Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Perlite vs. Vermiculite? Does it really matter? Are there pros and cons to each? Opinions please! Thanks
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Cheers!
• Chelsea Lynn Gardiner
(and Frank M. Wood)

Why choose? I use both; 2:1 vermiculite to perlite.
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www.strictlyballs.ca

I have never understood that, why use a mix? What does it accomplish?

Genuine question.
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Well, aside from the fact that people just like to tinker, some people say the vermiculite allows them to visually monitor the amount of moisture in the medium, while the added perlite allows water to drain away from the surface a little better (thus keeping the eggs from getting too wet).

I don't really get it either. I place a piece of light diffuser (plastic grid) over the top of the incubation medium and forget about them for 50 days....never have to worry about it being too wet because the eggs don't touch the medium.

>>I have never understood that, why use a mix? What does it accomplish?
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>>Genuine question.
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>>robyn@proexotics.com
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>>Pro Exotics Reptiles
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Anthony Caponetto
www.ACreptiles.com
www.Ciliatus.com

Kinda like I don't understand why more people don't just use the lighting grid like your talking about without ANY substrate under the grid, water that is 1/2" or 3/4" deep will give you ALL the humidity you need and as long as you have them above the water far enough with a few layers of grid you don't have to worry about them getting to wet either. I myself hate substrate too much to go wrong I think. Water provides ALL the humidity I need so why mess with any subtrate if you don't need to?

Anthony McCain

The only reason I use a substrate is to keep the water from splashing onto the eggs if/when the box is moved. I'm a clutz, so things (like the incubator) tend to get bumped into from time to time.

I doubt it's necessary, but I mix the perlite into a thick slush...probably ten times the amount of water you'd use normally. It works great for everything I've tried except Woma eggs (too wet for those).

>>Kinda like I don't understand why more people don't just use the lighting grid like your talking about without ANY substrate under the grid, water that is 1/2" or 3/4" deep will give you ALL the humidity you need and as long as you have them above the water far enough with a few layers of grid you don't have to worry about them getting to wet either. I myself hate substrate too much to go wrong I think. Water provides ALL the humidity I need so why mess with any subtrate if you don't need to?
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>>Anthony McCain
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Anthony Caponetto
www.ACreptiles.com
www.Ciliatus.com

Robyn; legitimate question I suppose, I guess the reason I use it is because when I first started breeding, I read a whole bunch of stuff and spoke with some big breeders in my area and on forums and they were all using the perlite/vermiculite mix (ala the Sutherlands video at the time) so I figured I would too. Just never really questioned it. It's been working for 8 years now, so I'm not about to mess with something that works. It is so rare that we find something that works 100% of the time, I refuse to look a gift horse in the mouth so to speak.
I can tell you why I don't just use the water alone method or lighting grate on top of medium though; Water alone bothers me for the sole purpose of my clutziness and drowning the babies. I prefer a solid medium to a liquid one. As for the grate, I tried it the first year and found that babies if not caught RIGHT outta the egg, will get squirmy and end up stuck in the grate causing me a great deal of stress trying to get them out of to wait them out.
This hobby is all about trial and error to find what works for you, and I did.
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www.strictlyballs.ca

sometimes you cannot get good big particulate vermiculite...it's the really fine stuff...perlite will help make it better...by adding bigger particles....

I have used the fine vermic for decade...plus...mixed a few times and tried just perlite....

last year I finally found bigger vermic...so it's good to go...

also....when I bought perlite...I just went to masonry supply store and got a bag of "block fill" ....really...big..bag...so it helps to get rid of it......still have half a bag......big...bag....

LOL
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..J Yohe ....

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Well I can't find perlite locally anymore except for the miracle-gro brand which has added fertilizer. And I don't really want my eggs on that so I use vermiculite now. Either way my ball eggs will be on plastic eggcrate set on top of the medium so it really doesn't matter much.

