Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey Tom,

I was wondering if you decided on keeping some Emerald Basins outdoors yet. I also live in south florida (Hallandale) and was thinking about keep some outdoors aswell. I really cant decide between Diamonds/Basins. Also, are you going to move your gravid Diamonds indoors before she lays or let her maturnity incubate them?

For right now I'm going to stick with just Diamond Pythons but I believe with a little modifications to the enclosure I could keep Basins outside. N. Emeralds would be more problamatic. With existing Diamonds if she lays eggs I'll pull them and incubate them myself...thanks...If you get a chance come down and check out what we're attempting to do. So far so good...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Have you ever considered Boelen's outside as well? Hint. Hint.

It may not get cold enough at night where Tom is to trigger breeding/ovulation in Boelens. I know people who are using air conditioners to bring the temps down. It gets very cold overnight at the altitudes they live in.
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1.0 Blackheaded pythons
2.4 Woma
3.2 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.3 Bloods
2.2 IJ Carpets
2.0 Coastal Carpets
1.3 Macklotts
1.2 F2 Carpondros
2.1 Jungle Carpet
1.0 Jag IJCP
0.1 Carpondro
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow boas
1.1 Striped Bolivian Boas
0.1 Madagascar Tree Boa
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

It might not be cool enough, but I have not heard of anyone else attempting it. Given that indoor captivity doesn't appear to be breaking any of the major hurdles with Boelen's, it would be interesting to see what the outcome is. The cooler temps may not be reachable, but the overall seasonal transition might make a difference. Again, just a thought.

The boelens thing has been tried outdoors. Pretty much everything has been tried . I think a big reason there were so many black python flops is because the quality of the animals to start with. Then throw in the you have get these snakes cold enough mentality and everyone in a hurry.........time and time again it's been proven that reptiles evolved to survive a variety of extremes actually only make use of moderate segment of these extremes . The rest of the time their just trying not to die.

I would also bet lung worms Pentastomida knock off a good number of imported blacks. I don't know what kind autopsies have been done but lots of doomed animals have these worms and look good 5 mins before they die. Very tough to detect and they cause a lot of those , my snake was doing great and then it rolled deals. Guys are starting off with better animals. Should mean better successes.

I had my emeralds outdoors they did alright but no better then they did in a plastic box. I also bred regular boas outside. For pythons I bred albino burms in a big outdoor cage. The snake laid and then the fire ants came and were all over everything. The snake wasn't bothered and the ants just ate up all the goo and split. I left her out there until a few days before the eggs were due then I pulled them. It worked ok.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

A number of people have gotten them to breed, a number have gotten them to lay. Very few have gotten eggs to hatch. I think Marc Spadaro has had more experience than most with them, and has actually been to the area and obseved them in their natural environment.
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1.0 Blackheaded pythons
2.4 Woma
3.2 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.3 Bloods
2.2 IJ Carpets
2.0 Coastal Carpets
1.3 Macklotts
1.2 F2 Carpondros
2.1 Jungle Carpet
1.0 Jag IJCP
0.1 Carpondro
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow boas
1.1 Striped Bolivian Boas
0.1 Madagascar Tree Boa
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

Paul Miles, Frank Memmo , actually bred them the Barkers , Doug Price , Kamerans guy hatched them . SD Zoo I think twice .Off the top of my head. I don't follow them anymore. A handful more or less. A lot more in the forever freezer. Most of the breeding's have been pretty recent . Better animals coming in.

The original late 80`s early nighties wave , terrible. The early 2000`s equally as bad. I wouldn't be surprised if for every clutch produced so far 25 adults died. Some animals produce one clutch then kick. Poor. Im not saying it's easy but the game plan might need some re-tooling.

Hank Molt brought the first one in around 74 maybe. It was a solid animal to start. I think Hank wanted $700.00 .It was long ago . I remember that snake lived a very long time. 15 years ? Im pretty sure Dave barker ended up with it. Might have even bred it. Seeing how a snake lives in it's native environment is very overrated in terms of trying to reproduce that environment under captive conditions.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

Hank seems to actually have imported them in the 70's. There's mention in Karl Heinz-Switack's book (sp?) about them being held for Hank by some people there.

I think the new babies being imported as hatchlings are helping.
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1.0 Blackheaded pythons
2.4 Woma
3.2 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.3 Bloods
2.2 IJ Carpets
2.0 Coastal Carpets
1.3 Macklotts
1.2 F2 Carpondros
2.1 Jungle Carpet
1.0 Jag IJCP
0.1 Carpondro
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow boas
1.1 Striped Bolivian Boas
0.1 Madagascar Tree Boa
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

"Seeing how a snake lives in it's native environment is very overrated in terms of trying to reproduce that environment under captive conditions. "

Actually, in this case, I think it's underrated. Too many nuances come into play with this species. If it was easy to do, more than the handfull of people you mention would have done it. Temps, rainfall, and the location of their "burrows" have a lot to do with it. Just my opinion, of course
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1.0 Blackheaded pythons
2.4 Woma
3.2 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.3 Bloods
2.2 IJ Carpets
2.0 Coastal Carpets
1.3 Macklotts
1.2 F2 Carpondros
2.1 Jungle Carpet
1.0 Jag IJCP
0.1 Carpondro
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow boas
1.1 Striped Bolivian Boas
0.1 Madagascar Tree Boa
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

I think observing, even studying these things in their native enviroment is extremely important in understanding the bio-niche the animal prefers in situ. I agree 100% in the importance of this and have spent a lifetime doing just that....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I didn't mean studying Boelens Pythons but all herps. One of the biggest reasons I've been successful in breeding such a wide variety of herps is because I've always tried to look for herps interesting to me all over the world. Once there I tried to learn as much as I could about them in any way possible...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

" Temps, rainfall, and the location of their "burrows" have a lot to do with it. Just my opinion, of course "

I was definitely to general Its important to understand the basic parameters of the animals natural life. Then try to work around that . How important depends .No matter you can only reproduce a narrow portion of this environment. Kind of. Play with the temps humidity. Lighting.

