Iraqi, you'd be cheering us every day, thanking us for saving you and your loved ones from such an evil regime. If you heard just one of the horror stories regarding what those poor souls suffered at the hands of those parasites, you would understand what joy they really felt at Saddam's demise.

God you have been misled! Do you honestly believe that SO many people were against Saddam, and yet did nothing? You're in a dream world lad!

No, YOU are in fantasyland, pal. What could those civilians do? Throw rocks at Saddam? Cut me a break! Saddam and his sons would torture and execute you for looking at them funny. Talk about misled! Don't your newspapers write about the terrible things that happened under Saddam's rule. Oops, sorry. I forgot. You guys only write about Anti-American stuff. Get a grip.

Who were those happy looking people who were helping to dismantle the statue of Saddam when he was chased out? They looked awefully joyful breaking that statue up and stepping on the head. I wonder who that could have been since no one over there was happy about Saddam's demise. Hmmmm...yes, I wonder(scratching my head).

of the people in the middle east.
Believe me: They would prefer the most cruel dictatorship instead of having your troops in their own country.

This is the reason why you make such a poor foreign policy: You are not able to understand the mentality of people from a different culture area.

The fact that foreign people have a different point of view for certain things is apparently utterly incomprehensible for you.

And, you are right: Saddam and his sons and relatives were cruel dictators. But there are at least a dozen countries all over the world with similar conditions. So this is no justification for a war unless you are up to attack them all.
Boa constrictor

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

That is the most misguided post I think I have ever read, lmao. To say that the Iraqis would prefer the most cruel dictatorship as opposed to having our troops there shows your total lack of comprehension! You can't possibly believe that. You must really hate the U.S. judging from that outlandish statement! And the only mentality that we can't understand is YOURS! By the way, why is it that when you guys ask questions, we answer you? Yet when we ask you something, you clam up. Why don't you answer my question to you in a previous post regarding our "meddling" in Germany's affairs when Hitler was in power? Huh-whu? You're welcome, by the way.

You honestly believe that the MAJORITY of people hated Saddam? Like I said, if it was THAT bad people would have overthrown his governement. Now his treatment of the Kurds, that was the problem.

It is just funny how some forms of cruelty are OK, or forgotten. You know about the US deal with the Japanese after WWII for example? The concentration camps. The development of chemical and biological weapons. The secrets. The science. Etc etc. All pushed under the carpet so that the US could develop the weapons that would later go on to be the cause of so much debate?

You tell me why when weapons grade Uranium was found in Iran last year nothing was done? Who, afterall, should be able to tell Iran that it shouldn't have nuclear weapons?

Axis of evil? I'll tell you where you can find it!

I think it's sad that you feel that delving into the past somehow adds credibility to your unfounded theories. This is a completely different entity and you know it. Surely we can both find fault in each others' country's past histories, but let's stick to the subject, shall we? I'm interested in hearing how you would have led the Iraqi civilians to revolt against such an evil regime. You seem to have all the answers. Please, by all means, enlighten us. Exactly what advice would you have given those people to overthrow that regime?

... that you simply don't understand the mentality of the people there.

You think my post is outlandish? It's the bare truth that they don't want you. Of course not 100% of the people there but the majority is against you.

Just look at what is happening there: One of their Mullahs was killed in an attack several weeks ago (along with a lot of other Iraqis). The culprits were Iraqis which are still supporting Saddam.

And who do the Iraqis blame for the attack? The U.S. because they let it happen!
Isn't this ridiculous? Yes, it is. But it shows the bare truth: They hate you more than Saddam whose supporters killed their major Mullah!

So if you think they want rather American troops than Saddam you are deaf and blind.

But this issue has one advantage: Time will tell if you are right or if I am right.

I predict that things there will turn even worse for you. Either you need to leave the country in shame in several years when the monetary costs and the costs on casualities exceed the level that will be tolerated by the U.S. citizens or you invite other countries to send troops for relief.

But many of the countries will say: You have started this mess so please clear it away by your own. Other countries like India will expect money for it's troops (and are not accepted by the proud people who populate the Middle East).

