Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I posted about the situation I am having with my Male Savannah Monitor a few weeks ago (maybe a month or so) that there was a tape worm in his stool.

I brought him to the vet a short while ago to found out that he is infested with 2 types of tape worms, round worms and other parasites (internal) that I am unsure of the name.

The vet gave my monitor an enema to confirm.

The reason for the title of my post as "Very Bothered" is how much they charged me for the medication. She prescribed Panacur and Flagyl and charged me just for the meds (5 day supply) $300 plus a $110 exam fee.

Since I love my monitor I did what I had to do to ensure survival.

A quick background: I purchased my Sav as a baby about a year ago and is now around 3' and 6 pounds plus. I have been keeping him in a 5' x 5' ceramic tile enclosure with 8" of earth to borrow, and 15 gallon water dish, a heat source up to 150 degrees and an ambient temp of 80 degrees F. all the time.

I was told from my vet that he prob had it since he was a baby and now they over infested his body.

I am happy he is in the middle of treatment but just disturbed about what I paid. I found the same meds online for under $50. I paid $300.

Sorry I just had to vent! I am happy with the treatment but very upset I got taken for a ride.

Thank you for listening,

Eric

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Eric

Yes it is disgusting that vets (not all) are now charging as much as human doctors. And lizards don't have insurance! I took a monitor to one doctor, I got a $380 bill. The animal got worse, the first vet wasn't in so I went to another reptile vet. The bill for exam, diagnosis and medicine which resulted in cure was $90. You did what you have to do but now you can shop around for an experienced herp vet who will not remove an arm and a leg from you.

If the monitor is healthy and the husbandry is correct, you could have just ignored the worms, especially with a well established monitor.
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike Heinrich,
Mike@amazontreeboa.org
www.amazontreeboa.org

Ignored the worms, really? His fecal matter was filled with worms, it was absolutely gross and overgrown.

Is that common practice to ignore the worms?

He was eating, shedding, and normal type feces (minus the 4" tape worms and round worms)

Any opinion on this is greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

Eric
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Eric

I did not realize your case of worms were THAT bad. You did the right thing.

I was mainly referring people de-worming every wild caught reptile they get. That's usually totally unnecessary; the natural level of internal parasites does no harm in a well kept, healthy reptile. Also, anytime you take a reptile to the vet, they usually insist on deworming and then you walk out with a larger bill.

>>Ignored the worms, really? His fecal matter was filled with worms, it was absolutely gross and overgrown.

>>
>>Is that common practice to ignore the worms?
>>
>>He was eating, shedding, and normal type feces (minus the 4" tape worms and round worms)
>>
>>Any opinion on this is greatly appreciated.
>>
>>Thank you,
>>
>>Eric
>>-----
>>Eric
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike Heinrich,
Mike@amazontreeboa.org
www.amazontreeboa.org

You ditched the substrate, right?

Why would one ditch the substrate? What does this have to do with parasites?

Your being OVER precautious.

Mike.

Because the ova are in the dirt. He could just change the top layer of dirt. I would. The captive animal eats some dirt when it eats, and the cycle is repeated. yes in the wild they all have a few parasites but they move around their range as they poop so not the high reinfection rate. Yes I know the parasites come from the prey animals. Perhaps he used wild caught prey animals to feed the monitor? I have a microscope and I check all my species of animals, horses, dogs, goats and even koi fish (the mucus from the scales) for parasites. Its easy to a fecal floatation and look at a slide. There is plenty of ID info on the net and in Vet books. I'm no good at protozooans, though.

I agree, Melissa; changing the substrate in some cases may be necessary, so therefore it is at least a good precaution.

Take care!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

As much as I like your name Sir, I must raise objection.

You see, if I have an animal (many a time) that is infected with bugs I think to myself I should provide the best support I can, the rest should work out - you seem to agree on that, after all we have the same name.

Here is where I opine. Changing substrate, (to change aka get rid of all of it) (could be alot, could be a little, could really really be alot) is just as you mentioned a "precaution". In reality, you take precaution to prevent, like being proactive and not reactive. The problem with that is, you cant prevent what has already happened.

Changing the substrate is reactive and wont solve nor provide hinderance to the problem at hand. So personally, I would look at other factors, perhaps go back to the basics.

Then again, what is the substrate? That is also pertinent to this gentalmens situation isn't it? So if the lizard is on news paper or eggflats (which decompose and grow bad bad stuff), I would change the substrate. If he is on 2 tons of soil, or broken glass whatever, why address that situation if that isnt a direct causality?

Did I make any sense there? Hmmmm, forgive my little spelling errors and what not hahaha.

Takecare,
MIke C.

I appreciate all of the responses that I have been getting on this post. Tonight should be the last night for the meds and I am eager to find out how next weeks fecal exam will turn out.

As far as the substrate I ditched 500 lb's of soil from his cage. My reasoning being that I just spent $410 or so to get rid of the worms, why would I take any chances at this point?

The vet told me to rid the substrate so I followed her advice.

I will keep this message updated once I find out if this round of meds did the trick.

Thank you for all your help!

