Reptile & Amphibian Forums

im sure this subject has been covered before but does anybody have pictures or links on how to home make an incubator?

Get a good temp gun and you might not need to construct anything. I incubated my eggs last year on top of my water heater. The temps stayed a constant 82 and the eggs hatched in 43 days. (very fast for milk snake eggs) But all hatched and were healthy and big. I have a Hova-bater incubator from tractor supply that cost 43 dollars and many swear by them. (used for chicken and quail eggs) Some have horror stories about them. I have not used it yet. You may also want to check the shelf temps in closets or your snake room and see if the temps stay constant between 79 and 85 degrees, if so you can just put them on a shelf.

The snake room IS a incubator.Why make it so complicated?
I keep my eggs in the snake room till the heat tape gets turned off then I put them in the kitchen above the cabinets.If temps go too hight they go back to the basement snake room.Eggs can live at 60 degrees but they can't live much over 87.Heat is enemy here.That and low moisture.

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"Wake me when its April"

Doug L

>>im sure this subject has been covered before but does anybody have pictures or links on how to home make an incubator?

An old fridge is your best bet and if you look long enough its not hard to find them for free/next to nothing. Here is my layout of my current incubator that handles kings, milks, boas and python eggs.

Something that isn't listed on this drawling is water bottles to keep the temnps stable I use water bottles as a thermal mass at the bottom on the fridge along with a squirt bottle in case the tubs look a little dry.

You don't need to use flexwatt, a RHP or UTH should work as well, and you also don't need to go with a higher end proportional thermostat but I don't like to take any chances and its easier for me.

I also agree a temp gun is a must have!!

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Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."

Noob question: Whats a flexwatt?

flexwatt is heat tape.It come in different widths and when plugged into 120 house current will heatup to about 80 85 deg,Its used to heat the tanks and tubs
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"Wake me when its April"

Doug L

.

I converted an anaerobic labratory incubator
to incubate my Green Tree Python eggs. I
ran heat cable on the bottom, both sides, and the back.
I wired in a CPU fan to help circulate the air and
keep temps even from top to the bottom shelf. I put
a 1.5" plumbing test plug in an opening in the side.
I can control the intake of fresh air by opening or
closeing the plug. This along with the CPU fan, helps
control mold as well. I siliconed in a piece of plexiglass over the opening on the right door, so that i can look at the eggs, without loosing heat through an open door. I think this is a bit much for Kingsnake eggs, and Colubrids in general. I usually keep my King and Milksnake eggs in moist spagnum moss on an unheated shelf in my herp room. The temps vary between 70-73, and the eggs do just fine. Here's a little tip as well. Many Mountain Kings and Milks actually hatch out with brighter reds and less black if incubate at cooler temps.
I have also noticed longer hatch times, but larger babies
by using room temps as well. The longer hatch times are worth
the wait for larger, brighter hatchlings.

-Phil
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Work is the curse of
the drinking class!

you forgot to mention that thats all stainless steel
very nice.
btw larger babies also are quicker to take pinkies
nice post
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"Wake me when its April"

Doug L

Hey Phil, just out of curiousity, what is the hatch time for your king and milk eggs at those temps? (70-73)

I've had hatch dates from 60-90 days.
-Phil
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Work is the curse of
the drinking class!

>>>Here's a little tip as well. Many Mountain Kings and Milks actually hatch out with brighter reds and less black if incubate at cooler temps.

this is no tip in fact its complete BS. lower temps will give you bigger babies, it will not effect color at all.
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

With some species higher incu-temps result in brighter babies....this is verified in leopard geckos to be true.

