Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This is public record, so it's ok to post. Turtles, rattlers, etc in upstate NY.

http://blogs.timesunion.com/green/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/operation-shellshock-search-warrant-application.pdf
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1.0 Blackheaded pythons
2.4 Woma
3.2 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.3 Bloods
2.2 IJ Carpets
2.0 Coastal Carpets
1.3 Macklotts
1.2 F2 Carpondros
2.1 Jungle Carpet
1.0 Jag IJCP
0.1 Carpondro
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow boas
1.1 Striped Bolivian Boas
0.1 Madagascar Tree Boa
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

Read below the main article for more information. Turtlesale.com is one of companies charged with Lacy Act violations for sending CB hatchling native turtles into NY state.

Now, I'm not a fan of TS, but let's face it, any of us could have broken this law. Most of us take or at one point have taken unwanted or abused or abandoned reptiles that need new homes. Can everyone here say they knew for certain that every animal they rehomed was legal to take into possession at the time? You could agree to take someone's unwanted pet turtle as a good Samaritan and find yourself in trouble with the law. (Selling a wild poached animal is a completely different story, though, IMO.)

When NY passed the new law in 2007, they made NO provisions for native species already held in possession LEGALLY before the bill was written. So, someone who had a pet eastern painted turtle for 20 years was now a criminal, no matter when, where, or how they acquired the turtle. If that person gave away that same eastern painted turtle to someone out of state, both parties would technically be in violation of the Lacey Act, because it would then be illegal to possess the turtle in NY and illegal to take it out of NY (the turtle crossed a state line illegally in that case).

That's what Turtle Sale is being charged with - they shipped legally produced captive bred turtles, of species native to New York, INTO New York, which is in violation on NY regulations, so the Lacey Act was invoked when the turtles crossesd into an illegal state. If those same turtles had been sent to a permit holder in MD, then no laws would have been broken, simply
because the regs/laws are different between MD and NY.

Always know your state laws and regulations, from whom you're buying or receiving, and what you're getting. If they won't give you a receipt with thier contact information and the Latin name of the animal, or a letter stating the transfer of ownership (for adopted/rescued or gifted turtles), walk away.

Katrina

=========================

News from New York State Department of Environmental Conservation

For more information contact: Yancey Roy, 518-402-8000

Black Market Animal Trade Busted
DEC's In-Depth Undercover Investigation Nets 18 Arrests

ALBANY, NY (03/19/2009; 1019)(readMedia)-- An extensive undercover investigation into the poaching, smuggling and illegal sale of protected reptiles and amphibians by the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation has led to charges against 18 individuals for 14 felonies, 11 misdemeanors and
dozens of violations, DEC Commissioner Pete Grannis announced today.

The investigation, dubbed "Operation Shellshock," uncovered a lucrative, international black market for poaching and selling native, protected New York species - turtles, rattlesnakes and salamanders - through the Internet and at herpetological shows, Commissioner Grannis said. Investigators found thousands of New York turtles being laundered through "middlemen" in other states, then getting shipped overseas for meat and other uses. More than 2,400 individual turtles, snakes and salamanders were involved in the documented crimes, with DEC currently holding nearly 400 live animals in evidence.

The undercover investigation began in 2007,coordinated through DEC's Bureau of Environmental Crimes Investigation (BECI). Investigators spent hundreds of hours afield and at shows with reptile poachers and illegal collectors. They built cases from the ground up through initial contact with violators online, at
shows, and in the field.

Through the investigation, New York DEC investigators worked closely with officials from Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Florida, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, the U.S. Immigration and Customs Service, the New York State Attorney General's Office, Environment Canada and the Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources. Some of these agencies have filed separate but related charges (details below).

"Our investigators began this operation with a simple question: Is there a commercial threat to our critical wildlife species? What they found was alarming," Commissioner Pete Grannis said. "A very lucrative illegal market for these creatures does exist, fostered by a strong, clandestine culture of people who want to exploit wildlife for illegal profit. I'm proud of the success of our officers. Their work sends a strong message that the buying and selling of New York's native species will not be tolerated."

"Operation Shellshock is one of the largest, most extensive undercover operations DEC has ever undertaken," said Henry Hamilton, DEC Assistant Commissioner for Public Protection. "It stands out for its magnitude and impact, and it hopefully will be a springboard for positive change on all fronts involving ecologically significant species."

"Illegal trafficking of turtles, snakes and other animals is a serious matter precisely because such activities can produce long-term, detrimental effects to the eco-system. No one wants to see populations of vital species put at risk for short-term profits," said Kathleen M. Mehltretter, Acting U.S. Attorney for the Western District of New York. "Operation Shellshock should serve not only as a deterrent but also should raise public awareness about the need to protect wildlife."

"Environment Canada believes in ensuring that companies and individuals comply with the conservation goals of environmental and wildlife protection acts and regulations," said Albin Tremblay, Chief Enforcement Officer with Environment Canada. "The department carries out its enforcement work in cooperation with other federal, provincial and territorial governments and with international organizations. Operation Shellshock is a good example of how working together can produce positive results."

"Reptiles and amphibians are important environmental indicators that tell us much about the health of the planet. As such, they must be protected -- not exploited," said David Critchlow, Provincial Enforcement Specialist of the Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources. "Through the cooperative work of Canadian and American agencies, we hopefully have not only put a dent in the black market for these animals but also sent a strong message to legitimate collectors and the general public."

The Investigation

Investigators found New York's timber rattlesnakes and wood turtles being shipped out of state and out of the country to support high-end collectors. They found thousands of snapping turtles laundered through a Louisiana turtle farm, then shipped illegally to China. They found poachers stealing turtle eggs as soon as they were laid. And they successfully traded with a smuggler from Canada to recover a population of endangered Massasauga rattlesnakes - nabbing him in a Niagara Falls parking lot with a van stuffed with 33 rattlesnakes in hidden compartments.

Other snakes confiscated during the operation were timber rattlesnakes, copperheads and eastern hognose snakes. The types of turtles confiscated included snapping turtles, Blandings turtles, box turtles, North American wood turtles and two Yellow Spotted Amazon River turtles, which are federally protected as an endangered species.

Charges Beyond New York

In addition, as a result of Operation Shellshock, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Western District of New York are pursuing Federal Lacy Act charges against a Maryland meat processor for the knowing purchase of illegally trapped New York State snapping turtles, and
against a Louisiana turtle farm operator for the knowing purchase of illegally taken New York State snapping turtle hatchlings and the export of such hatchlings to China.

Pennsylvania authorities have charged six individuals and are continuing their investigation. Canadian officials so far have charged one individual.

New York prohibits the illegal commercialization of wildlife; a law enacted in 2006 gives protection to all reptiles and amphibians. The state also bans unlawful possession of protected species. A list of individuals cited and the charges filed by New York officials is available.

Commissioner Grannis re-constituted BECI in 2007. The investigation was led by Capt. Michael Van Durme, Lt. Richard Thomas and Investigator Daniel Sullivan. DEC reptile and amphibian specialist Alvin Breisch and wildlife educator Tom Hudak of Livingston County provided valuable support in numerous phases of the
operation, as did DEC Environmental Conservation Officers throughout the state.

www.HerpDigest.org

----------------------------------------------------

Baltimore City Paper article on snapping turtle meat processor:
http://www.citypaper.com/news/story.asp?id=17730

AND....

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/19/reptile-smuggling-ring-is-broken-authorities-say/

"The case had the familiar ring of a drug bust, but it was instead built in the unlikely world of herpetological shows and included charges against leaders at organizations like the New York Turtle and Tortoise Society, the Long Island Herpetological Society, and the pet Web site turtlesale.com (a Florida-based company facing New York charges)."

AND...