Eric
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Eric

Goodluck, let us know what happens.

Takecare,
Mike.

"i object."

Overruled.

All the background info needed to make a reasonable conclusion is contained within the first post of this thread. Therfore I find your objection to be without merit, thus the overruling I have handed down.

The monitor has been in the owner's possession since it was a baby; aproximately one year. A worm was recently found in the monitor's feces so the owner took it to a Vet for further examination.

No offense to the owner intended, but it appears that the owner isn't experienced enough to know what constitues a crisis concerning parasitic worms. Thankfully they have the good sense of seeking Veterinary opinion, thereby erring on the right side.

The worms came from somewhere; they didn't just appear out of thin air. Do you know where they came from? I don't either. Were they within the monitor all this time, did it ingest eggs attached to prey, or did it ingest eggs from within the cage's substrate?

Given the experience level, a possible worm infestation in a monitor that has been under the same care for one year, and enough care/concern to seek Vet assistance, you pull out all the stops. While I may gamble and/or experiment with my own captives, I don't gamble with someone else's captives. It's my job to try to help people avoid paying another $400 a few months later.

Had they said they had two feet of dirt substrate I might've suggested replacing just the top layer, but they said they had 8 inches of dirt. If you're going to replace 4 inches out of 8, you'd might as well replace it all & be on the safe side.

Speaking of being on the safe side - by reading between the lines I sensed this keeper wants to do everything they can to rectify & prevent. Had they portrayed more of a confident rebel image than a conservative, precautionary one, I might not have suggested substrate replacement. It appears that I was right because they said that they had already replaced it. Not only that, but the Vet suggested likewise.

Adjourned!

HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

Hahahahahaha,

Guilty - of not reading the entirety, my bad. I see he had 8 inches of material thus changing it wouldnt be hard.

Keep up the good work judge.

Mike.

The parasites were always there, the animal is in some physical stress that caused the parasites to show in mass numbers, before this time they were in check.
Vets tell us things like change the substrate because over the years keepers told vets what they wanted to hear, not the truth, so the info is passed on to the next generation and so on. So now allmost vets think that reptiles should be kept on newspaper, in sterile aquariums with screen lids, and fed a reconstituited dehydrated diet or dogfood.
The parasites were always there, the worms die when they exit the body if not picked up in a very short time, such as hours. The worms reproduce by dropping eggs that can survive longer outside the host body, therefore they have suceeded in the survival game.
The animal in question is a bosc monitor, there are no CBB bosc monitors around now, and havent been except some hatched years ago by a few people, so it is Wild Caught, therefore it has internal parasites native to Africa (ah ha, check the species of parasite, and its native origins).
The owner needs to focus on proper husbandry, by the way deworming doesnt mean by any stretch of the imagination that the worms are all gone. This just means that a large number are gone from one stage of life. In fact a sick monitor can cough up, and crap out worms after multiple treatments for months, usually before the animal dies.
The host was expelling worms in a hurry for other reasons, not because the worms just magically appeared, or because they got worms from a food item. How many times are a farmed rat or mouse from the US going to be infected with a worm which is indigenus to Africa and is found commonly in bosc monitors? One in a billion maybe?
Id have to say that I wish the original poster good luck, and I hope that the deworming doesnt kill your monitor, and Id also have to say that they should now focus purely on a proper environment, and proper care for this monitor, or any afterwrds, not internal parasites.

" The parasites were always there, the animal is in some physical stress that caused the parasites to show in mass numbers, before this time they were in check. "

Nematode infestations don't go hand and hand with physical stress . Animals keep round worms in check by limiting exposure. The reason the worms increase is because of exposure rate. The worms don`t multiply inside the animal . The animal has to be ingesting a higher number of eggs or larva for the worms to increase.Its not that the conditions were bad for the lizard it's that they were good for the worms. There could be number of reasons. Keeping things clean is the best defense . Round worms are all about exposure.

It's irreverent if the worms originated in Africa or not , nematodes that infect reptiles are everywhere. Their the most common animal on earth and can be introduced in a number of ways . Live prey the most common. It's not unusual for Domestic rats and mice to be worm vectors. Roach's , crickets whatever.

When Nematodes show up in an animals stool it's not because the host was expelling worms in a hurry. Round worms don't attach themselves to the host they basically swim around in thedigestive track sometimes they get caught up when the animal go's and they get flushed out.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

[It's irreverent if the worms originated in Africa or not , nematodes that infect reptiles are everywhere. Their the most common animal on earth and can be introduced in a number of ways . Live prey the most common. It's not unusual for Domestic rats and mice to be worm vectors. Roach's , crickets whatever.]

I think you mean, 'irrelevent'?) But thanks for the information!!