And yes, I agree, lower temps will yield bigger babies, because they will have already absorbed most, if not all, of their yolk.
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1.0.0 Lampropeltis getula holbrooki
0.1.0 Lampropeltis getula californae
0.0.1 Lampropeltis getula nigra
1.0.0 Lampropeltis mexicana thayeri
2.3.0 Eublapharis macularius macularius
0.0.2 Rhacodactylus ciliatus
0.1.0 Gerrhosaurus major major

Thomas,
Have you tried it yourself? I have incubated
Annulata eggs, from the same parents, and same clutch, at 85
and 70. The 85 degree eggs were almost melanistic they were
so dark, yet the 70 degree eggs were bright reds with the black confined to the black bands. This has been mentioned in Brian Hubbs Mountain Kings pg.256 Mitch Mulks and Rick Staub have mentioned having the same results with their Mountain Kings.
I have also had personal communications with other breeders
that have had the same experience, i.e., Bob Macken, Jerry Kruse.
You might won't to back off the pannick button there Thomas.
-Phil
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Work is the curse of
the drinking class!

*
-----
Work is the curse of
the drinking class!

>>>Thomas,
Have you tried it yourself?

why yes i have phil, ive tried all manner of ways over the years.

>>>I have incubated
Annulata eggs, from the same parents, and same clutch, at 85
and 70.

WOW 2 clutches huh? or is it just 1 clutch you divided either way thats an awful small base?huh?

>>>The 85 degree eggs were almost melanistic they were
so dark, yet the 70 degree eggs were bright reds with the black confined to the black bands.

i would imagine your 85batch had some kinkers in there too huh? annulata dont tip out like other triangulum, crossovers can be common. id say repeat that proccess a few more times (like100 or more) then come tell the forum lower temps will give cleaner looking babies. lower temps are better but its not that easy to have clean bright colors. that would be genetic and have absolutely nothing to do with incu temps.

>>>This has been mentioned in Brian Hubbs Mountain Kings pg.256 Mitch Mulks and Rick Staub have mentioned having the same results with their Mountain Kings.

WOW lets throw names around to justify our own opinion, from a hands on example of 2 WHOLE clutches, roflmao...

>>>I have also had personal communications with other breeders
that have had the same experience, i.e., Bob Macken, Jerry Kruse.
You might won't to back off the pannick button there Thomas.
-Phil

no pannick button here phil and im glad you feel like you do, i will say i dont agree and that i have hatched a few more than 2 clutches over my 25years of keeping and breeding lampropeltis, cooler is better for incu, i am glad you have grasped that phil. but cooler temps do not make reds brighter and reduce black tipping or crossovers, that my friend is at best wishful thinking and worst an outright LIE.
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Okay Thomas! So now your calling me a lier!
Nice, real nice Thomas! First off, I am not the only
person that has observed this. You believe, what you want.
I love how you have jumped on the Frank Retes bandwagon, yet
you contradict what Frank has said about keeping our snakes
in the "sweater box" method. Why don't you go change your Capri-Sun boxes and aspen bedding. How do you explain away the observations of several breeders Thomas? If you have a realistic
and well thought out theory, than I'm all ears, but I do not appreciate being called a lier. These are the effects of varied
incubation temps that I have observed with Triangulum, Zonata, and Pyromelana. Nothing more and nothing less, and I'm not the
only person that has experienced this. Bob Macken, via pers. comm., explained to me that he had incubated Annulata at 85
that were almost melanistic. When they reached maturity,
were bred together, and incubated at 75, and produced normal
looking offspring. The clutches that were incubated at 85,
also produced melanistic offspring. Now, being curious, and not
completely closed minded, I tried this experiment myself. What do you know, I had the same results. None of the eggs incubated at 85 produced kinked offspring, but two out of four eggs did not hatch. Okay, I did lose some of my eggs, but Bob has not had this problem, and there are other variables involved. The fact is this has produced some vary interesting results. On the other hand the cooler eggs had no fatalities, and produced offspring
with cleaner reds. Can you explain this away Thomas? I'm all ears!
-Phil
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Work is the curse of
the drinking class!

I have read many articles about the effects of temperature on the banding, color, and size of hatchlings. I am with Phil on this one.

good for you joe.