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2009/03/25_charged_with_poaching_new_y.html

"In one case, a company in Florida faces felony charges for selling captive-bred wood, spotted, and Blandings turtles over the Internet to undercover investigators in New York. A woman who answered the phone at the company, Turtlesale.com in Port Richey, said Thursday that the company had "no comment at this time.""

AND...

http://www.examiner.com/a-1913591~NY_rattlesnakes_retrieved__poachers_charged.html?cid=rss-New_York_Headlines

"In "Operation Shellshock," investigators spent hundreds of hours afield with poachers, trolled Internet sales sites and chat rooms, and posed as vendors at herpetological shows in New York and Pennsylvania beginning in 2007."

AND....

http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=781867

"Most arrests were made within the metropolitan New York area and lower Hudson Valley, although a Ballston Spa man, Sean Kirk, 34, was among those charged with a misdemeanor, Kirk allegedly sold three Eastern box turtles native to New York to Thomas for $550.

Kirk, who could not be reached for comment, has sold reptiles over the Internet under the name of Sean's Exotics, and has used the Web site [url ban]. His most recent site has been taken down."

It is unfortunate that a small number of people in the industry violate the law and bring disrepute to the entire hobby.

Fortunately a few of these vendors listed in warrants had been banned from kingsnake.com long before the incidents outlined. Unfortunately a few had not, but now are.

We have 0 tolerance for illegal activity on this site. ANYONE INDICTED, CHARGED, or CONVICTED of a wildlife crime that involves our business IN ANY WAY, be it a subpoena delivered to our office or a mention in the press that involves our web site WILL BE BANNED FOR LIFE FROM USING OUR SERVICES. No questions, no apologies, no refunds, no comebacks - EVER!

Personally, I can't understand how people who are supposed to love herps are sending hundreds or thousands of animals overseas to be eaten.

And violating the law is just that.
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1.0 Blackheaded pythons
2.4 Woma
3.2 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.3 Bloods
2.2 IJ Carpets
2.0 Coastal Carpets
1.3 Macklotts
1.2 F2 Carpondros
2.1 Jungle Carpet
1.0 Jag IJCP
0.1 Carpondro
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow boas
1.1 Striped Bolivian Boas
0.1 Madagascar Tree Boa
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

Its all about the cash I'm sure.

Mike
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1.1 Cal. Kings
1.0 Ball Python
0.0.1 Jungle Carpet Python
0.0.2 African House Snakes
0.0.1 Oketee Corn Snake
0.1 Salmon Boa Constrictor
0.0.1 Marbled Salamander
0.0.1 Japanese Fire-Bellied Newt
0.2 Labs

Jeff,

With respect to people who have been trouble, paid their dues and learned their lesson, how do you validate the termination of folks mentioned along with KS in an article, but allow others who have actually done hard time and been arrested to be on your site? What your saying is that you can have a classified ad if you've done something illegal, but NOT if your name is mentioned along with KS? I'm confused...........Please eloborate.

signed,
Confused

SR,

The person you are talking about didn't have anything to do with Kingsnake when he got busted and I think that is Jeff's point. Don't drag Kingsnake into your mess. This is Jeff's site and he can do what he wants.

However, with that in mind it doesn't seem fair to convict someone before they are convicted because...

I have been reviewing the regulations here in Texas for work on my Masters thesis and am reminded of a post Fundad made on FHF regarding the Lacey Act. Much of the regulations we are required to abide by are very loosely written, not defined, contradict each other or have a whole host of issues that are not in our favor. In other words, people can get screwed on technicalities until the cows come home. Once we get this python ban stopped we need to seriously sit down and review all the state and federal regulations and make sure we have clear and precise legal pathways to conduct our businesses and hobbies.

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

I agree with the second part of your statement. Many of the current laws have not been ajudicated(sp?) and are VERY grey including the 4" turtle law which can be interpreted in many ways. Just ask Richard Fife to elaborate sometime.

However, you missed the point altogether on who Jeff allows to post in the classifieds. If you are convicted of a F&W crime and it had nothing to do with KS, how are you any better or allowed to post on KS classfieds than those who are mentioned alongside KS in an article? You were still convicted correct? It is Jeff's site, but it's that policy, hyprocracy, and type of thinking that makes absolutely no sense at all and is actually discriminitory. I would like to think that those who have been convicted years ago are now law biding people who have paid their dues to the govt and society and learned their lesson. Why ban some for life, but not others? Still...makes ZERO sense. Might to you, but I can assure you that 9 out of 10 don't think so.

SR

SR,

No, I understand your point and I agree. People deserve second chances and the policy should be the same across the board. I also say innocent until proven guilty.

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

}If you are convicted of a F&W crime and it had nothing to do with KS, how are you any better or allowed to post on KS classfieds than those who are mentioned alongside KS in an article?

you are not. you are just not banned from ks

You were still convicted correct?

yes. murder, wildlife, drugs. By your reasoning JeffB should ban everybody who has a pot bust on their record.

It is Jeff's site, but it's that policy, hyprocracy, and type of thinking that makes absolutely no sense at all and is actually discriminitory.

I doubt your claim of discrimination would stand up to legal scrutiny.

Personally, I don't see the hypocrisy. Are you suggesting that if someone involved you in a criminal investigation, were convicted, did their time, and paid their dues; that you would accept an apology and then do biz with them again?

That is silly at best. This falls into the fool me once category. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

Would you put yourself in a position to be fooled a second time? Maybe then you get both get convicted!

I would like to think that those who have been convicted years ago are now law biding (sic) people who have paid their dues to the govt and society and learned their lesson.

Look at this definition of recidivism. Then google "recidivism rate".

Why ban some for life, but not others? Still...makes ZERO sense. Might to you, but I can assure you that 9 out of 10 don't think so.

This statement makes true the statistic that 98% of all statistics are made up. I am sure you did a survey.

See both kingsnake's published policy and statements I make above.

ks.com's published policy seems quite clear. Get ks.com involved in a criminal investigation and you are banned. Seems clear cut and across the board. Without confusion. The policies do not seem to judge people for actions elsewhere. Thus, it is not about being a criminal. It is about involving kingsnake.com in a criminal investigation. If you fail to see this distinction it is because you do not wish to see it.

It seems to me kingsnake.com is rightly trying to protect their own good name and by association that of our entire industry. For that I thank them.

Lastly, doesn't a business have the right to refuse service to anybody they choose? No reason necessary.

SR - What were you busted for?
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AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

Since I know who you are, I know your legal history, I know that you plead guilty to a federal wildlife crime and why your asking, before your banned again I will answer. You and the others chose to involve yourselves in a criminal enterprise that somehow involved our business in your criminal act. You chose to risk your own reputation, business, and criminal history at your choosing, but the moment you involved our business in your criminal enterprise you risked our business, our vendors business, our users, and our staff without their knowledge consent or approval.

That said there is no amount of "learning your lesson" no "paying your dues" that can repay the risk you took and damage that your actions caused and still cause to this business and it's users. Therefore, neither yourself nor anyone else that involves our business in a criminal act will be allowed to return. Ever.

Edited on March 23, 2009 at 11:37:02 by jeffb.

In the end, it's Jeff's playground, and he can set the rules.

And he should.
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1.0 Blackheaded pythons
2.4 Woma
3.2 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.3 Bloods
2.2 IJ Carpets
2.0 Coastal Carpets
1.3 Macklotts
1.2 F2 Carpondros
2.1 Jungle Carpet
1.0 Jag IJCP
0.1 Carpondro
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow boas
1.1 Striped Bolivian Boas
0.1 Madagascar Tree Boa
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

Jeff
Can you explain to us how kingsnake.com gets involved in this
situation? I think there are a lot of people who would like to know.

KS is effected when these wildlife criminals use KS classifieds to illegally sell or buy animals. KS is also effected when the criminals use the site to network with potential buyers, sellers, or to trick law abiding herpers into revealing locations where highly sought after herps can be found.