Hi Chelsea,

You might try this method (pictured)

The plastic grid is actually light diffuser from the hardware store...the stuff they use with the fluorescent light fixtures in drop ceilings.

This way, you don't have to worry about being too wet...just put a liberal amount of water in the mix and you'll be good to go.

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Anthony Caponetto
www.ACreptiles.com
www.Ciliatus.com

Chelsea, if ever their was a topic where the correct answer was, "Whatever works best for you." this would be it.

I personally prefer employing the egg-crate method, simply because it is nearly foolproof.

Any substrate can be used with this method and it is nearly impossible to add "too much" water to the mix. However, not adding enough water can (and will) result in dehydrated eggs, but this is true no matter which method you decide upon.

By the way, egg-crate is generally between $8 and $11 at Lowe's.. I've had difficulty locating it at some of the other home improvement stores

When selecting a substrate for the egg-crate method there are a few key qualities most people look for:

1. The substrate (or mix of substrates) should have a decent water retention ratio. Simply put, you want something that will hold enough water to actually be beneficial to the incubation process.

2. The substrate should be free of contaminants or additives. This means you will want to select something that has not been chemically treated (if it is a "natural" substrate it should not employ pesticides as a method of "sterilization" ) nor should it have added fertilizers or herbicides. Many of the potting soils and substrates you will find in the gardening section of whichever store you prefer will have either fertilizers or herbicides or both. If the product has been heat treated to remove microbes and pests (along with their eggs and spores) it should be safe to use as long as this is the only treatment method used.

3. The substrate should also be resistant to mold, mildew and bacterial blooms. Mold spores and bacteria are everywhere and it would be nearly impossible to remove all of these "contaminants" from a substrate for most people. However, if there is a question about whether the substrate is harboring an unfavorable amount of either spores or bacterium you can either heat treat the substrate yourself (250 degrees F in the oven for 1/2 hour should do the trick) or you can select a different medium.

For all of the reasons outlined above either perlite or vermiculite (or any mixture of the two you feel comfortable with) are excellent choices as an incubation medium.

To help prevent mold and other unfavorable microbes from growing in my egg containers during incubation (remember we are providing almost PERFECT conditions for many molds and bacterium species to thrive: a stable damp, warm, dark environment) I always clean out my egg tubs, egg crate, the last 18" of my thermostat and humidity probes and the inside surface of my incubator with a bleach and water mixture as part of my incubator setup process each season.

I also use Methylene Blue (which can be found in the fish and aquarium sections of your local pet store) when mixing my substrate. Simply follow the directions on the bottle for the number of drops to add to your water before mixing the water into your medium. Methylene Blue is an anti-fungal used in aquariums and is very safe to use. This way not only have I eliminated most of the microbes present in the incubator and my supplies, but I have also employed some preventative measures to keep mold off of my eggs. Most of the mold, fungus and mildew that people have on their eggs is introduced at some point during the incubation process. The surface of the eggs are essentially sterile to anything that could harm them when they are laid... it is from the environment that most, if not all, of the various microbes come from that cause egg deterioration.

The egg-crate method allows you to use any medium you feel comfortable with and you can even over water it since there is no risk the eggs will drown. After obtaining your egg-crate simply cut it to fit within your egg boxes. I then add 2-3 inches of my (sloppy and extremely wet) substrate to the egg box. Place the egg-crate on the substrate and press it slightly in so that it will stay in place, but not so deeply that the substrate is level with the top of the egg-crate.

The only downfall to this method I have experienced is when the eggs are not bound together. I have one female that for some odd reason does not seem to have clutches that actually bind together after she lays... they are always fertile, just loose and "roly-poly". I solved the risk of the eggs rolling around by cutting small pieces of egg-crate that I can wedge on either side of the loose eggs like Legos.

If you notice the humidity dropping in your tubs you can simply pour a little water slowly into one of the corners of the tub. Since you don't have to worry about over-watering all of the measuring and guess work (along with the worry) has been removed from the process. You will want to be sure that you don't add so much water that the substrate turns to mush and the egg-crate is at risk for sinking... but this should not be a concern if you are paying attention to what you are doing.