,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I have another question for you Thomas.
Why do F1 and F2 snakes turn out much cleaner, "brighter"
than their founding stock? I have seen this with many species.
Take Lampropeltis triangulum elapsoides for example.
I have allowed them to breed. Are you happy now Frank?
And held back the whole clutch of 1.1 F1s, that are much brighter
than the founding stock. Then "allowed" them to breed, and once again they produced offspring that were much brighter than the founding stock. There is much more than genetics going on here Thomas. Maybe it's incubation temps, maybe UV exposure?
I have observed this for several generations, and others have as well. I'm all ears Thomas?
-Phil
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Work is the curse of
the drinking class!

Same thing happens with Pyros. I've always wondered why the F1's are always so much cleaner and more attractive than the founding stock.

I am not 100% sure that it's lower temperatures, maybe it has something to do with constant incubator temps versus the fluctuating temps they would experience in the wild - I don't know, but I know there's something there...
-----
Diego

SWCHR

I have a theory that UV light exsposure may have something to do with it as well. Don't get me wrong though, it's just a theory.
-Phil
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Work is the curse of
the drinking class!

Do you mean exposure to the parents or the eggs?
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Diego

SWCHR

I mean hatchlings exposure to UV after hatching.
As they mature in the field, they are exposed to more UV and darken as they mature. In captivity, they may stay lighter,
due to a lack of UV exposure through out their lives? Just
a theory.
-Phil
-----
Work is the curse of
the drinking class!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16555187
So you are saying that color is solely dependent
on genetics?
-Phil
-----
Work is the curse of
the drinking class!

Here's another article relating incubation temps with a turtle
color/phenotype.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T4D-4K1H7K0-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=2c6c73dd710826eb265feb0e09d25913
-Phil
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Work is the curse of
the drinking class!

*
-----
Work is the curse of
the drinking class!

This was taken from a 2000 article:
Effect of Incubation Temprature on Morphology, Growth, and Survival of Juvenile Sceloporus undulatus
By Robin M. Andrews, Tom Mathies, and Daniel A. Warner

Incubation temperature affects a wide range of phenotypic traits of hatchling reptiles. The main objective of this research was to determine if such phenotypic traits persist long enough in the field to have an effect on fitness. Eggs of Sceloporus undulatus lizards were incubated at six temperature regimes, five constant and one fluctuating, with means ranging from 23-33 C. Hatchlings were measured and their subsequent morphology, growth, and survival were monitored for 7-9 months, one to two months before individuals reached adult size. Phenotypic traits of lizards that hatched at the field site were used for comparative purposes. Morphological traits persisted for 7-9 mo. In contrast, growth rates did not differ among incubation temperature treatments after individuals were released in the field. Overall, 29 (27%) of 107 individuals that were released survived to the spring following hatching, and individuals from eggs incubated at the lowest temperature had higher survival than individuals from all other groups. The phenotypes of lizards incubated at intermediate temperatures tended to be most similar to those of field hatched lizards. We rejected two predictions about phenotypic responses to incubation temperature. The first prediction was that extreme incubation temperatures would be associated with the most deviant phenotypes. Observed phenotypic responses to temperature were either linear or, only one extreme temperature produced a deviant phenotype. The second prediction was that hatchlings incubated at warm temperatures and that hatched early in the season would have higher survival in general and higher overwinter survival in particular than hatchlings incubated at cool temperatures and that hatched later in the season. The reverse was true; observed survival was greatest for hatchlings from the coolest incubation treatment that hatched last.

Ther's a lot more to incubation temps than you think Thomas.
-Phil
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Work is the curse of
the drinking class!

calm down phil lifes to short.
first:
i have not called you a LIAR. i dont have to look at your sample 1 or 2 clutches, ive hatched 100's over 25 years and my opinion wich im allowed to state phil is: INCU TEMP.DOES NOT EFFECT COLOR IN KINGS/MILKS. i could really care less what you or anyone else thinks about it so enough of the name dropping and links.