I was looking at Spateros page today very detailed husbandry. 14 yrs exp. went to the mountains , groups both CB and WC . Offspring 0 .

Paul Miles none of the above tried once hatched out 5. A good friend of mine imported a typically skinny group . In his own words " I take care of them like I think pythons should be taken care of. " Animals looked and were doing great sold them to a world renowned python breeder. Started Chilling them mountain stuff. Shortly after Dirt nap. Bob Clark Pretty decent python guy mid eighty's attempt ......... no, I could go on .

I don't feel it's a lack of natural history knowledge it's a lack of founder animals. Many mountain snakes don't travel well ...Mandarins rats , Hundred flower , Feas vipers. Nothing easy about any of these. Somebody has a little success everyone try's to imitate that and disregards the multitude of failures involving the same strategies. Could be the right strategy just not the right animals .

I don't think boelens are any tougher to work with then Mandarin rats . Get a hundred import mandarins and a hundred boelens and you'll get the same result. Completely sucks. By virtue of numbers and price enough people were able to work with enough Mandarins to get them over the CB hump. Boelens no numbers and to costly to think outside the box. Pressure.

I bet the guys that are slow raising females from hatchlings will have far better success. Not strategy the animals will be the difference.

Ernie Eison
Westwood Acres Reptile Farm Inc.

Try keeping Diamonds like regular Pythons and see what happens. Plenty of GREAT stock around but very seldom successfully bred. That's but one example. No problem keeping Diamonds just BIG problems reproducing them on a yearly basis...Think enviroment and not availability of good stock and you'll find your answer and it completely contradicts all that you have said....

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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

" Think enviroment and not availability of good stock and you'll find your answer and it completely contradicts all that you have said.... "

Not really it still starts with good animals before anything else. The main reason anybody breeds diamonds , first and foremost is because they have access to good animals from the start. With diamonds you get cb's. Then take it from there. Diamonds are a whole different deal.

It's the opposite of the boelens. Most started with problem WC animals . A lot of boelens guys get cops easy but no ovs . That's the real hold up. Its hard to get WC females to go there`s not many options . I don't know how many people have tried with captive raised females.

Lots of people breeding mandarins these days. Not like corns but still like a lot of colubids. It's not very specialized . Once people got a hold of the CB mandarins it got a whole lot easier. It might happen that way with Boelens.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

Still, no matter what, YOU CAN NOT KEEP THEM AS OTHER PYTHONS AND SUCCESSFULLY BREED THEM REPEATEDLY. This applies to Diamonds, Mandarin Rats, and I guarantee Boelens Pythons. What we are discussing is the importance of understanding the animal in the wild. You said it's overated which it clearly is NOT AND IF ANYTHING IS UNDERATED. That is the meat of this thread. Without understanding a Diamond Pythons need in situ no matter how many c.b. you had they still wouldn't successfully reproduce. It's a combination of good animals and an understanding of their bioniche that they are now bred with frequency. I guarantee NO ONE doing it repeatedly keeps them like other pythons.....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

By the way a good friend of mine produces Mandarin Rats out the ying-yang BUT he sure doesn't keep them like Corn Snakes. Just one more example...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

" By the way a good friend of mine produces Mandarin Rats out the ying-yang BUT he sure doesn't keep them like Corn Snakes. Just one more example... "
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Tom Crutchfield

" Breeding Mandarins is fairly basic, I approach them the same as I do for Corn Snakes. "

This is a direct word for word quote from a long time breeder. Who's done real good with them So.............

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

Your dancing around the FACT that no one breeds or keeps Mandarin Rats the SAME temp as Corns. The approach is the same but the temps etc are NOT and you know it. The reason for this is an understanding that wild mandarina do not live in areas with temps like Corn Snakes. Neither do Boelens live like Ball pythons and if your "approach" is the same you will not breed many. Your original declarations quite simply have little merit other than it's much easier with healthy c.b. snakes to begin with. The rest about learning about them in nature to be of little importance compared to the availability of good animals is simply wrong. Both factors are very important but one without the other is still not enough. It's only when you combine both factors that success is likely. Ernie you know this as you've been in this game a long time. Diamonds were kept for the last 20-30 years but until fairly recently breeding them was a hit and miss affair.
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Sorry Ernie, but I really couldn't understand most of what you said.
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1.0 Blackheaded pythons
2.4 Woma
3.2 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.3 Bloods
2.2 IJ Carpets
2.0 Coastal Carpets
1.3 Macklotts
1.2 F2 Carpondros
2.1 Jungle Carpet
1.0 Jag IJCP
0.1 Carpondro
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow boas
1.1 Striped Bolivian Boas
0.1 Madagascar Tree Boa
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

I'd love to!!! I'll give you a call sometime this week.
-Alan

I'll look forward to it...thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com