Internal parasites kept naturally in check by the hosts body do not reproduce in excess, this I know from experience, and so does any long time reptile keeper. Internal parasites such as nematodes do however show up in excess numbers when the animal is kept in conditions that cause the hosts immune system to be compromised, ie high stress, bad husbandry.
Do you realize that nematode worms are found in every live cricket we feed to our reptiles, but these nematodes do not live in the reptile that eats the cricket, yet while the reptile eats crickets it shows a nematode infestation during fecal exams.
We tested this info by switching some insect eating reptiles from crickets to roaches that did not have the nematodes. It has to do with what species exactly is found in the fecal exam, many roundworms can only make use of a certain species ie insects, such as crickets, but not one species of reptile. So yes it matters if the parasite comes from the animals home country, or is naturally found here in the US (or where ever you live at the time), this tells you that the parasite was always there, or came from either the importers care, the dealers care, or yours.
Ill be willing to bet that not one of my CBB monitors has an internal parasite species found naturally in their ancestors country of origin.
Aside from these facts the important part is simple, the host is not adversely effected by internal parasites when healthy. Id rather fix the problem rather than treat a simple symptom.

Pinworms are found in all crickets.

" Internal parasites kept naturally in check by the hosts body do not reproduce in excess, this I know from experience, and so does any long time reptile keeper.: "

Most " experienced/long time keepers " use that same general terminology. Many of these same keepers pass along and believe a lot of common misconceptions. That word experience gets thrown around alot.

The immune system does play a role in controlling nematodes to a degree and I can outline all types of scenarios but the major factor and the one that usually comes into play is :

Nematodes are escalated by living conditions that are favorable to the worms. The main way they are introduced is via a prey item. Rats and mice are worm factory's.

In most cases they increase in the animal due to repeated exposure. Heavy roundworm infestations are commonly seen in animals of all types that are well taken care of. This is because the animal spends a lot of time in a heavily infected area. A closed system / cage that supports eggs and larva. Repeated transmission within a short time frame.

Keeping things CLEAN is the best way to control a worm infestation. Frozen thawed food will help. UV lighting also is useful for controlling nematodes. Natural sunlight is best. The animal that started this topic was raised from a baby to three feet and weighed 6 lbs. in a year. That's being taken cared of. When he saw the worms the animal was acting normal in every way . No puking , diarrhea , etc. It was a typical case of roundworms and the treatment was correct. The suggestion to change the substrate was a good one. Common sense.

No it doesn't matter where the worms originated. African round worms are just like the ones everywhere else. The animals contract them the same way and you treat them the same way. Just because the lizard had worms when you got it doesn't mean it can't get them from how your currently keeping it and just because the animal might have gotten them in your cage doesn't prove you did anything wrong . There everywhere, any animal can get them at anytime. People go to pet stores they buy their food and supplies from these places. Pet stores carry all kinds of animals from everywhere things get passed around. All kinds of cross contamination go's on. It's amazing what shows up.

PS thanks Susan for correcting my typo.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

And I suspect a great recycler of parasite ova is the reptilian water bowl. Please see above post.

"Nematodes are escalated by living conditions that are favorable to the worms"
Exactly, subpar living conditions are a big problem, an unhealthy host cannot keep parasites in check. Parasites do not and never will try to kill a host, not parasitic worms, they need a living host, the longer living the better. If a parasitic worm was designed by nature to kill its host the worm would have been extinct a long time ago.
The parasites do not spread from the substrate, they spread from feces, and food. Parasitic worms that come out of the host are either dead, dieing, or are in the stage of life that they are reproducing. Any way, they do not survive in the substrate away from the host for very long at all.
Vets have used the excuse for years that parasites are spread in dirty cages, but why are they more common in animals kept in sterile cages with paper or useless substrates than in cages with appropriate substrates?
Common sense to me.
You know I had a few great herp vets, one retired I think, and the best one moved with her husband who is in the military to another state. Both disagreed with the typical misconceptions told by most vets, and also agreed with the use of whole prey animals, high basking temps, and could identify species of worms in a fecal exam and the country or continet of origin. Yes, they said that th species of the worm is how you tell it apart.
Why have most of us never had a problem with internal parasites, and we dont bother treating for them, yet our cages are the "poster child" for what vets commonly say are a serious problem for worms?

[His fecal matter was filled with worms, it was absolutely gross and overgrown.]

I think I'd find that shocking to see too, but am curious, what have you been feeding him and could it be the source of the infestation?

When you see high concentrations of worms in the fecal matter you are seeing the parasites trying to pass and leave the host as fast as possible. This tells me that they sense the host is not healthy and they must move on or die themselves without being able to cycle themselves properly.
Focus on proper husbandry, find the real problem that is causing the lizard to be sick, and fix that, the massive amounts of parasites among fecal matter is a symptom of a much bigger problem.

What may bother you more (not my intent) is that he would have likely did fine without all of that as long as you are supporting the animal enough...but, you learn somthing at every corner in this business, and you just have with your ordeal.

Goodluck,
Mike.

Personally I deworm all my animals. W.C. and new animals coming into my collection are dewormed. It is simply precautionary, but is a good practice IMO.

"I did not realize your case of worms were THAT bad. You did the right thing."

When would it be a good idea to not deworm an infested animal?
Worms are a parasite and without treatment in captivity they will thrive and eventually kill the host.

Sorry to hear about that bill!