second: Frank Retes FR yes i am big fan of his i apprecieate and respect his opinion above just about anybody else when it comes to snakes. me keeping MY snakes on pine and using caprisun juice boxes as hides is the way I maintain my snakes yes its marginal for the most part but effective and allows me to acheive my goal. but i do have my pet snakes in large temp.gradient natural type setups with tips from FR like retes stacks etc. whats wrong with that?
now with all that said phil i say go ahead beleive what you wanna beleive, a man only sees what he wants to see anyway and if you see them cleaner and brighter from cooler incu. temps then go for it, heck from the sound of it your F2 scarlets should glow neon red all from cooler temps... ive had ALL types of mediums,temps,and humidity variations and i havnt seen it bigger yeah cooler is better but NOT for color.
,,,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

...not to play devil's advocate, but are you speaking for Hondurans only, or do you have other tri-color experience to draw your conclusions? Again, I don't want to stoke the flames here, but I am very curious about this subject.

Like I stated above, I've seen it happen with Pyros, but there were too many variables for me to attribute the phenotype variation to just one factor, such as lower temps.
-----
Diego

SWCHR

>>>there were too many variables for me to attribute the phenotype variation to just one factor, such as lower temps.

could not have said it better myself, i apply this to all of the lampropeltines ive worked with getula,triangulum,calligaster. i have never bred pyro or any mexicana,but i have most of the other above ssp. throughout the years and if it was as ez as lower incu.temps for brighter reds and cleaner bands everyone would have smokin hot colors and locales would mean nothing. color is genetic.
,,,pattern now thats another discussion... incu. temps and color implies eryphore/xanphore/melanin manipulation/mutation through temps!?!? seems a bit much... like oooh i want a hypo from these 2 dirty blazzee normal i know lower my incu temps,that will clean them up, im sorry true reccessive mutations like hypo cannot just be created through temp manipulation neitheir can melanistic or brighter at least imho. cooler temps are better higher temps can be deadly. stability and humidity is the most impt. factor.
,,,,,,,thomas
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Here's what I use

In the old days when I had more eggs i had a different setup.

These days with the down economy I give some eggs to the dog and some to the kingsnakes

How have the snakes in the wild done it for millions of years w/o a incubator?
Every year in this forum some guy always cooks his eggs in one of those.Last year some guy posts the question"How do I incubate my snake eggs? Should I buy a incubator?"
He got several great answers to his post but never read them.
Two days later he had another post.
"Can eggs withstand 100 degrees"
-----
"Wake me when its April"

Doug L

I have read some articles written by breeders that have been doing this for a LONG time and many of them just use shelves in the snake room after trying a lot of different methods. I might try the hova-bator and I might not. The water heater worked great last year and I should not try to fix what is not broken! By the way Doug, is the hammer is the photo used to open the eggs of the ones that are having trouble? Ha Ha.

How dare you lol. I love your original setup!

To the original poster: Joe makes sense here. If you just have a few eggs, you can sometimes find a place where temps are reasonable, like on top of a refridgerator for example.

You can incubate colubrid eggs in the high 70s just fine. They can experience a nightime drop just fine. If you stay within 70-82 deg from morning to night they are fine (probably a much wider range, but for a house, the 70-82 range is often achievable easily.)

Most important is that they are not too wet and not too dry. One method is an aquarium filled about 4 inches with water, a small aquarium heater submersed and set to keep the water 80 deg. Float the egg box on that, or place a brick in there to rest the box on. Cover the aquarium top. That keeps temps in the range and keeps humidity nice. For an egg box, one method is perlite on the bottom wet, then a layer of polyester batting on top of that, then eggs on the polyester. Eggs are dry but air in the box is humid. Or if the perlite layer is thick enough above the water line, eggs on the perlite and no batting. It all works.