Arrrghh... what a mess....

In Germany we would say: You have opened a barrel....
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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

LOL, if you say so Stoeckle, it must be true. Who could possibly argue with all that PROOF you keep supplying us with to back up your accusations, lol?

We put an end to Saddam to satisfy our own security concerns. Our aim was not to free Iraqi citizens, but that happens to be a nice consequence. Bush started with removing Bin Laden, a wealthy terrorist. Next, he removed Saddam, another wealthy terrorist. By the time Bush is through, you may have your wish numb nuts, and twelve countries may have been stripped of their terrorist element. We'll see Stroeckl. But you keep howling at the moon thinking that your terdball logic will somehow be construed as wisdom. Keep rooting against us because it only serves to strengthen our resolve. We know that if you are upset, then we must be on the right track. Thanks jackass!

Snake Feller

What do you have to say about those in Iraq who weren't against Saddam? I'd say that they must have been perfectly OK with the way Saddam killed his innocent people, wouldn't you? Saddam certainly wasn't the only ruthless killer in Iraq, but only a bonehead like you would act like it matters that these particular thugs are not cheering our soldiers now.

Be careful how you answer this question gutless wonder. You might show your true colors.

Snake Feller

` It is frustrating to be a citizen of a country when the government gets out of control. Special interests, fueled by greed and lust for power, mixed with a large dose of crazy ideas, and a leader who appeals to the lowest common denominator can drive a nation to ruin.
` I imagine that I feel much like many Germans did, seventy years ago.
` By the way Hermann, how's the view from the cheap seats?
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... and not live to see my country in the stalls suddenly.

By the way: Great boa photo! I love it!
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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

"It is frustrating to be a citizen of a country when the government gets out of control."

"Out of control" was when the terrorists didn't have to think twice about killing Americans. "Out of control" was the feeling of vulnerability on 9/11 watching the towers crumble. "Out of control" is the moron who criticizes his own government without making the effort to offer an alternative solution to the difficult decisions made by his/her Predident. You sound like you'd make a great comrade for Stroeckl, why don't you move to Germany where you can be less frustrated?

"Special interests, fueled by greed and lust for power, mixed with a large dose of crazy ideas, and a leader who appeals to the lowest common denominator can drive a nation to ruin."

Maybe if you open your eyes you'll see that it is the terrorists who are trying to drive this nation to ruin. Maybe you'd understand that violence is the only solution to minimizing their efforts to kill guys like you and me. You take a lot for granted while you commiserate with your sorry comrade from Germany.

"I imagine that I feel much like many Germans did, seventy years ago."

Your imagination clearly needs work. Only a jackass would equate the Bush administration with Nazi Germany. Get a grip!

Snake Feller

` Can you figure out why I said seventy years ago. It is when the Nazis were getting organized. It took them some time to get to the point at which they were able to exercise their insanity. You should try to understand a post, before you respond. At least, try to understand basic arithmetic. 2003-70=1933. Had I said sixty years ago, you might make some sense. Now that you've had your math lesson, time to tackle history. Try books, that's where they conceal knowledge from the likes of you.
` Responses with the level of knowledge, literacy and articulation of yours, should be posted on a men's room wall in a bus station.
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Nice try coward! Come out in the open and admit your hatred for America, or would you rather evade the issue and honk your horn about arithmetic and history? Again, only a fecal-brained moron like yourself would equate the Bush administration with Nazi Germany! Now grow some balls and admit your hatred for America.

Snake Feller

Don't you worry about us old cripple-brain. The day we listen to France and Germany is the day we flush freedom down the toilet. Only a nazi would think we are in Iraq for "investment" purposes. Of course that would be YOU jackass!

Snake Feller

*sigh*

My husband had cancer a few years ago and had to undergo chemo and radiation treatments. The treatments were WAY worse than the cancer ever felt. It was a long, painful, extremely difficult ordeal. However, if he hadn't gone through it, then he would have surely lost his life to cancer. Today, he is healthy and cancer-free.