LC

>>When would it be a good idea to not deworm an infested animal?
>>Worms are a parasite and without treatment in captivity they will thrive and eventually kill the host.
>>

A healthy animal keeps it's parasite levels in check, in captivity just as they do in the wild. The only time the parasite levels get the upper hand is when the animal is weakened by poor husbandry or stressed from too much molestation (handling)...this is the only way "in captivity they will thrive and eventually kill the host" happens.
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike Heinrich,
Mike@amazontreeboa.org
www.amazontreeboa.org

"The only time the parasite levels get the upper hand is when the animal is weakened by poor husbandry or stressed from too much molestation (handling)."

"...or stressed from too much molestation (handling)"

I feel that this also falls under "husbandry," and I believe you're dead on target.

McK - Don't feel like you're being attacked, don't take the responses personal, as they're dealing with "deworming as a precautionary or preventative measure."

Monitor-specific: The trauma a monitor goes through in order to be dewormed can be long lasting & devastating. Both physical & emotional trauma, but probably more emotionally than anything else.

I've got a nile that will allow me to do things within its cage without affecting its behavior. Deworm her once and I guarantee that nobody can get within 5ft of it for 6 months, at least.

I strongly advise against deworming as a preventative or precautionary measure for most, if not all, of today's common reptiles. "Spyder's" questions:
"How long did it take for one of your animals to die from an overabundance of parasites?
Do you have any accounts you can speak of that are as a direct cause of said bugs and not husbandry?" might seem a bit pointed but he's right in asking for proof. Many of us speak from personal experiences - as in - having witnessed good husbandry practices eradicate parasites. Even a few, fairly severe "infestation" cases. All done without unnecessary trauma to the animal - the way Nature is intended to work.

Consider this: Years ago the medical world was gung-ho about administering antibiotics at the first sign of symptoms. As a result we now have viruses & stuff that scare the heck out of typical antibiotics. Viruses & stuff developed immunity to the antibiotics that were popularly administered. Penicillin was king for several years, now look at it.

In the case of the original post - I most likely would've suggested getting the husbandry corrected so that Nature can take its course. After hearing what the Vet said I might've suggested and/or agreed with deworming.

Let me share my view about the Vet situation in the original post: Most Vets have a scientific mindset, and there's nothing wrong with that, but sometimes it can hinder "real-world" views, thoughts ("real-world" mindsets aren't perfect, either). In this case, the Vet said, "...he is infested with 2 types of tape worms..." and charges an outrageous price for the meds. Lead & snare? You be the judge.

Eric, I do hope you're looking for another Vet. I sure would be. While I don't like to encourage the general public to take up administering meds on their own for fear of bad dosing, improper treatments, etc, I will say this: Calculate the dose rate according to dose size and animal size, per each med you were given, for future referrence. Actually, rather than that, I suggest re-evaluating your husbandry because I believe that had your husbandry been spot-on, you would've seen improvements within the timeframe of your first post about it & the Vet trip.

Please don't take offense to that because I'm not trying to embarass you or anything like that. None of us are perfect. Don't think for one minute that every one of my reptile cages are spot-on every minute of every day. I is human. Ha! Ha!

Ya'll take care!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

>>
>>"...or stressed from too much molestation (handling)"
>>
>>I feel that this also falls under "husbandry," and I believe you're dead on target.

I do too, but many people don't see a connection between handling/stress being part of poor husbandry; that's why I decided to list it separately & spell it out very clearly
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike Heinrich,
Mike@amazontreeboa.org
www.amazontreeboa.org

" Monitor-specific: The trauma a monitor goes through in order to be dewormed can be long lasting & devastating. Both physical & emotional trauma, but probably more emotionally than anything else. "

Why ? Usually when someone says their going to worm their animal they mean their going to give it panacur (fenbendazole) . Essentially treat the animal for Nematodes,Strongyloides , Ascarids . The basic round worm stuff. Panacur is a pretty good all around wormer. It's also very safe.

Most animals that are wormy still eat so all you have to do is load the food with the medicine. You don't need to shot gun them. Everything else as usual. Smaller meal is smart. This has always worked good for me when a worm out was needed.

Erne Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

Oops! I'm showing my inexperience. (blush)

I haven't had to medicinally deworm a reptile in over 30 years. Back then, the few that I did, "shotgunning" was the method suggested. Shotgunnin' was what I was thinking about when I made that post about trauma. Therefore, I have to 'fess up - I have little medicinal deworming experience. I'm not ashamed to admit that. In fact, I proudly admit that.

Good husbandry = happy, healthy captives.

Later!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

How long did it take for one of your animals to die from an overabundance of parasites? Do you have any accounts you can speak of that are as a direct cause of said bugs and not husbandry?

You see to me, it seems the problem isn't parasites, but not understanding the animals one is working with.....

Please keep in mind I am not speaking against deworming, but I am raising objectivity.

Mike.

>>How long did it take for one of your animals to die from an overabundance of parasites? Do you have any accounts you can speak of that are as a direct cause of said bugs and not husbandry?