I hope that Jeff will consider making exceptions for people who are WRONGLY accused or charged of illegal actions. LE and the press have a longstanding reputation for overreaching in these cases and the innocent sometimes get caught up or with the guilty.

Other than that, I'd like to see KS become even more aggressive in weeding out these scumbags. Anyone offering to buy or sell animals illegally should be banned and reported to LE. As herp lovers, we should all have ZERO TOLERANCE for anyone that would imperil the animals we love or the hobby we enjoy.

Get off your high horse and remember that most of what is being sold on kingsnake is the product of captive breeding that you should be supporting. Captive bred animals include native species to New York, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey. New Jersey allows the acquisition and ownership of native reptiles through a permit process as long as the animals are acquired outside their endemic range.

Ny and PA are restricting interstate commerce illegally by not allowing the importation of native reptiles. The entire issue is ridiculous.

This company supplies and sells captive bred animals and gets punished because of illegal laws that restict interstate commerce.

Your organization and PIJAC should be supporting this company not condeming it.

Whether the law is right or wrong, legal or illegal is immaterial. The law is the law and any company or individual that entangles our business in their criminal activity without our knowledge has taken liberties that are not theirs to take and does not deserve our support. When someone uses our site to violate the law they put our business at risk, and that risk is not theirs to take.

After reading the 80 page search warrant request document it was clear that those involved knowingly and willingly violated the law not for the public good (i.e. civil disobedience to change the law) but for their own personal gain (i.e. greed). It was also clear based on the kingsnake.com references ad nauseum that those not already banned were abusing their privileges here to violate those laws.

When your web site or business is referenced so many times in a public document in regards to criminal activity, when your livelihood and the livelihood of thousands of other people that depend on your services is put in jeopardy by the criminal actions of others without your knowledge or consent, then you can lecture about civil disobedience and "illegal laws". In other words when your horse is this high, you can tell me to get off mine.

We will be happy to review the account status of anyone arrested or charged and has had those charges dismissed, but if the review determines that the dismissal was obtained through error,
or plea bargain, and that the charges themselves were valid,
that our systems were in fact used for illegal activity, then the individual or business will not be allowed to return.

We receive on average 28 subpoenas per year, and in fact received
many subpoenas in regards to this specific case. In many cases we work closely with law enforcement. Quite often we have access to documentation and information that the public does not. Finally we have a pretty good BS detector so on the rare occasion where charges have been dismissed we have the access and ability to determine the validity of the charges.

I agree with Jeff. It's somewhat akin to having drug sellers (pick your own crime) working out of your restaurant or rental home.

I'm sure there are people saying "they sold those on KS?? KS HAD to know what was going on...."

When in fact they did not know until contacted by the authorities.

I think more sympathy would have been garnered if it was done to traffic animals for "legitimate" breeding groups for the animals, rather than simply for money/profit. Not saying it's less illegal, just more acceptable in some people's eyes.
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1.0 Blackheaded pythons
2.4 Woma
3.2 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.3 Bloods
2.2 IJ Carpets
2.0 Coastal Carpets
1.3 Macklotts
1.2 F2 Carpondros
2.1 Jungle Carpet
1.0 Jag IJCP
0.1 Carpondro
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow boas
1.1 Striped Bolivian Boas
0.1 Madagascar Tree Boa
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

Ok Jeff
Since you can determine what's "BS", what are you
going to do about all the people who are selling Burmese Star Tortoises on kingsnake.com?

As far a I know there was only one shipment of 5 - 6 animals that came into this country "legally" and that was out of China. I have copies of the import documents of that shipmemt. ALL the Burmese Star Tortoises in this country are of illegal origins. Most of these animals came into this country in the last 8 years. All of those animals came out of the wild...not only did they come out of the wild, they came out of a SANCTUARY. Isn't it strange that a group of academics and their associates go over to Burma/Myanmar and all of sudden
Burmese Stars are all over the USA and being sold on your site.
Some of you will say that those animals were confiscations and came into this country "legally" through zoos because the zoos can then do what they want with them. They are still illegal. The Feds are good as smelling BS but if they know that there has never been legal documentation out of Myanmar for the export of
Burmese Stars why wouldn't they go after the people who brought them in or who have them? I saw the BS document that was being circulated from U.S. Fish and Wildlife stating that the offspring of Burmese Stars can be legally sold if the parents are of legal origin.

All you people that want to fall back on that "my herps are captive bred" forget where they originally came from.....like the wild.

Hey Jeff, kingsnake.com is never going out of business. If AIG can steal billions and get rewarded with billions more what are they going to do to you.....nationalize kingsnake.com! Put in government employees????

Take a stand with these guys because if you don't you may to run out of legal animals on ks.com and then maybe you will go out of business.

Jeff, they're arresting a guy for one Northern Red Salamander. If they want Northern Red Salamanders I can show them were they can get 10 to 100 per night.....over and over again. Red back salamanders?.......how many do you want.

You're forgetting that this isn't a permit violation. There are no permits. If these people gave the collectors permits for limited amounts and then they violated that, then I'd say ok arrest them. This is just an agenda....you have no say. This is just protectionism for the sake of protectionism.

I just don't want to see collecting from the wild end. All of a sudden everything has to be protected? Give them permits!

Every animal (from the wild) that gets into the hands of the breeders is bred to the point that there is a glut. If they're so worried about loosing them out of the wild........put some back!

Don't get me wrong Jeff, you've done a heck of a job putting this site together. You made a platform for people in the herp community to interact with each other, to get advice on care for animals, to see photos of animals, to sell animals (both WC and CB), to join groups, your site is responsible for changes to the laws for the good of the collectors, and most of all TO GET LEGAL ADVICE OR ACCESS TO LEGAL ADVICE. I commend you and your people for this.

Thanks Jeff

More later

We can't do anything until law enforcement takes action as
#1 If we remove suspected illegal animals on our own we may impede ongoing criminal investigations by law enforcement that we are unaware of
#2 If we have received subpoenas regarding an individual or his ads we are most often required by law not to take any actions until such time as an arrest is made

There is much that I cannot say because I am precluded by law from discussing ongoing criminal investigations that we are aware of and I am precluded from discussing the specifics after the fact by privacy laws. I can tell you in general terms there is always a criminal investigation occurring, usually by more than one agency, and barring that law enforcement agencies visit the site every single day looking for violations. If there is something illegal or marginally legal for sale in our classifieds you can bet someone from some law enforcement agency is aware of it almost as soon as it's posted.

In the past we have worked closely with many agencies even to the extent of allowing criminals to continue to operate long after their arrest at the request of those agencies so that they could monitor their activities. Additionally over the years we have answered hundreds of subpoenas and information requests from law enforcement. Considering the overwhelming presence of law enforcement viewing our sites, and the fact that anyone using our web site (or any web site for that matter) leaves an electronic trail that is easily followed, it is an extremely unwise criminal that uses our services to commit crimes.

As Craig over at Craig's list will tell you the media, the states, and congress all seem to have have plenty of free time to attempt to shut us down over the illegal behavior of a relatively small segment of our userbase. Already more than one attempt has been made to introduce legislation that would ban the sale of animals over the internet, and at least 1 state is currently attempting to strip our federal COPA protections regarding posts made to our sites by others because of prostitution ads posted to his site.

In fact Craig has made changes to site, even though he was not required too by law, at the "request" of a number of states in an effort to appease those agencies involved. Regardless he is still being sued by the Cook County Sheriff's Office who wants a section of the site shut down accusing Craig's list of "knowingly promoting prostitution in the US" calling it "the single largest source of prostitution in the nation". Replace the words "prostitution" with "illegal reptiles" and you can see how close our worlds parallel and the risks others can cause to our business.