The current "War on Terror" is not any sort of instant fix or cure. No one claimed it would be. It is a long, painful, extremely difficult ordeal...and at times it may seem to make the problem much worse than the original perception of pain or discomfort. But that doesn't mean it isn't the right thing to do.

How do you reason with cancer? All it wants to do is take over your body and destroy everything it touches. How do you reason with terroists? ALL they want to do is conform the world to their image and destory everything in it that doesn't. What if you DID "understand" why they do what they do? Then what would you do? Would you convert your entire government, society and culture to a radical fundamental version of some religion...just to keep them from picking on you? Or would you just ignore every evil thing they do because you don't "understand" why they're doing it??? How would that possibly solve anything?

What is the difference between Sharon and Arafat? Well, Arafat and his people are intentionally targeting and killing innocent people (children, elderly, who can't possibly defend themselves) for no other reason than because they are Jewish. Sharon tries his best to target the people who are targeting his people...in DEFENSE of his people. Does he make mistakes? No doubt about it. Who doesn't? Is it tragic? Absolutely. But how you can think the two actions are the same is beyond me.

And anyone who believes the wars and battles fought so far have been done so simply for political or econimical gain make me laugh. This war is costing our country billions and billions of dollars with no real end in sight at the moment. I don't see any econimical gain. There was never any thought that Iraq's oil fields would somehow bring profit to our country. It's THEIR oil for goodness sake. We are trying to profit THEIR country by opening it up again so they can SELL THEIR oil to the rest of the world, including us. I can understand the thought that it's strictly a political move and nothing else. War does tend to make a president seem popular, at least for a short time. However, if you really wanted to honestly know the man behind the orders, you would see that the LAST thing he wants to do is send our finest young men and women away from their homes for months (years???) at a time and see them killed. Can't you imagine how extremely painful that would be...to know every single time you hear a report about another soldier being killed...that you were the one who sent him/her there? Do you really think being president is THAT important to somebody? To some sick power-hungry people...maybe so. But to George W. Bush? No. He's a good man who is doing what he truly believes is right. And anyone willing to be truly honest in how they view others will see that in him.

Are there guarantees that this "War on Terrorism" will be "won?" No. No one has ever had to face such worldwide threats as these before. The path to "curing this cancer" is fraught with treachery and uncertainty. Do I personally believe terrorism as we understand it will ever be completely eradicated? No, I don't. There will always be some individuals with the will and the means to do evil things to many people at once. And both Saddam and Bin Laden have shown how extremely difficult it is to eradicate a single individual who has the will and means to hide from the world. But SOMEthing must be done. If we can make all the countries in the world hostile to terrorists, it'll be a LOT harder for them to hide and plan and carry out their evil. That sounds like an insurmountable goal...but just because something seems impossible doesn't mean it shouldn't be attempted with all concievable effort.

Those of us in our high-tech western societies are far too soft and impatient now. We think if something isn't fixed or accomplished instantly, then it's not worth the effort. If the price is high in discomfort and sacrifice...it's not worth it. It's a damn good thing our ancestors didn't feel the way we do today, or we'd still be living in the stone age...or under the thumb of some evil dictator because fighting him was too much trouble.

Judy

Nicely put!

Very well put. Makes me proud.
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Rob Jenkins
Have you seen the GeckoCam?
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I have to disagree with you, and shame on you for using such an analogy. I have lost three people in in similar circumstances in the last ten years (my mum, auntie and uncle), and really think this example to be pontless and in bad taste.

My point was, do you think the recent 'efforts' will do anything to DECREASE terrorism? Now I appreciate it is not a perfect world and I haven't got the time to write pages and pages as to why I don't think it'll work. Day after day people are dying. It's easy to comment for you, sat in your armchair. If your husband had died however, would you feel so generous regarding giving the lives of others to fight a 'cause?' I doubt it.