"in captivity they will thrive and eventually kill the host"

There's one difference between a host/parasite relationship in captivity vs. in the wild and that is HUSBANDRY.
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike Heinrich,
Mike@amazontreeboa.org
www.amazontreeboa.org

Parasites dont kill hosts, that would make them go extinct from being an unsucessful species, parasites rely on live hosts to live, and reproduce, sometimes multiple hosts in different life stages just to go from egg, to reproduction.
Did you realize that all crickets have the same kind of internal parasite(a certain round worm) in their digestive system regardless of what you do, but these dont pass on to our reptiles, yet they show in their fecal tests when the lizard eats them though.

Pinworms in crickets.

It is sad that vets are charging more for the same services, banks are charging more for interest rates, and the economy is bad, I guess they are among the many working to make it worse.
A healthy monitor will and can live perfectly fine with many many internal parasites, I stopped testing and treating my monitors years ago, they only became sick afterwards.
The lizard has its own way to control parasite populations when its healthy, basically you were given proof that yours is wild caught, but for those who see negative tests, the parasites dont always show up, only when they pass, or are reproducing. 20 tests in a few months could show negative, one may show positive, all because of timing.
Focus on proper husbandry and you wont have a reason to suspect parasites.

Hi SHvar. Hows that dragon in your basement?

I noticed vets started charging a whole lot more for services starting years ago. I used to be a veterinary nurse (tech) before I was a human nurse.

Country vets used to charge to some extent on the value of the animal. I could get a chicken hen examined and treatd for $5. A few years later they are charging "exotic" prices like a chicken was a dadgumed parrot. They would not charge more to pull a calf than the calf was worth for instance. Now it "obstetrical services". No wonder ranchers are going out of business.

As suburbia crept outward people would pay a ton of money to get their $20,000 alpacas or their pet child substitutes or whatever treated at whatever expense, vets would want to get fancy "cat scanners" and such to play with, using human lab services, etc. and they started charging a whole lot more because they could. If you go way off out in the country you can still find old timey vets. If we shop around in urban areas for experienced herp vets who have good results and have reasonable rates thats the way to do it before we need a vet badly. Whether this guy needed a vet or not sooner or later all of us will need a herp vet.

I understand y'all are alarmed at the worms and its the husbandry. But if I had one of my monitor crapping just about pure worms I'd get rid of the worms too first of all. I hate parasites. If there was something else wrong with the monitor one would think the vet would have noticed it. Looks like people have pounced all over this guy about his husbanry so bad he has not even come back to post anymore.

>>If there was something else wrong with the monitor one would think the vet would have noticed it.

Most vets aren't that skilled (or interested) when it comes to herps.
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Mike Heinrich,
Mike@amazontreeboa.org
www.amazontreeboa.org

That could be why many doctors misdiagnose people......

hmmmm we may be on to somthing.

hahah,
mike.

Great minds think alike...could it have something to do with first names ? ? ? Hmmm......

>>That could be why many doctors misdiagnose people......
>>
>>hmmmm we may be on to somthing.
>>
>>
>>hahah,
>>mike.
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Mike Heinrich,
Mike@amazontreeboa.org
www.amazontreeboa.org

"Great minds think alike...could it have something to do with first names ? ? ? Hmmm......"

Forget about the fact that I agree, but, what's in a name?

Take care!
Mike (HH)
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

Statistics don't lie!

>>"Great minds think alike...could it have something to do with first names ? ? ? Hmmm......"
>>
>>Forget about the fact that I agree, but, what's in a name?
>>
>>Take care!
>>Mike (HH)
>>-----
>>Due to political correctness run amuck,
>>this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
>>Appalachian American
>>
>>
>>www.natures-signature.com
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike Heinrich,
Mike@amazontreeboa.org
www.amazontreeboa.org

hahahaha.

ha.

haha.

Mike.

Shes doing good, her and our cat were staring each other down last night from opposite sides of the glass door on her cage. Shes a monster, but so calm, inquisitive, almost seems affectionate to those she knows well.

She was probably considering eating the cat

My big BT girl is like that too. But she will still give me an occasional love pat with the tail. They are such characters aren't they? Super, SUPER intelligent.

the stuff you buy cheap online is cheap for a reason (ie not the same medication and probably sugar pills if your lucky or could even be something harmful) there are a lot of pharmacy scams out there! That said don't know about Flagyl but Panacur should still be relatively cheap. If you want cheaper care you need to find a cheaper vet. I would expect to pay that much for a large dog, but economy is bad and Vet school cost as much as medical school and people have to pay bills. Veterinarians do not make a lot of $$ and they pay ~ $200K for school.

Also if you don't completely disinfect the entire cage and get all new substrate your lizard will get reinfected as there are eggs all over the place in your enclosure.

good luck
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

You definitely got mugged.

If your animal has grown from a baby to 3 ft and weighs 6 lbs it sounds like your doing good. Any animal can get worms. It happens even in captive born animals. Generally the animal ingest eggs via a carrier. Rats / mice, even insects. It helps to feed frozen thawed.