The trade in illegal reptiles is a tiny fraction compared to the trade in legal reptiles that occur here. It is our hope that the few that choose to break the law do not ruin it for the many many others that are selling their animals here legally.

Jeff, you need to do what Craig did..sell 25% of your company to ebay
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1.0 Blackheaded pythons
2.4 Woma
3.2 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.3 Bloods
2.2 IJ Carpets
2.0 Coastal Carpets
1.3 Macklotts
1.2 F2 Carpondros
2.1 Jungle Carpet
1.0 Jag IJCP
0.1 Carpondro
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow boas
1.1 Striped Bolivian Boas
0.1 Madagascar Tree Boa
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

Understood.
Thanks for taking the time to reply.
I was going to say I had a different opinion about something but
I don't want to complicate your situation any more.

I did not realize that they had your hands tied.

This is getting out of hand with all the unnecessary laws.

The third world countries eventually will surpass us economically because they are less restricted. The USA is going to throttle itself with law.

I know for a fact that they don't do studies in determining what
animals should be "protected". They sure aren't protecting these trees....are they. If they want to protect wildlife, stop building. I don't see them slowing that down. How would you like to go to a Bog Turtle site and see a house on it? Or go to a place in a forest where you used to be able to collect a lot of beautiful garter snake except you can't because the area is unrecognizable due to the fact that the entire forest for miles has been striped of trees and the roads don't look the same!

These guys who are being processed for their "crimes" are going to be damaged far more than any of these big lumber companies.

How about putting a moratorium on oil!

If; like you say, some of the people in these agencies have a lot of time on their hands why don't they take a trip to the forest and deserts with garbage bags in hand and start picking up the trash that seem to be everywhere. I'd have a lot of respect for that.

Like I said before; now that sending animals INTO other states is going to be an issue, there is going to be a lot of paperwork and delays because now people aren't just going to call up a state Fish and Game office and take the word of some clerk or and officer stating that its ok to ship certain species into that state. I'm going to want it in print.

Again; thanks for the detailed reply and good luck.....we're
all going to need it.

You know, it's funny about Craigslist...they say they don't encourage prostitution, but they have a category under "services" labeled "erotic". I don't think that would be a cleaning service, lol
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1.0 Blackheaded pythons
2.4 Woma
3.2 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.3 Bloods
2.2 IJ Carpets
2.0 Coastal Carpets
1.3 Macklotts
1.2 F2 Carpondros
2.1 Jungle Carpet
1.0 Jag IJCP
0.1 Carpondro
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow boas
1.1 Striped Bolivian Boas
0.1 Madagascar Tree Boa
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

This is not an easy subject for sure. So many competing interests and motivations...

It's just not fair. Who ever said life was fair?

Public servants desiring recognition and justification for their existent position in a bureaucracy through prosecutorial misconduct, by assuming fallacious causes espoused by misguided pseudo-authority figures is certainly not the right way to protect our native wildlife, our natural heritage.

Busting backwoods Bubba at the behest of those primarily responsible for the paving over of our Planet just seems wrong.
Nothing more than an easy target to spin as action taken on behalf...that's a laugh.

We do so need to come together as a group to enlighten the public and set the record straight. Truth be told, private breeders, collectors, and hobbyists have done more to: 1) mainstream the animals plight through public awareness and education, 2) created viable captive breeding populations to relieve wild caught collecting pressures, 3) and have generated a legitimate economic niche for the economy.

We have to stop letting others drive the argument and set the agenda. Isn't anyone sick and tired of all this Herpocrisy?

How many want to bet all those confiscated animals perish at the hands of the authorities? Based on history, I'll take those odds.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

The following is the response I drafted addressing Pennsylvania regs. that are all about shifting responsibility for environmental degradation and taking away our rights to own and breed reptiles that Jeff and others just don't seem to understand.

Captive breeding and making something economically valuable are the keys to species preservation. Draconian laws that stop people from owning reptiles are certainly not the answer.

I find it dispicable that these Bureaucrats are allowed to keep scapegoating us hobbyists for there ineptitude. We need help and support to fight these laws. Where's PIJAC and Others with influence on this issue? What about permit systems? Getting slam dunked by these regulators for selling captive bred animals to people in New York who can't procure the animals from the wild and buy endemic captive bred is hard to take and real close to home because that's what I had to do in New Jersey. There should not be a problem with it, just get a receipt.

There is a problem because of New York draconian, illegal laws that organizations with money and influence, (PIJAC and Kingsnake) refuse to challenge. Now Pennsylvania has done the exact some thing as New York. Come On Wake Up People!! I can't buy a house in New York or Pennsylvania now unless I give up my reptiles because of their stupid laws and am stuck in New Jersey.

Saturday, December 24, 2005
Douglas J. Austen, PhD
Executive Director
Fish and Boat Commission
P.O. Box 67000
Harrisburg, PA 17106-7000

Re: Comments on Notice of Proposed Rulemaking; Title 58. Recreation; Part II. Fish and Boat Commission, Chapters 53 and 77; General Provisions; Fishing; PFBC Proposed Rulemaking 175

Executive Director Austen:

I have the following comments regarding proposed regulatory changes to Title 58. Recreation , Part II. Fish and Boat Commission, Chapters 53 and 77 General Provisions, Fishing, specifically, Sections: 77.3; 77.7; and 77.8.

The drafting of these proposed regulatory changes by the Pennsylvania Reptile and Amphibian Technical Advisory Committee demonstrates a serious lack of knowledge and understanding regarding the husbandry requirements (captive care and breeding) of reptiles and amphibians.

The Pennsylvania Fish and Boat Commission is supporting and sponsoring proposed regulatory changes that rely on the erroneous belief that “over collecting” is the primary culprit responsible for native species decline when, in fact, the primary cause for Pennsylvania native species decline is “Habitat Destruction” which Pennsylvania State Regulations have failed to curtail.

The Pennsylvania Environmental/Land Use Regulatory Program, as well as most other state programs (nationally), have failed miserably in their attempt to protect suitable habitat and provide habitat continuity and diversity required to support these native reptile and amphibian indicator species.

To take away the right of Pennsylvania Residents to acquire captive bred native Pennsylvania reptiles and amphibians is both ridiculous and Machiavellian. Your argument that “Conservation Officers” cannot identify wild native Vs captive born and bred native animals is easily avoided through a “permit process”.

Your Agency should be supporting Captive Breeding Programs of Native Pennsylvania Reptiles and Amphibians Not Discouraging them by making it illegal to import or export native Pennsylvania Reptiles and Amphibians.

Reptiles and Amphibians available for sale today, including Northeastern Box Turtles and North American Wood Turtles, are unquestionably captive born animals that are in prime health due to successful, achievable, private, captive breeding programs.

It is abundantly clear to me that the Pennsylvania Reptile and Amphibian Technical Advisory Committee has no appreciation for private, successful captive breeding programs that have resulted in the preservation of numerous reptile species, including, the Galapagos Tortoise, the Aldabra Tortoise, the Radiated Tortoise, the Sulcata Tortoise, the American Alligator, the American Crocodile, to name a few. To disregard captive breeding programs as a legitimate, responsible, and successful approach to species preservation is irresponsible and not based on reality.

I’ve been interested and actively involved with the study of reptiles and amphibians for over 40 years and I’ve never seen a baby wood turtle or box turtle in the wild. Do you really believe that people go out and capture, from the wild, baby turtles and try to sell them on some perceived black market?

Through these proposed regulatory changes, the Pennsylvania Fish and Boat Commission is trying to shift responsibility for native Pennsylvania reptile and amphibian population decline to some “bogey man/black market” that doesn’t exist instead of accepting responsibility for regulatory failure to protect required habitat.