Re: Arafat. Now hold on a second. Let me give you an analogy this time. Would you consider the last remnants various red indian races terrorists? They had been pushed out of their land, squeezed into a corner. Of course they tried to fight. Who wouldn't in a similar situation. Now the only thing the Palestinians are currently fighting for is their land. Do you honestly think that if the Israeli's withdrew from Palestinian territories that they would continue to fight? Roadmap to peace my arse. The only thing that needs to be done is the formation of a separate Palestinian state (which is still a compromise let it be said), and the end to Israeli occupancy. When Saddam invaded Kuwait his occupation was seen to be in contrary to international law. And this is EXACTLY what we have here. It wouldn't matter whether the occupiers were Jews, Blacks or damn Martians, the fact remains they are in Palestinian territory. And yes they will fight. If they had the technology and resources of the Israeli's I'm sure they'd be pin-pointing their targets a hell of a lot better than they are now!

Peace? Whatever!

How dare you assume that my own life hasn't been just as scarred by that terrible disease? And also irrevocably changed because of those very terrorist acts that you so blithely dismiss as "misunderstandings." You think you're the only person in this world with hurts? It was a perfect analogy. A painful one, perhaps, but it is a very painful subject...and you who are so incredibly sensitive as to be hurt by a simple analogy should realize that more than anyone. But then you...sitting there so comfortably in your arm chair, don't seem to understand the real pain of terrorism any more than I must understand the pain of cancer. True???

I thought I answered your question in my previous post, but since you didn't see through the veil of offense, I'll try again. Are today's actions decreasing or increasing the pace of terrorism??? I truly believe it is decreasing. However, it is much more in the spotlight in the last two years than it has ever been, and it can easily SEEM like it is more prevelant than ever. There's a long way to go, no doubt. But we're moving in the only direction possible and I defy you or anyone else to point out any other feasible path to follow to eradicate this cancer on the world.

Native Americans...terrorists??? Hardly. Yes, they defended the land they lived on. Yes, white men "stole" that land from them. It's not something I'm proud of, the way people of many races were treated by our ancestors. But that is NOT a valid analogy to begin with, and here is why:

The Jewish people have had claim to that land for THOUSANDS of years. The Jewish people have been driven off their own land time and time again. But they have managed to hang on to it through thick and thin, no matter what. Some 50 or 60 years ago, the world community decided to give them true status as a legal nation again. The land belongs to them! It always has! The land has never belonged to the Palestinians in any legal sense...so what right do they have to kill for it???

Does the Jewish government treat the Palestinian people fairly in all ways? No, they don't. But there are better ways to go about asserting your rights than killing innocent children in the streets whose only crime was being born Jewish in Isreal. How can you possibly condone such horrid, evil acts of violence and then turn around and say the American war on Terrorism is wrong?

Roadmap to peace your arse indeed. That's laughable. These people have been warring with each other for thousands upon thousands of years. It's not going to be fixed anytime soon, unfortunately. But again, if we never even try, then it can only get worse. If we keep trying to attain that goal of peace, then perhaps we can at least keep it in check.

I do agree that a true Palestinian nation would be a step in the right direction...but if you think that would actually solve the problems, you're sorely deluded and ignorant of the real situation over there.
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1.0 red cape gopher (Caesar)

You go girl!!! You truly ROCK! Unfortunately, as I've stated before, there is absolutely no way that these guys will ever understand anything reasonable. They want so badly for America to be a failure that there is no way in Hades they will ever see anything beneficial in anything we do...ever! Forget the fact that terrorists are now living comfortably and luxuriously...IN CAVES! Forget the fact that countless Iraqi civilians will be able to live without the constant threat of torture, rape, senseless murder etc. Forget the fact that if we hadn't intervened and tried so diligently to keep some shred of peace in the Middle East, it would probably be one big crater by now. Robin Williams was right. Next time one of the bigshot posters on this forum has their country threatened or attacked, we should stay out their business. After all, they don't need us conspirators "meddling" in their affairs.