Usually I don't treat for worms based on experience this works best and isn't necessary. There are exceptions like if an animal is showing signs of weight loss or is regurgitating then I treat them immediately. Panacure is pretty safe and works good. In your case you probably did the right thing I'm not going to say it was a bad thing. If your animals appetite was still good and it's stools weren't watery that's good sign that things weren't completely out of hand. Were the worms still alive ? It's not uncommon for reptiles to pass living round worms .Tape worms usually come out in pieces.

Tape and round words live in the digestive track and basically steal food for a living. That's why you find them in the stools , they get flushed out These types of worms don't do much in terms of tissue or organ damage so their not really a serious threat if their present in low numbers.

There's are some worms like lung worms that are real destroyers and kill the host every time.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

>>There's are some worms like lung worms that are real destroyers and kill the host every time.
>>

Are lung worms detectable in the feces ?
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike Heinrich,
Mike@amazontreeboa.org
www.amazontreeboa.org

Hi Mike,

Lung / tongue / Pentastomida worms . I think it's possible but difficult to detect in a fecal . There's one type that specializes in monitors.

The thing about these worms is that they don't use the reptile as an intermediate host , the snake or lizard is the final host. Because of the location and the type of damage it's pretty much impossible to treat. You might have a million to one shot with Ivermectin . If you find eggs via a fecal exam that means there's adults and the adults have been there a while. The damage is done.

From what I have seen the way someone generally finds out their animal has these is they perform some type of worming... panacure , Ivermectin etc. This drives any worms that are feeding in the nasal cavity into the animals mouth and then the snake or lizard spits it out. They look like rigatoni. Then the infected animal dies soon after.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

Hi,

Lungworms and tongueworms are too very different animals.
Longworms have a direct cycle and can multiply in a terrarium, the treatment of choice is levamisole (fenbendazole and ivermec work less well). It can really kill of your animals quickly.
Lungworms are hard to detect in faeces.

The tongue worms have a indirect cycle and won't multiply in a standard terrarium, cause the intermediate hosts are gone.
They are much less dangerous and will die out eventually.

the problem with treating both worms is that if you kill them you end up with dead worms in their lungs and nasalcavity. those worms will start to rot and cause a infection with secundary bacteria. this is what kills the animal if there are a lot of worms...
That is I guess why some people don't want to deworm their monitors/reptiles and in a lot of cases the are right.

With the pinworms and hookworms in the gut it is a different story I think. These worms are not dangerous in LOW NUMBERS, but in hogher numebers they destroy the gutsurface and weaken the animal. They have a direct cycle so they can get overwhelming fast.
If you treat these (fenbendazole treatment of choice)They will die and be digested or expelled without problems. The larval stages in the body will not die, you will only kill the adults, so no rotting worms... But you will need to repeat this treatment for 2-3 times with 2 week intervals to kill the newly developed adults.
Tapeworms are not really dangerous in the end host, it is the intermediate stage that is the real killer.
There is a pig tapeworm whiping out mexican villages and is also seen in south US.

My advise would be to treat pin and hookworms and tape worms. The monitor doesn't need them and they can cause problems.
treatment is usually very safe. Lung and tongue worms are a different story, you would have to evaluate each case on it's own.
I must say that monitors are much tougher than most other lizards.
Usually 1 or 2 treatments are enough to get rid of the parasites and then they stay gone. In bearded dragons for example this is not the case, the coccidiosis and worms keep coming back in those.

Best way to avoid most of these problems: BUY CAPTIVE BRED ANIMALS!! they don't have the indirect worms at all and are not weakend by the transport/storage/mistreatment, but I think you all know that...

Jasper

Valuable information. Thank you!

A question about live prey, parasite infestation- if we buy CBB animals and feed exlusively f/t prey, does this practically eliminate future parasite infestations, or just reduce the risk? Thanks.

You know with CBB or WC monitors Ive not had problems since I stopped worrying about parasites aside from WC with ticks or mites. I had some that were treated years ago, and most of those treated died within a few weeks to a few months afterwards.
With no other health problems the worms stopped showing up on fecal exams among my WC reptiles, were they gone? I dont think so, but living in harmony with their host as they are designed to do, after all a parasite that kills its host would go extinct from being a bad design by nature.
CBB monitors are the way to go, no native parasites unless they came from the dealer, no native diseases, and never saw freedom so they dont know what they are missing therefore they are not stressed out by being in captivity when their needs are met.
F/T food is safer, very safe in fact, alot cleaner, cheaper unless you have an operation that breeds hundreds to thousands of prey animals at a time.
Mine have eaten wild food on occasion, but I dont worry about parasites, they will never cause them a problem.

" Lungworms and tongueworms are too very different animals. "

So your saying these names both are both Pentastomida. And both look like giant segmented maggots that come crawling out of the animals mouth. I've seen the name toungeworm used in association with the large segmented kind along with references that live in the lungs of their hosts.

Or are you referring to toungeworms like the small black ones you see sometimes when you see living in the mouth. A type of Fluke ? Trematodes.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPETILE FARM INC.

Hi,

Tongueworms are Pentastomids/maggots/indirect cycle
Flukes are Trematodes/little black things/indirect cycle
Longworms are Rhabdias/real worms/direct cycle

All these parasites can be found in the lungs to make things easy...