It is reprehensible and irresponsible to blame private individuals for species population decline and then set up regulations to prevent the successful captive breeding of these animals because of Pennsylvania regulatory program failure. Private hobbyists, scientists, enthusiasts, and researchers are not to blame for species decline but rather over-development and destruction of required habitat is the reason for species population decline.

Here is what some of the experts say regarding private, captive breeding programs:

Practical Encyclopedia of Keeping and Breeding Tortoises and Freshwater Turtles; A.C. Highfield, 1996.

“the technical knowledge gained in captive breeding projects can contribute greatly in the success of other projects based in the natural habitat.”;

“The ultimate objective of most serious and conservation-conscious keepers is to achieve consistent and sustainable captive reproduction.”;
“captive breeding holds the most promise for eventual repopulation”;

“Breeding threatened species of reptiles in captivity is increasingly becoming the only method by which fellow enthusiasts can obtain specimens”;

Turtles & Tortoises of the World. David Alderton, 1994.

“But it is simply not enough to try to conserve turtles by attempting to prevent their capture.”…”it is their economic value that offers their salvation.”

“The turtle issue reveals the misplaced emotional fervour which presently threatens to undermine the overall credibility of the conservation movement. It would, indeed, be a tragic irony if a combination of misplaced human sympathy and continued hunting were to prove the two major forces which led to the extinction of any species of turtle.”

I support any regulations that would prohibit the capture, from the wild, of any endangered native or non-native species of reptile or amphibian.

I am vehemently opposed to any regulations that would prohibit the legal acquisition or sale of captive-bred native or non-native reptiles and amphibians. These proposed regulations, specifically sections 77.3, 77.7, and 77.8 would take away my rights to acquire and maintain in captivity, legally acquired C.I.T.E.S. II listed animals available for sale to me within the United States.

I am one of thousands of serious hobbyists, scientists, and enthusiasts that would be made criminals by these proposed regulatory changes that are based on completely faulty information.

Additionally, these proposed regulations would prevent the capture of the northeastern box turtle and north american wood turtle without first having them listed as State Endangered. This must be interpreted as an obvious legal overstep by the Pennsylvania Fish and Boat Commission of its regulatory authority.

These proposed Pennsylvania regulations are more stringent than the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service C.I.T.E.S. import/export requirements that impose “no controls on shipments of CITES II animals between States or U.S. territories…”. This indicates to me that these proposed regulations would interfere with federal regulations regarding interstate commerce, trade and shipment.

It is quite apparent that these proposed regulations have received no legal review. Furthermore, the Pennsylvania Reptile and Amphibian Technical Advisory Committee, upon which you relied for advice, is clearly uninformed and misguided as evidenced by these proposed regulations and what the individual Members have said in the Press.

I would question any recommendations coming from this Reptile and Amphibian Technical Advisory Committee and believe a re-evaluation of all of its recommendations is warranted based on these misguided proposed regulatory changes put forth for your consideration.

These proposed regulations could be amended to provide for an Annual Permit that requires “proof of purchase/receipt” of native Pennsylvania Reptiles and Amphibians purchased from outside their endemic area and certainly allow for the export of captive-bred native species to areas outside their endemic range.

Thank you for considering these comments.

And I can't emphasize WE enough!
Public name-calling, criticism, and recrimination are very counterproductive. Sure, I understand this is a subject we're all very passionate about. Taking away our herps is like removing a limb. We're all very close to this. We feel it in our bones like the changing of the seasons. It's an ebb and a flow. A circadian rhythm from deep within. Unfortunately others just don't seem to get it.
We need to get together in PRIVATE to create/set professional standards, bylaws, ethics, morals, guidelines and then self police/enforce these standards ourselves. Unfortunately, there have been a few slime balls that give the "business" a bad name. Those few who's actions tarnish us all need to be removed by "US"! We need to clean our own house ourselves. We need to become proactive instead of continually acting in a reactive/defensive manner. It's something we cannot expect those that do not understand to get right. It's something that we cannot delegate to others and expect anything worthwhile.
It is time to get of our dead asses, stop whining, and fix the problem ourselves.
jsc

-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

What Jeff has done is a great example to use as a guide.

If you want to do business on his site, you follow his rules. Works pretty well, I'd say.

I ask you -- is it just possible we could all come together for the greater good and adopt a similar model/operating structure?

Personally, I don't have a problem turning in the slime balls, myself. If they do damage to what I love, I want them out.

jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I really don't think that we are talking about people who are slime balls affecting our hobby. I believe we are talking about finding or creating an organization that protects our rights. Protecting our rights to produce and buy captive bred reptiles is what I am talking about. I just don't know how to go about starting one. I guess using Marshall Myers {PIJAC) isn't the answer because they are too busy working on something. I guess Jeff (Kingsnake) doesn't want to help.

What I can't understand is the fact that Kingsnake makes its money off of captive bred reptile breeders and dealers selling captive bred stock. What could possibly be more important than fighting the issue of government agencies taking away our rights to buy, produce, and sell reptiles. Kingsnake's viablility and existence depends on it.

Having regulators state that New York endemic reptiles shall not be commercialized is both arrogant and stupid. As I stated previously the key to saving species is to make them economically valuable and promote captive breeding.

Cooperating with New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, etc. regulatory officials is definetly not the answer.

Sir,

I agree that we need to protect these rights. I also agree that there are forces out there that are tryig to take away those rights. You should look into USARK. They support the right to possess in a responsible manner, the right to captive produce, the right to sustainably collect all species not listed as Endangered or Threatened, the right to sell wild caught, the right to keep venomous and other species of safety concern. They basically support all aspects of the industry in a responsible and scientifically based manner.

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

Yup
Didn't I hear myself say that a while ago?

John,

While I agree, this approach is not going to stop wildlife agencies from enacting left wing agenda legislation against us. You and I have clearly outlined that this does and will continue to happen. We have also outlined how and why it happens. Others have brought up that many within the industry itself help them with their agenda. I am also not sure we can do it on our own with out some regulatory backing. How would you manage industry folks?

We do need to get together and design a nationwide herp policy. I was hoping USARK would start getting this together but I bet they are overwhelmed with the python issue and the banning agenda. We need to design an over all policy for the nation and then we need to work out how to go about enacting it one state at a time. Each state has the authority to do what it wants in regards to its wildlife thus making this process extremely difficult. The biggest problem is getting folks to put in the time and money to get something done. This is the same problem we have had for years. It would be a lot easier to work at the Federal level. We need to normalize herp regulations across the nation. I can only put in so much time working on this because I have things to do to live. Most everyone else is in the same boat. We need folks working on this fulltime and that takes money. I would be happy to donate some of my time and some of my money but I don't have a lot of either.

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

Interesting, I guess I have a very different opinion. Not saying I am right, just a different opinion. Public exposure (even humiliation) of the corrupt politicians and AR organizations is, imo, the ONLY way (if there even is a way) to stop them from steamrolling over us. We are too small of a minority (and we're a minroity that likes scaley things that the majority do not like) to simply "talk amongst ourselves." I believe exposing these jokers to the general public is critical.

The other thing I'm unsure about is "self regulation." What exactly does that mean? Theoretically I'm not sure it makes sense, but practically how would it even get implemented? Who would make the rules? Who would enforce the rules and how would they be enforced? And I guess I don't agree that a few "irresponsible" keepers/breeders reflect badly on the rest of us, any more than a bad/drunk driver makes other drivers look bad or an irresponsible dog owner reflects on all dog owners. And can we all agree on what "irresponsible" means? What about buyers/sellers/breeders who don't agree with any proposed "self-regulations?" I certainly could be missing something, but I don't see how self-regulation could even be implemented, much less be effective at stopping the real enemy - the AR groups and corrupt politicians. As far as I can tell, they don't want responsible herp ownership; they want NO herp ownership.