P.S. How many cards are left to shuffle?

what a wonderful, from the heart post. I think you have every right to choose your own analogy.....it doesn't matter what others think. I have argued in this forum before with Herpconsultants and Hermann......they are like horses with blinders on.....and it is fruitless to try to make them understand where you or I am coming from. I can honestly say I understand where they are coming from and why, and I don't hate them for their views.....but they will not and can not understand us.....and the most disturbing thing is they don't even care to try to understand why we feel the way we do. They think that they are correct and anyone that believes the contrary to them is an absolute fool and idiot. Whether they will admit it or not, they are truly anti-American and they come here to our forum, in our country and post such rubbish and expect us to not stick up for ourselves. They have forums in their own countries....why don't they post there......we do not go to their forums and thrust our views upon them.....but I guess that is the difference between Americans and Europeans....we believe everyone has the right to their own beliefs and opinions.

You hit the nail right on the head!

I question whether you even have the knowledge regarding this issue to write "pages and pages" as to why it wouldn't work. Judging from your posts, I'd say your shooting from the hip for the most part and parrotting what you here from people with little substantial knowledge without doing any REAL homework. It almost sounds like you and Stockl get your info from the same newspaper, lol. But seeing as how you do have the time and energy to post on this issue, I'd love to read even one "page" of your wisdom. How about enlightening us?

Putz!

Snake Feller

I am glad that your husband is OK again. But why is he OK? Because he has been treated with a chemotherapy. He, not his neighbour.

So if you want to fight the terrorism you would need to go to Saudi Arabia, not the Iraq.

All reports of intelligence proved meanwhile that Iraq had nothing to deal with 9/11 and that Iraq has not been involved in terrorism. Even the CIA admits that.

But look to Saudi Arabia. Beneath the surface large amounts of money are going to terrorists there. Think about it!
Boa constrictor

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

What reports would you be referring to?

but before you start to blame me that I don't take exact notes of everything I read please refer to the report that states that Iraq was involved in 9/11.

This should not be a problem because with such a report the war on Iraq must have been justified.
Boa constrictor

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

You should be a stand-up comedian. I think that's your true calling. Just out of curiosity, since you seem to think the U.S. should mind it's own business and stay out of other countries affairs, what is your opinion of our involvment in your countries affairs? Would you be happy if Hitler stayed in power? What did we gain from that mess. Do you regret that Americans lost their lives then for YOUR sake? Just a little food for thought. By the way Stokie, as much as I hate to admit it, I emphatically agree with many of your views when it comes to boas. It amazes me that you can be so knowledgable in one area and so "in the dark" in another.

Look, I aksed one simple Q, do you people think that the risk of terror is increased or decreased. I did not refer to the rights or wrongs of the war and everything else!

BUT...someone, Gail, Judy, Scot etc etc, please refer Hermann and I to one piece of media that links Iraq to 9/11 or threats of terrprism. Any media I am talking about here. You seem to think we have the inability to read WORLD news. You also forget that the majority of news is generated from international agencies and that what is printed in the UK press is, if anything, biased TOWARDS the US.

So come on, one link to an online article...Iraq and 9/11.......Iraq and terrorism threats..........

That is my point, not the rights and wrongs of this war. Because, my belief is that the terrorists are not in Iraq, but elsewhere. And that this war will have worsened their feelings towards the west. That is my feeling. If you think they'll be out there thinking "oh, look at what they've done, they're so wonderful" then that's fantastic!

what I don't understand why you think that you can scare people that are fearless even as for their lives?

They blow up themselves in order to kill their enemies.

And you really think you can scare such terrorists when you go into a war? You are only putting gasoline in their hatred!

Or do you think they are quivering now because you attacked the Iraq?
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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

If they're so fearless, why are they hiding in caves, smart guy?

.. because they are smart. They make look you like fools chasing Saddam and Osama via satellites and high-tech and being not able to find them.

And at an unexpected time on an unexpected place they will slap you again with a few undaunted guys.

And you will went into the trap again and send several hundred thousand soldiers somewhere in the desert in blind actionism.
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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

I'm glad you're on Herpco's side! Every time I read one of your incredible posts, I thank the lord your not on my side, LOL!