I'm sure a lot of this information was redundant for a lot of the people that will read this, but we all know that every year at about this time the forum has many of these types of questions posted. Hopefully, somewhere within this post, someone will find a pointer or two that helps them out. For those of you that already knew this stuff... sorry to bore you with repetition, but I figure it's better to be too informed than it is to be left guessing.

perlite didn't do it for me...vermic does....and I might even mix the 2 together.......works also....especially if you have the really fine particled vermic....
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water just went right down through the perlite I thought...didn't hold it...
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..J Yohe ....

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I have used vermiculite mixed with perlite for more than 15 years. To me, it just seems more natural for hatchlings to crawl out of an egg onto an organic substance as opposed to a hard plastic grate material.

I use the Sutherlands "formula" for mixing vermiculite, perlite and water. I mix up a big batch and keep it in the incubator at the 89 degree temp until eggs are laid. As it is needed it is transferred to the egg box for the just-layed eggs. Works perfectly for me!

Susan
SSNAKES Reptiles

>>perlite didn't do it for me...vermic does...
>>water just went right down through the perlite I thought...didn't hold it...
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>>..J Yohe ....
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Exactly.it isn't supposed to hold the water like vermiculite does.It's supposed to float...If it does absorb water then it is time to get some new perlite.

Without the eggcrate plain perlite is just plain worthless as a substrate.

...how many ball pythons actually bury their eggs in the wild? LOL

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Charles Glaspie
http://www.myspace.com/coldthumb

balls don't bury the eggs yet they all lay them underground in a dirt hole that has good humidity and a ball mother or four laying on top of them......probably urinating all over the place too......maybe a few males in there as well....

.....I know...you know....

....laying eggs on top of egg crate didn't work in a Hovabator.....holes in top remember that.....

......HovaBators..work better with deeper bottom and 4 inches of vermic and half bury the eggs...at 90 degrees....and I put clutches all touching each other even.....just like jam 4 or 5 clutches in there.......I don't seperate eggs......

.balls hatch all kinds of ways......we that do it know that.....they can take alot.....

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..J Yohe ....

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My only real point was that vermiculite can also be just as usless,if you are using the grate..Perlite allows the grate to float on top like snowshoe for the no substrate method..Whereas verm does not have the same "dry on top,wet on bottom" quality..see what i mean?

...and that it is possible to mimic that "hole" they are all laying in the wild,without burying them in a substrate(since the no-sub method requires the air-tight boxes).
In which case,yeah the no sub method is useless to anyone using a hoverbator(Since it has holes in the top,and cannot possibly hold humidity in the air itself.)

apples n oranges? yep

While the subject is out there.I also think that urine you mentioned is a natural mold inhibitor..So i add some methylene blue to the water/perlite mix in my eggboxes to emulate that as well.
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Charles Glaspie
http://www.myspace.com/coldthumb

Bear Grylls would just Pee on them......

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no sub method works when done right....right....

......so far I didn't get the guy to build me a BIG incubator...
one reason....BIG...second...if all the eggs are in one bator...all die if you screw up....with 4 Hovabators...I screwed one up and killed all pastel and ghosts 2 years ago...and alot of other stuff and mixes....but still had 3 bators going and more eggs to come...so the one didn't kill me....just about 30 eggs? or more.....forget...lost about 50 that year I guess....
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..J Yohe ....

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i have always used vermiculite. it has always worked for me i just used the big stuff. i at one time used the perlite on other eggs and they went bad. this last year i could only get the little fine vermiculite so i mixed in a little perlite. i never used the water below i thought about it but the vermiculite seemed to work and i have had 100% hatch rate on ball eggs (i have only hatched around 40) but i have hatched alot of frilled,water dragon,bearded and other lizard eggs with great results.
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reed&Sunny at www.ReedsDragons.com & www.KillerEnclosures.com