Jasper

Thanks Jasper, I understand the various life cycles it's the common name terminology.

Let me ask you this have you ever seen an animal cough up a Pentastomids/maggot and live to tell about it? I first became familiar with them by working with large bitis. A large number . Classic. Your dead right about being gun shy because of ,

" the problem with treating both worms is that if you kill them you end up with dead worms in their lungs and nasalcavity. those worms will start to rot and cause a infection with secundary bacteria. this is what kills the animal if there are a lot of worms... "

"They are much less dangerous and will die out eventually. "

True if the animal can ride it out. Problem is a lot of the times eventually never comes .

Ps I have whole lot of vet buddies. Your post about the pricing . Your right.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

Yes this reminds me of the chicken wormer piperazine. You put it in their water and the worms get drunk and pass out. When they come to the chicken is gone. Aggies told me this.

[It helps to feed frozen thawed.]

Finally! That's the answer I was looking for.)

Howdy howdy.

Not going to comment on the treatment, because only you can determine if the vet actually took you seriously and really gave the animal the once over.

Exotic Exam Fees range in my area between $45 and 78. A short drive to chicago brings a price of an exam up to $150.00

Meds are influenced by many things. Things like Flagyl is a human and a veterinary drug, but see the funny part is, the human drug is cheaper than the veterinary formula. No clue why. EXACT same pill. Now oddly enough markup on veterinary drugs USUALLY is no where near the level.

Panacur is a little bit pricier for vets. There is also a charge for the cost of bottles.

As someone mentioned mixed into the price is the cost of overhead; building, staffing, insurance and the ever increasing utilities cost. Unfortunately all these prices get passed on. Add to that in the economy as we see it, people are doing things less than they should, such as taking their animals to the vet. Instead they are taking their sick animals to rescue and shelters because they can not afford to treat. All this raises the price of the vet visit.

If you felt the vet was competent and capable, continue to use the services as needed, but keep a fund on hand. Purchasing meds online can be improper meds, expired meds, not quite the right meds and can in effect be more dangerous than the first vet bill.
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Cindy
PHFaust

Email Cindy

Land of the Outcasts!

Hi,

I am a vet myself, but not in the states, but in The Netherlands.
I can tell you that the worth of your meds is about 3 dollars, yes really: 3 dollars.
I would have charged 15 dollars for the faecal and 10 dollars for the meds incl the bottles....
Those american vets never stop to amaze me with their prices!!!
I would be out of a job real soon if I tried that over here...

Jasper

Oh by the way,
panacur doesn't work well against tapeworms, you need praziquantel (droncit inj) I hope she gave your animal a shot of that, if not she's not worth 1% of what she is asking...

Jasper

Yeah I caught that , I'm glad you mentioned it. The poster did say tapes but didn't say if it was the vet that told him or if it was his own conclusion. If it was the vet.........ouch. In all fainess not all vets bleed you it's like anything else variable.

Ernie Eison
Westwood Acres Reptile Farm Inc.

Yes! See wHat I mean? Just like an old time practical veterinarian in the US. I buy that wormer febendazole I worm my horses, dogs, goats, a whole herd, and my _______'s with, for $7.50 a bottle. Vets in America have become like human internists! It makes me kind of sick. I guess I'll go see my vet now hahahahahaha!

I can get the same "over the counter meds" to prevent fleas from the same manufacturer sent from Europe at less than 1/3rd the price, yet it was made in the USA then sent overseas. Because there are no laws protecting the medicine manufacturers here from "jacking up" the prices, instead overseas they can bargain for better prices from these crooks. The USA pays high medicine prices for people and animals purely to fund pharmecuetical company employees expensive trips all over the world, for "so called business meetings", these trips are vacations for the most part. I know a few people who benefit from these companies as employees.
I bought praziquantel for a dog once, it took half a bottle to make one treatment for $20, to use panacure to treat the same tapeworm in the same dog I would have needed 4 boxes at $24 a box for one complete treatment. The vet on the other hand would be alot more expensive.
Ive compared reptile vet visits over the years to dog vet visits, the reptiles have always cost far less for far more complicated visits, and more extensive treatments.
I know a few pet owners that do their own shots because 7 dogs can be treated for $10, the rest of the meds are wasted, but the vet charges an average out the door price of $45 or more for the same shot for one dog with all of the other charges tacked on.