Thanks,
Ed

>>And I can't emphasize WE enough!
>>Public name-calling, criticism, and recrimination are very counterproductive. Sure, I understand this is a subject we're all very passionate about. Taking away our herps is like removing a limb. We're all very close to this. We feel it in our bones like the changing of the seasons. It's an ebb and a flow. A circadian rhythm from deep within. Unfortunately others just don't seem to get it.
>>We need to get together in PRIVATE to create/set professional standards, bylaws, ethics, morals, guidelines and then self police/enforce these standards ourselves. Unfortunately, there have been a few slime balls that give the "business" a bad name. Those few who's actions tarnish us all need to be removed by "US"! We need to clean our own house ourselves. We need to become proactive instead of continually acting in a reactive/defensive manner. It's something we cannot expect those that do not understand to get right. It's something that we cannot delegate to others and expect anything worthwhile.
>>It is time to get of our dead asses, stop whining, and fix the problem ourselves.
>>jsc
>>
>>-----
>>"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
>>John Crickmer

"The following is the response I drafted addressing Pennsylvania regs. that are all about shifting responsibility for environmental degradation and taking away our rights to own and breed reptiles that Jeff and others just don't seem to understand. "

I would surmise that Jeff understands a lot more about it than you think he does. After all, it directly affects his livlihood.

You might want to offer MD regs as an example for other states to follow. As far as I can see, MD has the best regs for both protecting native species AND allowing commercial/pet use of native species. Those that want to make a profit from commercial harvest might disagree, but for commercial breeders and hobbiests, it seems to be the best you can expect.

MD regs allows for the possession, breeding, and selling of captive bred native species with a paper trail. Limited numbers of WC parent stock (1 or 4 depending on species) are allowed for some species, but no MD WC animals may be sold. Except for snapping turtles, you can't pick something up out of the woods and sell it.

The only exception is snapping turtles, but those are controlled by Fisheries, not Wildlife, and Fisheries still allows a commercial harvest of snappers. Breeding of snappers requires an aquaculture permit.

http://www.dnr.state.md.us/wildlife/captive.asp

Katrina

FYI, the copperhead was added to List C due to a change in the dangerous animal law in MD that was pushed through by HSUS, not DNR.

Katrina,

MD regs are NOT what we want. You can only possess 1 to 4 wild caught founder stock? That is wrong. You can't sell wild caught? That is wrong.

Every herp species not listed as Endangered or Threatened should be allowed to be harvested. What we need to push in every state is regulation based on need and managed with bag limits in a sustainable manner, period, end of story. The policy should be the same from state to state. We need to normalize herp laws so we can have a clear and precise legal pathway to conduct our businesses and hobbyies. Every state should have a herp specific collecting/hunting license and track all harvest. For those species for which there is a concern, reasonable bag limits should be put in place with all data, expert testimony and literature used to support the bag limits placed in its entirety on the states wildlife agency website for transparency and public scrutiny. There should be no possession limit and no ban on wild caught sales. This policy approach will create jobs in wildlife agencies, create small businesses in the private sector and manage herp populations in a sustainable manner. This is the only policy we should except and it is the only one we should be pushing for.

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

Who's the "WE"?

And what if your state doesn't have the money to fund a study for every species that's harvested from the wild?

MD regs may not be what YOU want, but it's a heck of a lot better than what many states currently have (such as NY, PA, IN, VA, etc.). It's deffinately better than GA, which either prohibits all personal possession, or allows wholesale collection with no limit, depending on the species (all or nothing, what a way to regulate a natural resource).

As for what OTHERS want, they can add their comments.

Katrina

Katrina,

“We” is all the stakeholders who collect, sell , keep and breed herps. You don’t have to fund and study every species in the wild. We have enough natural history information and GAP data to come up with some reasonable bag limits for those species for which there is a concern. Further, we have to track what and how many are being taken. When you put in arbitrary regulations based on the opinion of those who would just as soon see all harvest stopped you can’t get the data needed. So what should have been done first was track harvest data not come up with an arbitrary ban of 1 to 4.

I agree that all the states you mentioned are wrong and so is MD. So is KS, TX, AZ and CA. I stand by my policy opinion 100%. It is based in science, fairness, conservation and logic. Just because something is better then somewhere else doesn’t mean that it is correct. Regs need to be normalized across all states. We need to have a clear and precise legal pathway to conduct our businesses and hobbies. We need access to wild caught and sales of wild caught should not be banned. My approach is the only logical and fair way to manage and harvest herp populations. Wildlife agencies can get funding from users of the resource, the problem is many agencies do not specifically earmark herp funds for herp management. Hell let’s create an excise tax on herp related products and livestock that funds herp research. There are answers that don’t involve bans or arbitrary regulations based on opinion and agenda.

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

I think I can see some of your reasoning. Now, let's say that queen snakes would have a sustainable harvest limit of 5 per year (and assuming you could only take them from certain populations in the state, as not all populations across a state are in the same shape). How do you determine who gets the five? Have a lottery system for next year's five like they do for black bear hunt licenses in MD? I'm rather accepting of MD's black bear hunt - make money from the lottery to see who gets a license along with the money for the license.

Katrina

I say treat it the same way the commercial fishermen do it.
They are only allowed so many licenses. New operators cannot legally get in until existent operators choose to get out. Commercial licenses have take limits. They have seasons. They may have geographic limits. They have other limits such as sex and size.
Individual licenses may have different and varying quotas and other allowances, therefore differing monetary values. Licenses may be bought and sold between operators. Fish and game authorities would monitor take and periodically revise limits as determined by peer and stakeholder data review.
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

no post

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

Like how the big companies are allowed to sell their pollution emission quotas?
Not too many people are aware of that I'll bet.

I've been collecting reptiles for years commercially and for
a hobby. Can I be grandfathered in? I should be but I don't want
to see something like that because I would still like to see other people be allowed to go out into the wilds and collect herps.

What I was trying to state in my last couple of posts is that
as big as you think our industry/herp community is we are a very
small group of individuals. What we take from the wild is
very small compared to what is taken by hunters and fishermen.
How many snakes do you think are killed by hunters and fishermen each year? Maybe they shouldn't issue fishing and hunting licenses.

I very very rarely run into any herpers in the wild......probably 3 in the last 30 years of collecting. However; I run into plenty of hunters.

Katrina,

Yes, in principle you see my reasoning. In most states there are so many herp species and so little money that you couldn’t really design things by individual species in most cases (but some with high concern you would). You would group species according to harvest pressure, fecundity, total habitat acres and commonality. You would also include any information on species population health within the state. Then have different management categories for each group. Those species with the highest concern would have the strictest bag limits and management. Those species with the least concern would have zero bag limits. You track all harvest. You make adjustments every five years. For those species for which there is high concern and high harvest pressure you may have to have a lottery system but you should set it up so you can rotate in new stakeholders so that everyone has the opportunity and you may also need to adjust bag limits so more stakeholders have the opportunity to harvest their fair share. I don’t think I support having to pay for the lottery but definitely pay if you are chosen and for hunting/collecting licenses and other permits to generate revenue. Everyone using the resource should pay for the right to do so but it can’t cost prohibitively to much.

There are other considerations. If a species is declining or deemed unhealthy in an area because of development/roads and/or the area is slated for future development. Then that species should not be placed in a lower grouping just because of this. It will eventually be lost to development so harvest should be allowed and encouraged. It is very hard to manage herp populations effectively without stopping development and mitigating the impacts of roads. All data, testimony and literature used to set bag limits should be posted on the agencies public website for transparency and public scrutiny. It would also be good to establish a group of commercial and recreational private stakeholders that are active participants in the regulation process. I also don’t believe that for most species you will see bag limits in the single digits. When you start getting into single digits you are looking at a species that probably needs to be listed as Endangered or Threatened. Or the demand is huge and there are hundreds of people wanting to harvest. I think once we start tracking harvest we will see that we don’t have much to worry about. Annual total bag limits should be set and then individual bag limits. There are several different ways we can go about doling out bag limits. That is a taste of how I think management should be done.