Someone once posted pics of snakes eggs found in the field. Really cool find. He put a thermometer on them (nice idea!) and measured temps midday and in the morning. Saw temps like 90 during one day (it was a warm day), and I forgot the low but I think 70s. In any case, he checked back now and again until one day he found the empty shells of a hatched clutch, not really knowing what species exactly. Just to show you what is possible. High temps are likely survivable if they are for a limited time. What was fairly stable was humidity - the eggs were in a rotting log against the soil below, and the area was not wet but not dry and not exposed to airflow of any significant degree.
-----
Mark

god post mark thanks
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"Wake me when its April"

Doug L

>>Here's what I use
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>In the old days when I had more eggs i had a different setup.
>>
>>
>>These days with the down economy I give some eggs to the dog and some to the kingsnakes
>>
>>
>>
>>How have the snakes in the wild done it for millions of years w/o a incubator?
>>Every year in this forum some guy always cooks his eggs in one of those.Last year some guy posts the question"How do I incubate my snake eggs? Should I buy a incubator?"
>>He got several great answers to his post but never read them.
>>Two days later he had another post.
>>"Can eggs withstand 100 degrees"
>>-----
>>"Wake me when its April"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Doug L

I will bet my container costs less then yours as it was FREE!!

Define incubator and I think you will find what you are doing as minimalistic as it is, still is considered a incubator and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. HOWEVER;

Its interesting this idea of everyone's setup is the same, while I have a snake room its not heated nor is it cooled the temps change every day and for me since each one of my cages is setup for that particular species of snake the incubator will work in much the same way. From day to day my rooms throughout my house including my snake room will fluctuate from 5-15 degrees depending on how sunny it was that day and what the night time temps are, however my constant room is my basement which stays year round 48-55 degrees far to cool to hatch my eggs, thus I use a free incubator with tools that make sure nothing goes wrong, the incubator holds in the humidity and heat.

Speaking of this idea of snakes not using incubators that isn't true, King cobras will build nests and while it may not look like an incubator to us using a temp gun tells another story, it will also keep out the rain but holds in the humidity.

Once last thought snakes don't live is this constant unnatural temp gradient that "heating or cooling" a snake room provides, they seek out what meets there needs and its probably not a 80 degree room that doesn't change throughout the day or even night.. If I go outside and look for an eastern king I can bet the temps will greatly change from sunup to sun down my Snake room in a way mimics that. Not that I can mimic everything in nature my cages do have ranges from low 60s-90s depending on the year.

My example can be very cheap less then 50 bucks or lots more depending on the direction that you feel will yield the best results.
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Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."

thanks jason that was a good read.I like hearing what others think and what they do.BTW,when a snake drops her eggs under a tarp or in decayed material they is a natural heat source fron the sun or from the bacteria that rots out the organic matter, SO like you said about the cobra,snakes have their own incubators. cool post thanks
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"Wake me when its April"

Doug L

Eggs don't need incubators. They need the right reasonably constant temperature, humidity, and a little bit of air. However you want to give them those things is up to you. If your snake room is a reasonable temp then I would just put the egg box in a styrofoam box (to protect against rapid fluctuations) and leave it on a high shelf.

Kingsnake eggs are pretty forgiving. Because I breed some more tempermental species and some temperature dependent sex determined geckos I have 3 incubators at different temps always set up.

Real simple:

Get a large styrofoam box, a piece of flexwatt, and a thermostat and you are good to go. calibrate it before putting in the eggs. Open it every few days for a few seconds for air exchange.

I never use an incubator. I have a shelf in the closet where my central air unit is at. The temp stays from 77-80 in the closet year round. I put the eggs in a tupperware container with 1" holes drilled in the top and a fine screen hot-glued over the hole for circulation. I use vermiculite as a medium and the humidity and temp stay just right. Works for me every year. It just took a while to find the right closet when I moved into this house in 2001.
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Greg Jackson

well i dont have the luxury of a heated snake room, i live in an apartment and my rack is in my living room, im using an incubator to keep the eggs an a CONSTANT temperature, if you dont like my ideas or questions please simply do not respond but if you have useful information that you are willing to share please do and it is greatly appreciate, i bought a still air incubator today at the tractor supply nothing big just something small hopefully this will work for me because i am going to use it its just a stryo foam box with a thermostat in it. do i need to buy some small plastic boxes and put vermiculite in them and place the eggs in the box and then the box in the bator? or can i just put vermiculite in the incubator and call it good?