Since you aren't practicing in the US, were you educated in the US? I know vets from other countries often have their education subsidized/paid for by the government to encourage people to go into those particular fields. I graduated from Kansas State University and graduated with almost $145,000 in student loans. With as much schooling as a human doctor, don't I have the right as a "real" doctor and a business owner to make a living? I'll add, it should NEVER be done at the expense of ripping off the client or to the detriment of the patient. Waiting for the firing squads to begin

Terry

To clarify, the last post was to Jasper the vet from the Netherlands. I'm not trying to be offensive, just trying to clarify some of the differences between vet med in the US vs. other parts of the world. Fire away

Terry

Hi,

I won't shoot you, don't worry....
I got my education here in the Netherlands, and no I don't have a 145.000 dollar loan. BUT, the taxes we pay here are much higher and should easilly make up for that in the long run.
And I just built my own practice and I can tell you if you do that the 145K is pocket change!
I know I may be too cheap with my reptile medicine, 99% of my income is generated by dogs, cats and horses.
But charging 300 dollar for something worth 3 dollar or less is a crime. If she only did a direct faecal, which if think she did 110 dollar is way to much too, it takes me about 5-10 minutes to do one. so that would be about 700 dollars a hour, a bit much don't you think?
Look at it this way: this guy is never ever going to get his animals checked out again by a vet and so are 10 of his friends and a few of the people on this forum. So with that little scam the vet just lost 10-20 potential returning clients. So now the vet has less work, and a lot more reptiles are going to die that could be saved otherwise. she discrased (spelling?) the whole profession with this joke. I can't blame people thinking we only care about money if tou hear stories like this.
I also give my clients a lot of husbandry tips to prevent problems in the future, I doubt she did.

So I can understand it if you want more money for your services, but 40 dollars for a faecal and 15 dollars for the meds should be the max in my opinion. If she also looked at the animal there should be an added consult fee of course.

Jasper

I agree with you 100%. I just get frustrated that people seem to think that just because you're a vet and you love animals that you should give away your services or do them for next to nothing. The prices have to be fair and reasonable, the diagnosis and treatments appropriate and, most of all, you should do no harm to the patient or the client for that matter
Best of luck to you with your new practice. Keep on learning and educating your clients. They will love and appreciate you for it.
Best regards,
Terry

Sorry for the delayed response.

I really appreciate everyone giving their insight on my thread.

I have completed the first week of "deworming meds" for my sav. After one week I was supposed to bring him back to the vet to do another fecal and here is what happened.

The vet is about 1 hour away from me and I couldn't make it out last Sunday so I called to reschedule. I was able to speak to the vet tech (who was in touch and getting info from the vet) who explained to me that if they found worms or "not" in the fecal exam they still would make me give him another round of Panacur and Flagyl.

I am happy I didn't go since the result/outcome would have been the same and thank God I have just about enough meds to get him through another 5 days. It would have costed me another $110 or so.

What I have noticed after the first week...2 days later tape worms were still being passed.

As stated before I tossed and cleaned everything in the cage. Got rid of the earth, bleached and used Nolvasen on everything.

I only feed him cooked turkey, F/T rats/mice and some times cooked eggs for a treat. (I did give raw fresh turkey meat in the past but not for about 6 months or so)

Now that I have been administering the meds he has almost completely stopped eating. He has very good weight so I am not overly concerned (for now) but am not happy that he was seemingly fine before (minus the worms in his stool) and now he has really no appetite.

I have added an additional ceramic heat light which keeps him about 100 + degrees. I have a total of 250 watts right over him (about 10 inches for the heat) I also put a hiding spot underneath one of the lamps which enhances the temps to about 120+F. I am having a hard time getting the hot spot up to 150F since I am worried about putting the ceramic heat lights to close.

He has a large (2 1/2' x 14" water container) and a cage that is about 5x5. I am only using newpaper for now, but had 8" of earth (which he never dug in)

I have read all the posts and am totally confused since everyone has a different opinion. Is it my husbandry that is the problem, should I be deworming him?

I really appreciate all of the help and have been taking the vets advice.

I see that some posts say that stress could cause the host to get over filled with worms but I don’t think that is the case. He only comes out to feed, usually runs out and waits for me to feed him. He has grown so fast and the vet said he is not overweight and besides the worms is 100%. Heart rate was normal, feeding great (before the meds) got bathed once per week and has a large enough enclosure.

I know my temps can be higher and they were when I had the earth in the cage...that is what I am working on (so far I added another 150 watt ceramic heater)

Doing whatever I can to take care of my Sav. As you prob noticed I don’t have a lot of experience with Monitors (have and still breed snakes, more my specialty)

Thank you again and will keep everyone posted.

Thank you,

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Eric

im a vet tech and have been into reptils as long as i can remember my .02 cents...
im not sure how the meds ended up costing so much, they shouldent have, on the other hand ive seen some counterfit, watered down or otherwise bad crap sold online...
as far as the 110$ office visit, as much as i wish good exotic vets could be cheeper, they shouldent have to be, on top of the cost of vet school exotic vets have put in SO MUCH extra time to get good with exotics because they dont get it in school, most of the vets i work will tell you outright i know way more about reptiles then they do. its also hard to find techs who will help with exotics, ill admit im not good with pocket pets, i send another tech in the rooms with them, but i can also say out of 6 tech @ my clinic im the only one with lots of reptiles, and there is only one other who will help me with reptiles, as illegal as it is when i need rads (x-rays) on any of my "kids" my husband comes with me to shoot them.
sorry it cost you so much, and i wont get into husbandry or the /- of deworming cuz everyone has an opinion there...
glad to know your baby is doing well!!
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hanging out under heat lights burns up my brain cells!!