Smart you say? You sound like you actually admire those parasites. I think you're confusing the word "smart" with the word "cowardice". Every post you submit here is just additional evidence that you hate the U.S., thus making your opinion a biassed one. Keep those posts comin'. You so craaazy!

I don't hate the U.S. just some things they are doing.

Speaking of cowardliness:

Congratulations on your valiant troops who attack high tech nations like Afghanistan and Iraq with mules and Kalaschnikows.

Or was it vice versa? I don't recall exactly...

They just try to compensate the superiority of your weapons like the people in Vietnam did so successfully.

I often wonder as to the difference of the mentality of most of the people in the U.S. and Europe.

Different opinion = insult
To persist on a different opinion = hatred on the U.S.

That's the way you regard things. Narrow minded as your conclusions on this and your reactions.

The other countries should start to pray that the subsequent worsening of your leaders does not carry on, otherwise we will be bombed in a decade for not joining a war or whatsover...
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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

Now you are calling our troops cowards? You've got some nerve! And don't try to back-peddle now after all the posts you've submitted here that clearly show your hatred for our country. I'd love to here what you would say to just one of our troop's faces. Would you then call any of them cowards? I don't think so. Lastly, your opinions do equal insults. I think it's amusing that you of all people have the audacity to call anyone else here "narrow-minded"! Your posts are representative of what is referred to as Euro-trash. All you do is parrot the diarrhea that is smeared all over your Anti-American newspapers and you defame a country you know squat about. Perhaps you should take a moment to refrain from wiping your boogers off on your "armchair", get off your rocker and do some "real" investigating.

Show me the line where I called your troops cowards. Look up: I wrote "valiant". Maybe my dictionary is wrong and gave me the wrong word for attacking peasants with cruise missiles and other high-tech weapons.

And when they hide in caves instead of fighting against tanks with catapults and kalaschnikovs they are cowards...

They are no cowards, they just aren't that stupid you apparently thought before you went to Iraq.

Maybe you should have asked Israel before as to their experiences with the guys in Palestine. They could have given you the one or the other advice. But they didn't because they were glad that you went to Iraq. Because it served their purposes. If Iraq would have posed any danger to another country it would have been Israel because it adjourns.

So maybe you are the mercenaries of Israel?
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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

I went back to re-read that post and I'll be damned if you didn't say "valiant" in a condescending nature. After all, you started that phrase with, and I quote, "Speaking of cowardliness", then refer to our troops! Who are you trying to kid? It's too late to try to back-peddle your way out of taking responsibility for that statement. Stick to your guns, hypocrite. You're Anti-American...be proud and admit it. Stop cloaking your hatred for my country behind your psychological play on words. You're making a fool of yourself by not admitting what everyone already knows. I would have more respect for you if you told the truth whether you were for or against us. I really don't believe you are a stupid or naive man. Your diligence in "reaching" for even a shred of credibility to what you believe to be the truth with your ridiculous accusations is making you appear that way...khhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...Luke...I am your father Luke...come to the dark side...khhhhhhhhhhh....

You have the same attitude: Either you are with us or against us.

There is only black and white. Nothing between. Is this your sight of things?

Believe me, the world isn't just black and white. Neither is your country.
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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

Explain to me how my attitude is different then yours. How bout I just do that for ya'? You defend your stance, I defend mine. The difference is, you accuse us of current events with no foundation to your claims. Your posts are full of rude, condescending, Euro-trash accusations. If defending my country aginst that is your idea of anything that is wrong, then I'M GUILTY!!! If you want to accuse me of thinking like Bush...thank you.

And we've answered your simple question. I believe that we have made it much more difficult for terrorist networks to operate. As far as their hatred toward us is concerned, I think it is and has always been at the highest level already. Besides, we don't put stock in what parasitic scum like that think of us. They'll always hate those who do not conform to their way of thinking. Who cares? Lastly, newspaper clippings mean squat! You guys have proven that time and time again. You can't believe everything you read, especially outside of this country! Why don't you PROVE that Iraq has nothing to do with terrorism. And showing me a stupid newspaper article is not proof. Do some real homework.