First off, do not get so defensive. People are just giving you suggestions and YOU can choose what you want to do. I am not for or against either method. I like to have options. You did not give any variables with your first question and therefore you got many different responses. Now that we know where your snakes are and that it might be hard to keep a more constant temp. it might make more sense to try an incubator. Do you have a temp gun though? This is a MUST for someone who keeps snakes.

those temp guns are so cool.What do they cost joe?

I would love to take one out to the field for temp data on snakes and the their hides.
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"Wake me when its April"

Doug L

I bought one from PE for like 35 bucks...

Doug, I got my temp gun at a show for like 25 or 30 dollars. Not the highest end model but it sure does work fine for what I need. I will bring it when we go to the field and we can record some data!

>>well i dont have the luxury of a heated snake room, i live in an apartment and my rack is in my living room, im using an incubator to keep the eggs an a CONSTANT temperature, if you dont like my ideas or questions please simply do not respond but if you have useful information that you are willing to share please do and it is greatly appreciate, i bought a still air incubator today at the tractor supply nothing big just something small hopefully this will work for me because i am going to use it its just a stryo foam box with a thermostat in it. do i need to buy some small plastic boxes and put vermiculite in them and place the eggs in the box and then the box in the bator? or can i just put vermiculite in the incubator and call it good?

I been using the styrofoam incubator set at 82 degrees for about 8 years now, in a 65-75 degree house with no problems
I put about a 1/2 inch of water in the bottom to keep humitity up, fill all empty rack space with your plastic boxes with vermiculite in them to keep your heat stable, and the heater won't cycle as much. I also cover my boxs with sran wrap and poke a few holes in it for added humitity. When eggs start to hatch,I remove the wrap, and cover the plastic box with a small piece of glass just to keep them secure in their boxes when your not there.
The only problem I see with these Incubator boxes is that you need to keep a eye on the eggs directly under the heat sorce, that they don't dry out.
Its what ever works for you and the climate your in.

Good luck, Bob

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R.Bichlers Colubrids
http://www.webspawner.com/users/rbichler/index.html

Bob.. Did those yellow eggs (top right) hatch out for you?? I am wondering because this pic looks like it was taken late in incubation due to some of the eggs denting in and other than the yellow color those eggs look ok to me..

Hope all is well.

~ Mike Russo

>>Bob.. Did those yellow eggs (top right) hatch out for you?? I am wondering because this pic looks like it was taken late in incubation due to some of the eggs denting in and other than the yellow color those eggs look ok to me..

Hi Mike, that picture was taken a few years back, and yes they all hatched except one. They were a aberant Albino Cal King. She layed another 3-4 eggs after I took that bunch of eggs from her from her, for a total of 15 eggs, which one did not hatch.

-Bob
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R.Bichlers Colubrids
http://www.webspawner.com/users/rbichler/index.html

that's a lot of eggs from that big girl!
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Todd Hughes

That's interesting Bob.. Does she always throw yellow eggs or was it just that one season?

Years ago I had a female that threw yellow eggs for me for 3 years straight, then i traded her away.. The first time i saw her yellow eggs I thought they were slugs, but they were clean, stuck together and dry and appeared to be good so i gave them a chance and they all hatched as well.

Does anyone have any theories on why some females throw yellow eggs?

~ Mike Russo

>>That's interesting Bob.. Does she always throw yellow eggs or was it just that one season?
>>
>>Years ago I had a female that threw yellow eggs for me for 3 years straight, then i traded her away.. The first time i saw her yellow eggs I thought they were slugs, but they were clean, stuck together and dry and appeared to be good so i gave them a chance and they all hatched as well.
>>
>>Does anyone have any theories on why some females throw yellow eggs?
>>
>>~ Mike Russo

The following year they were more white, the two boxes on the left,of the picture below were hers. but I belive she as had a few cluches that were not quite that dark shade of yellow color before. The dark yellow ones all candled good except one as I remember, and hatched fine.

--Bob

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R.Bichlers Colubrids
http://www.webspawner.com/users/rbichler/index.html