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

While I can see the logic in what you're saying, there is one thing that I absolutely disagree with - taking animals out of the wild and selling them directly to the average consumer. IMO, and I realize it is just my opinion, and everyone has one, wild-caught, in limited numbers, should only go to breeders to produce CB for sale to the public.

I refuse to purchase WC, and I refuse to purchase from a dealer that sells WC, even if what I'm buying CB, and there are a lot of people who feel the same.

Katrina

Katrina,

It is a free country and if you want to only buy captive born that is fine by me. I certainly don't agree that only breeders can collect and dealers cannot. How do you define a breeder? I believe you are saying that you do not support the right of American citizens to sell wild caught. I strongly disagree with that and there are many folks who feel the same way I do as well.

Further, the moment you become an activist and work to take away my rights and others based on your opinion, agenda, position, moral compass (whatever you want to call it) you become the enemy. You are just as bad as other "banners" in my opinion.

The bottom line for me is that you can have any opinion you want but when you start to push your opinion on others and try to take away the rights of American citizens you have crossed the line.

I am not going to detail why wild caught should be allowed to be sold as I have done that many times on these forums. The most important thing to understand is that sustainable harvest is a proven, time tested wildlife management principle. It has years of peer-reviewed scientific scrutiny to back it up. Do you support the right of American citizens to hunt game and to fish? If so, you can apply the same management techniques to herps. But the only difference between game species and herps is that herps are kept alive, propagated and sold. Thus they need different rules then game species.

I have said all this many times before. I believe your number one concern is that you want to be sure that herp populations are being protected from over-harvest. And the answer is yes with sustainable harvest. There is no doubt. So your main concern really isn't a concern. Now, if I were you I would be a lot more concerned about habitat destruction and roads. Habitat destruction equals extinction of herps. Sustainable harvest equals viable herp populations. There is no comparison.

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

I think if someone were to collect data on
how many Reptile Collecting Licenses are issued per
year compared to how many Fishing and Hunting Licenses are issued, I think you would find that the Reptile Collecting Licenses by percentage is extremely low. I'll bet its under 2 percent.

Hey; have any herpers applied for a license to take a high powered
riffle, shoot a horned lizard, and mount it's head on their
wall?

Let's see how many people take that the wrong way!

They don't do studies anyway. Seriously.
If it sounds good; they just do it.
I've had that said to me from a person from Fish and Game.
So; why would they need money anyway?
Your money!

I take that back.....they do their studies sitting down
and reviewing the annual report forms that the COLLECTORS
HAVE to turn in at the end of the year in order to be
issued permits for the next year. NICE!

I'll try to be more exact next time.

I couldn't agree more.
Bag Limits and..... a Board of Arbitration.
If you're "up against the wall" and alone against the "machine"
you could appeal to a Board of Arbitration instead of a "judge".
A Board of Arbitration could also be the "go between" in
establishing new laws....hearing both sides. You're not going to
get that in a courtroom....they're prejudice against this.
Even if you appeal to a judge (asking if he has full discretion in the matter) he may be forced to follow guidelines and has to
prosecute even if he's and avid herper.

If USARK is making new law, why can't we?
Make a law where nothing (herp wise) can be made into law
without first going to the "board"....not the Fish and Wildlife
Board either.

If Fish and Game/Fish and Wildlife can show cause to protect
N. Red Salamander stating that they are rare....I'll show them
very different.

I'm beginning to like where you guys are going with this. Don't make it cut and dry....like where the collectors are left out in the cold.

Keep brain storming but remember; ideas are good but execution is
what matters.

More later

You said a mouthful!

"You can't sell wild caught? That is wrong"

So the guys who want to sell a ton or two of Diamond back Terrapins for the asian food market are ok?? Hogwash. Katrina's correct. I've been a resident of Md for 61 years. I don't really catch any local stuff, but for damn sure I'm not going to start catching it to sell. I see a number of local species declining. Black racers, box turtles.....etc. So you guys want to have NO restrictions? There are plenty of people just waiting to abuse any law they can drive a loophole through.

The next thing we'll hear is the nonsense that it's someone's Constitutional right to collect sell local herps.

The Md laws are effective, and something we can live with. I sense ulterior motives in some posters.

Sir,

I never said anything of the sort. You need to educate yourself concerning wildlife management and sustainable harvest before you go spewing your banning agenda and taking away the rights of American citizens. What is causing the declines in those species? My bet is habitat destruction and roads. Nope, never ever said no restrictions. I support conservation which is “wise use” not “no use.” You are reading into what I said probably because you support the left wing agenda. If you want to debate the issues that is fine but don’t misrepresent what I have said. It only makes you look like an agenda pusher. If you don’t want to sell wild caught that is your business but others do and it can be done in a sustainable manner so there is no logical reason to not allow this.

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

Welkerii is Correct

He's put a lot of thought into this.
He's not saying that we want "open season" on all herps.
He's saying that we need to be part of the decision making.
We need bag limits and not blanket protection. Sure some
animals are in need of protection but not all of them.

If the guys that were recently busted had the opportunity to
obtain permits and didn't, then I would say....yeah; go ahead
and bust them.

I live in New Mexico and they have a limit on collecting
Crevice Spiny Lizards.....30 per year. I have to pass up
hundreds of them to stay within my quota. People have no
idea just how vast some of our habitats are and how
inaccessible they are.

Don't get me wrong, New Mexico Fish and Game has some good
ideas but they also have some screwed up ideas....like $25 per
animal imported into the state.

More later

You have to go to mind set, motivation, and mentality to truly judge the merits of these issues. There are things the discussion is overlooking.

Here is a simple example: I live in Austin, TX., one of the Crown Jewels in the Crown of the Green Environmental Movement.

They just passed an ordinance here requiring anyone owning a house/home over 10 years old, requiring that they must have an energy efficiency audit before they can sell their property. What happened to my home being my Castle? What happened to my rights to privacy and my rights against illegal/unwarranted search and seizure? I don't want any so called quasi-governmental official giving my domicile what amounts to a prostate exam and paying them for the honor. Providing them with 12 months energy bills isn't sufficient?

These elected officials that feel it necessary to rescind my privacy rights in the name of energy efficiency...in the name of minimizing environmental degradation by human activity are the same ones that are GUNG-HO about paving over the Barton Springs Aquifer Recharge Zone, effectively destroying the one true environmentally sensitive Crown Jewel to Central Texas, thereby placing several endangered species' future in peril.

Why would these environmental watchdogs advocate something so damaging and counter productive to the local environment? Why? Because they are all property developers, or they are bought and paid for by developers. For the same reason their cronies are going to perform their energy audits. Money!

It's just a shake-down. A shake-down wrapped in a good-guy benevolent wrapper. That's all. Who's the real snake-oil salesman? I ask you.

jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Why, when you don't agree with someone, is it always a "left wing agenda"? Bush-lite did more damage to species protection than any prez in the last 20 years.

Anyone who starts quoting "left" or "right" wing agendas has their own axe to grind.

Can't we leave poitics out of this?

My original idea to start this thread was simply to note the issues that some people seem to have had with being "illegal" in their actions. That's all.

Have fun, talk amongst yourselves.

Jaykis,

I don’t agree with you that is true but my biggest problem with your post is that you manufactured what you thought I said. You sat there and read my post and then twisted it into something it was not. Actually you did more then twist it, you completely changed what I said into something different. Then you attacked me on the things you made up. You changed it to such a degree that it became quite obvious where you sit on the political fence. You spilled your own beans.