...is the club we are bashed with when other arguments fail. Fortunately we have got used to it meanwhile.

I am always amazed as to the way many people in the U.S. see themselves as the navel of the world. When you look up in a book about the history of WWII you will find that Hitler declared war on the U.S.
HE declared war on the U.S., not vice versa. So you had had every right to fend and attack. You did it for your own interests because you had been challenged and attacked.
So don't sell it as an act of generousity and "world-police" issue that you fought against the Nazis and finally won the war. It was because war had been declared on you.

Of course I am grateful for this because I live in a democracy now instead of a dictatorship.
But you are comparing apples and pears when you compare WWII with the war on Iraq.

Thank you anyway for supporting my stance as to true locality specific boas. I think we can separate politics and hobby.
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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

I find it amusing that you guys constantly bring up my countries past, but don't like it when we do it. Funny, I don't remember a war with Germany that took place here. Didn't we go over there? Oh well, guess I'll have to re-think that one. Thanks for "enlightening us once again!

You never had the war in your own country. That's why you don't understand the cruelty and and misery that you bring upon the civilians in the countries that you attack.

You are weeping because 2 buildings had been destroyed and there had been 3000 innocent casualities.

Let me tell you that entirely Europe looked like ground zero back in 1945 and there had been much more innocent casualities as on 9/11.

My country loaded the burden of a heavy guilt on its shoulders, of course.

Many people here in Europe still recall this time and therefore know the cruelty of war very well. Thus they try to avoid it.

You sit there in your armchairs watching TV and seeing your marines and airforce fighting in Iraq. And you have no idea how much misery you brought upon the people there.

1000 times more misery than 9/11 (just look at the number of casualities). But since you are not accustomed to war in your own country you reacted in a hypersensitive way.

With 9/11 you have got a little taste of the medicine you applied to other countries (e. g. Vietnam).

The war on Germany started by German submarines attacking your convois. This was one of the reasons that you went to Europe.
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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

Stop your blubbering Hermy! Now you blame us for the problems Hitler caused? You are hilarious!!! Keep those awesome posts coming. I see you're quoting your buddy Herpsco.(armchair, lol). It's great you have someone to look up to and relate to, lol. In any case, maybe when you are attacked, you'll just take the passive approach and let people walk all over you. We don't do that.

My history books say that we entered the war against Germany when your country attacked a passenger ship chock full of Englishmen and Americans..killing mucho innocents.

... but the formal declaration of war was made by Germany.
To ScottishCLK: What post did you read when you come to the conclusion that I blame the U.S. in any way for that what happened 60 years ago.

It was the fault of Hitler and the fault of Germany. There is nothing to discuss and nobody else to blame. Period.
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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

We've never had a war in this country? I think you mean a war with airborn weapons. The civil war devastated tens of thousands of families, homes, towns and to this day their is some hostility between the North and the South. It was a horrific war.
People on this site have been answering your political viewpoints with defensive feedback. I'm actually wondering...what IS your opinion of Saddam? Do you agree that he killed and tortured his own people, among these, his sons-in-law.
By the way we spell it convoys not convois. Ever hear of the Lusitania?

It does not suit their agenda(to bash Bush and Americans in general) to say anything bad about Saddam and his boys. The better Saddam looks, the worse Bush looks. Stoeckl himself believes, or at least wishes, that the Iraqi civilians would rather be tortured, raped, and executed by Hussein and his boys than to have freedom while our troops lay their lives on the line for them. Herman has made this clear, thus revealing his true agenda. An agenda shared by Herpsco as well. America will always be evil and underhanded in their eyes. Enough said?

that the U.S. troops went to Iraq in order to free the people? Did you honestly believe the war on terrorism was the reason?
Oh man, you are really gullible.

They went there to rule the Middle East and get control of the oil.

As to Saddam:

You are right, he and his sons were cruel dictators who tortured their own people. They got what they deserved but not the civilians that died.
Saddam is still alive and I would not exclude that he returns to power in several years when the U.S. leaves Iraq like they left Vietnam. Would you exclude it? You gave Saigon to the commies, didn't you? Same may happen in Iraq.

Similar conditons like in Iraq are at least in a dozen other countries all over the world. Idi Amin even ate the hearts of his enemies back in the 70s. I saw no U.S. troops in Uganda then to stop him (maybe there is not enough oil in Uganda).

OK, when you want to clean the world from cruel dictators start with China (they kill their students with tanks) or North Korea (who are the #1 providers of dangerous weapons for dangerous countries and maybe terrorists).

But the forces of these countries are not on the brink of demise due to long-term embargos and former wars. Could be too dangerous to attack them.
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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

I'm glad you stated that we went there to "rule" the Middle East, LOL, and gain control of their oil. That pretty much puts into perspective what I've been trying to convey all along. That is your warped and uninformed thinking proves you have only one agenda. Bash the U.S. Thank you for that ridiculous statement. I rest my case, lol.

I am always glad when my spelling is corrected. Living means learning.
As to the Civil war: How many people are still alive who lived to see this war and can tell their children about it? How many photo documents does exist of this war that show its cruelty?
When I was a child there had still be the remnants of bombed buildings in my hometown, by the way.

As to Saddam: You are right, he and his sons were cruel dictators who tortured their own people. They got what they deserved but not the civilians that died.
Saddam is still alive and I would not exclude that he returns to power in several years when the U.S. leaves Iraq like they left Vietnam. Would you exclude it? You gave Saigon to the commies, didn't you? Same may happen in Iraq.

Similar conditons like in Iraq are at least in a dozen other countries all over the world. Idi Amin even ate the hearts of his enemies back in the 70s. I saw no U.S. troops in Uganda then to stop him (maybe there is not enough oil in Uganda).

OK, when you want to clean the world from cruel dictators start with China (they kill their students with tanks) or North Korea (who are the #1 providers of dangerous weapons for dangerous countries and maybe terrorists).

But the forces of these countries are not on the brink of demise due to long-term embargos and former wars. Could be too dangerous to attack them.
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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

A) We are not the navel of the world. We're the heart.
B) After reading your posts with interest over the last
month, I was beginning to think you were well informed
and had some "food for thought" opinions. Now I realize
that you are superficially informed and actually biased
which is in no way conducive to intelligence.
C) Dontcha' think ScotCK is clever and amusing in spite of
his/her(?) little ongoing argumentative repartee?

Please get informed of the history of your country before you accuse me to be superficially informed.

Your are the one, who is NOT informed:

On December 7, 1941, the Japanese bombed the U.S. Pacific fleet at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. On December 8, Congress declared a state of war with Japan; three days later its allies, Germany and Italy, DECLARED WAR ON THE United States.

Regarding the U.S. and heart: I can think of another part of the body.
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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

Have you ever noticed how much Arabesques look like a cross between Longicauda and Amarali? Hmmmm.

It amuses me that people who read a few foreign newspapers assume they know all our "big secrets." Of course everything you've read is true...it's in print isn't it? Unless it's American print...then you should hold it in suspect. But it's a German paper! They know us better than anyone, hmm?

I will say this, though. I DO believe we should examine Saudi Arabia much more closely. I believe Bush should hold them up to the same precise scrutiny he is holding to our more obvious enemies. I also understand that such a thing is far more easily said and speculated on than done. It being a horrible political mess, though, doesn't make ignoring it right.

I still think we did the right thing in Iraq, from a big-picture point of view.

How many Saudis have terrorized us since 9/11 Stroeckl? None! Whatever Bush has done regarding the Saudis and 9/11, he's been effective. Hooray for Bush for balancing our interest in oil with stifling terrorism against us. But you hate America an can wait until something bad happens to us. You are a POS!

Snake Feller

Snake Feller

More violence creates more hatred? You should have told the terrorists that before they attacked us! Now before we start this up again, how bout we avoid a long drawn out, ridiculous thread by having you tell us what your reaction and solution would have been for 9/11.

Thankfully, you are not in charge of anything, exept chasing those little Hedge Hogs around in the jungle.

Snake Feller