As for Bush he was the worst president of all time in my opinion and I didn’t vote for him either time. I also do not support his policy positions on most everything. The guy was an embarrassment if you ask me. So based on the assumption in your post you mistakenly thought I was a right winger huh? Well, wrong mister. I am a moderate that leans democratic. This again shows your stripes. You are so far left that I look like a right winger to you? That is pretty far left. You keep spilling your own beans.

This is all about politics. Politics is all over the herp industry like flies on do-do. And the left wing academics, AR groups and lefty hobbyists are a big part of the problem. Yes, there are problems on the right as well. It was a Republican that passed the road ban in Texas. And there are some “sportsmen” herpers that want to ban the sale of wild caught “because you can’t sell game animals you shouldn’t be allowed to sell herps.” It is all political. But both sides are wrong. Extremism never works, ever. We need to try and include as many people under the “bell shaped curve” as possible and exclude extreme views on both sides. That is my point in bringing up politics and the fact that you opened up the door by misconstruing my post and making false assumptions.

I do not support arbitrary regulations. I also don’t support unregulated either because I know there are those who only see dollar signs. My positions are fair to all stakeholders, they create jobs and most of all they sustain herps for the long term. I don’t see how any reasonable person could argue that my approach isn’t the way we should be heading.

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

Listen,
I am sick and tired of you and your posts. Everything some people propose is wrong in your mind.
Get off it man! Jobs, money, and whatever you think is more important, ITS NOT!!!
Your last post to Jaykis is almost identical to the reply to my posts!
You need a new idea because in the end, your ideas will loose to the politicians. You need to see this for what it is. Concerned citizens who really care about our natural environment. Some of your posts are completely ridiculous and your ideas are foolish to say the least. You are making people not want to even be part of the discussion. Maybe, and this is just a thought, you should stop posting to people you disagree with. Why, because there is no politician that would even consider listening to you.
I am done posting stuff on this Herp Law & CITES Forum because you think you can dominate whatever anybody else has to say.
Maybe you should get out of this country and see what really is going on. It is not all about us and America.

Barry,

To bad, buddy, it’s called freedom of speech. Check it out in the Bill of Rights. No, not everything some people say is wrong only those who want to support banning and arbitrary regulations based on opinion. Barry thinks my opinion is not important. Who died and left you in charge? I need new ideas? Why because I don’t support your banning agenda? Sorry, remember the Bill of Rights. I take it your getting emotional as you did in the turtle posts below? Try logic and reason instead of emotional out bursts. My posts are identical because I am consistent. Why am I consistent? Because I support principles that work across all political boundaries and are scientifically sound. There you go again spouting off degrading comments because you have nothing intelligent to say. Most politicians only listen to those with money, some just listen but believe me they are all not bought and paid for by the left wing agenda. So let’s review, I can post my opinion and my positions are the most fair, logical and conservation minded.

So if you can’t stand the heat get out of the kitchen.

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

There he goes again, saying stuff that isn't true. Let me explain something to you.
First, you don't know me or my political, ideologial, religious, or any other belief system I have. You don't understand who I am or what I am about.
Get off your high horse.
Nothing intelligent to say!! Hmm, that is not what others think. Remember, this is the internet. Anything you think or say may not even be true to who you are!
I will refer back to the other post you made. I am taking in terms of turtles. You stated yourself that you do not keep or breed them. I take from that you know almost nothing about them if you did, you would not completely disregard what I have said. Why, because other keepers and breeders believe my idea should be adopted and accepted.
Intelligent. Again, you know absolutely nothing about me or who I am.
Out burst, I believe it is spelled outburst!

Consistency, hmmm, you mention bag limits. That is not consistent at all with what you said before. Why, because it is ultimately a partial ban. An example how is pretty simple. You are allowed only a certain number of animals to collect and then after you reach that number you are then banned, repeat, banned from collecting any more!

I am not talking about nor have I mentioned any other animals other than turtles. I am not talking about lizards, which can take as little as only a few months to reproduce. I am not talking about snakes, which can take as little as a year to reproduce. I am talking about turtles and tortoises, which most species take more than 5 years to reach sexual maturity!

Yeah, you can post your opinions, but don't express them as the only, the best, most reasonable or even scientifically sound. You have yet to prove that they are!

Since you are all for personal freedoms and the ability to do as you please answer this one question.

Should rattlesnake roundups be allowed?

I never said that people should be allowed to do as they please.

Yes, I support their right to sustainably harvest rattlesnakes. I do not support using gas to get them out of their hibernaculums. I do not support animal abuse including improper housing or mishandling them. Clear enough for you?

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

You're exactly right. As long as you are within the guidelines
of ks.com you can say what's on your mind....even if it's over
and over again.

Hey; I've been overseas many times....what is it that you're saying that I'm missing?

Americans want democracy and free trade....but lets see what happens when a WalMart is being built in a small community with
a lot of MOM AND POP operations. These pro-democracy, flag wavers, and free trade people suddenly become what? Communists?
All of THEIR OWN RULES go out the window when it comes to someone else.

Hey buddy the same thing is happening right here with the
animal traders/hobbyists. The "government" is getting away with
the same thing. All they do is just keep changing the rules as they go and making new ones. No vote.

Hey my eyesight is getting bad and I sometimes can't figure out who is mad at who (whom) or who is responding to who. If someone is mad at me....tough....I've got enough problems. LOL

Seriously; try not to get POed at each other and include everyone in you efforts. These guys that have been busted are
going through the ringer. Rightfully; the animals need protection and so do people. Mabye; instead of F&W/F&G trying to protect everything...everywhere....they should concentrate their efforts in specific locations because they can't protect everything everywhere. I'd support their efforts in that case.
I know some of you will think that I'm saying that we should have specific places that are protected and the rest is up for grabs but if progress continues its going to go anyway.

Sorry for any misspelling or bad grammar.

You have responded to my last post. I made no mention of a "Left Wing Agenda". Maybe you didn't intend your reply for my post. Maybe you just misunderstood my point.
Let me be clear. I am not one of those that believes in a "Left Wing Agenda". I'm not left or right. I'm anti-ignorance. I'm against people that misunderstand, no matter how hard one tries to explain in clear unequivocal terms. I'm against those that make snap judgments based on rumor and innuendo rather informed decisions based on fact. I'm against legislation and public policy driven by fear and ignorance, myth and suspicion -- the "Chicken Little" syndrome that so pervades our society.
I'm against people like you -- those that make hasty judgments, those that misunderstand, those intellectually lazy, those cliché quoting ideologues, those mental midgets that are forever destined to do what others tell them to do.
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I've got to say -- I'm for Welkerii.
He doesn't sugar coat reality with semantics, labels, and political correctness. He shoots straight and uses language that offend those that really don't want to discuss the issues in a mature, realistic, honest, logical, straightforward manner. He doesn't pander and he doesn't play that emotionally appealing "Good Guy/Bad Guy" game with those simplistic labels.
I may not agree with every one of his positions, but the honesty is refreshing. At least he's being a man about it with his straight talk approach.
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

no post

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

Brother!

Have they changed their diamond back terrapen laws? As recent as a few yrs ago you could buy hundreds of terrapens from the seafood market. Is this still Legal?

A bill was passed a couple of years ago banning the commercial harvest. It's illegal to have a terrapin UNLESS you can prove you had it before the 2008 regulations went into affect or have proof it was not taken from the wild in MD. Breeding is allowed with a permit. So, if you know of a captive breeder in PA or another state, you can purchase one or they occasionally come up for adoption from MD rescues. Make sure you save all receipts, airbills from shipping, etc. (but that's a given for any reptile).
FYI, MD also requires the same permit for keeping turtles under 4" (so that we can be in compliance with health code regs).

http://www.dnr.state.md.us/wildlife/captive.asp
Terrapins are in "List B".

Katrina