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Last year I said I was going to buy a Motley and for what ever reason I still have not. I believe I will buy one this year. I really like the Motleys and I also like the Super Motleys. There have been posts up here before about the Super Motleys and I now have a few more questions. I know that there are people out there who post on this board that have all of the answers to my questions and I hope that someone will step up and answer them, not just for my sake but for everyones sake.

A few weeks ago I was at the reptile show at the Tampa Fairgrounds and I was seriously considering buying a female Motley someone had on their table. I asked a lot of questions because he has had Super Motleys, Motleys, and produced them with success. After talking to him and getting some of the answers I got I am not sure I would ever buy a female Motley. He also said that he would never produce a Super Motley again.

WHY AREN'T THERE ANY PICTURES OF ADULT SUPER MOTLEYS ANYWHERE ON THE INTERNET ( OR AT LEAST NONE THAT I AM AWARE OF OR PEOPLE I HAVE ASKED)?

I was told that all Super Motley die usually within two years. I was told that Super Motleys have an unusual tongue flicker as well as they lay on their sides in an unusual way, and from what we all can see is the different shape of their head. I was told that Super Motleys eventually stop eating and end up with IBD like symptoms. I am not saying they have IBD, but similar behavior.

IF SUPER MOTLEYS ALL END UP DYING THEN WHY ARE PEOPLE TRYING TO PRODUCE THEM?

I know in the Ball Pythons there are lethel combinations.

IS IT POSSIBLE THE SUPER MOTLEYS ARE GENETICLY LETHAL?

DO YOU THINK THAT PEOPLE ARE NOT AWARE OF THE END RESULT OF A SUPER MOTLEY AND THAT IS WHY THEY ARE PRODUCING THEM?

BY PRODUCING A SUPER MOTLEY AREN'T YOU WASTING LIFE?

IF WHAT I HAVE BEEN TOLD ABOUT SUPER MOTLEYS IS TRUE DOESN'T EVERYONE THINK PEOPLE SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO KNOW?

IF IN FACT ALL SUPER MOTLEYS DIE AND PEOPLE ARE WELL AWARE OF THIS THEN AREN'T PEOPLE GOING TO WIND UP GETTING HURT?

Some people have paid a lot of money or made big trades for Super Motleys with the hopes of a big pay day when they produce.
But from what I have been told a Super Motley will not live long enough to produce. I know some people have posted on this board that Super Motleys are steril. I think common sence should tell us that if no one out there can show the world an adult Super Motley then there is a prety good reason for it.

HOW LONG HAVE SUPER MOTLEYS BEEN OUT?

HAVEN'T SUPER MOTLEYS BEEN OUT OVER FIVE OR MORE YEARS?

I apologize to everyone if it seems like I am running on here but I would like more answers before I get into some kind of a Motley breeding project. I think the answers to these questions will give me and everone a more educated decision before jumping into a new breeding project. I really like the Motleys and as they are now becoming more affordable I want to have one or more. I would really appreciate it if someone would step up and answer my questions. Everyone would benefit from it whether the answers are good or bad.

Thanks for listening.
Brian

That is simply not true. Not much more to say about it.

I believe that most of the Super Motleys that have been produced were the product of sibling breedings. I don't know why that is the case as with the many different lines, that certainly was not necessary. When breeding a co-dominant morph, there is absolutely no reason to to a sibling breeding. None.

Now, I know that several more recent breedings have been done where siblings were not used, and Supers were made. I do not know how those animals are doing. If I would have done one of those breedings myself, I probably would have already told people how those babies were doing. But then I am a big mouth. I think we likely will be hearing about those "Supers" soon. I hope so anyhow.

Since I have quite a few Motleys myself, I know I am looking forward to seeing a nice big robust "Super Motley"!
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Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site
The Boaphile Photo Gallery Link

Well Jeff, when it comes to boas I would say you are probably one of the most knowledgable people out there. Can you be more specific on your answers.

Are you saying that because they are inbred that they eventually die?

Have you heard these things to be true?

There are tons and tons of inbred boas out there that have lived full lives.

Why should the Super Motley be different if it's inbred?

Why is it that no one can show a pic of a 15 pound Super Motley?

I believe this is a very good topic and I hope all of these questions will be answered. And hopefully be people who have them and not someone who doesn't have a clue.

Thanks
Brian

I would be careful to not make any statements that sound more like insinuations than questions on a permanent written post without the either first hand knowledge, or the first hand testimony, from someone that knows the answers to those questions. I do not know those answers and do not in any way imply anything by not answering. I don't know, but if I did know, by way of my own experience, which I do not, I would say.
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Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site
The Boaphile Photo Gallery Link

Jeff, I was not insinuating anything. I apologize if you took it that way. I am only looking for answers. I am not looking to offend anyone in any way. There are people out there who have these answers and I would like to know the truth. I think everyone would like to know the truth.

So if I offended you I hope you will accept my apology.
Brian

You also have to take into consideration there is still alot of money to be made or lost on the shoulders of
this project as well as another well known project that produces "Supers"
So this might explain the procrastination or failure of certain individuals to disclose certain facts
until they are quite certain their results are consistent every time.

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

I am a big believer in letting people know whatever might be helpful for them to know about Boa husbandry/breeding.

Information that might help people breed their Boas more effectively and or understand what is going on is something that I have never hesitated in sharing.

Some people seem to be surprised for instance that breeding siblings is not a good idea. For instance. If you are planning on an Albino Boa project, I can tell you from experience, that the more distantly the animals you are breeding are related, the better. I guess in general that would be true of anything.

I wasn't offended. I guess I think questions could be asked in such a way as to not push the person who could answer the questions into a corner. I too would like to know more about breeding trials and the resulting offspring from Motley X Motley breedings. Information sharing is never a bad thing.
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Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site
The Boaphile Photo Gallery Link

When people don't talk about something, it's an insinuation in itself. I remember you bringing up Supers in the past Jeff, and those posts made some insinuations. If the breeders won't talk about it, someone has to bring it up. I could give first hand experience, and an HONEST opinion, but people don't listen because I'm not on the "big boy" list. Heck, I had someone tell me my animals weren't super motleys because they had seen pictures of Pete's and they looked different. I've seen someone asking about the speckled super and if it lived. Yes, he's still alive and doing well here where he was produced. In general I'd say supers have issues that go beyond inbreeding.

When people don't talk about something, it's an insinuation in itself. I remember you bringing up Supers in the past Jeff, and those posts made some insinuations. If the breeders won't talk about it, someone has to bring it up. I could give first hand experience, and an HONEST opinion, but people don't listen because I'm not on the "big boy" list. Heck, I had someone tell me my animals weren't super motleys because they had seen pictures of Pete's and they looked different. I've seen someone asking about the speckled super and if it lived. Yes, he's still alive and doing well here where he was produced. In general I'd say supers have issues that go beyond inbreeding.

I believe that in this case no news is bad news. There are several people who know the answer to every question that I asked. There are probably several reasons that the so called "BIG BOYS" don't want to make this information known to everyone. One reason is GREED. They know that Super Motleys would not be worth much of anything if it were known that they will most likely die. These people are getting big money or big trade deals for Super Motleys and in my opinion it only goes to show you that they are only in this for themselves. If the so called "BOG BOYS" openly admit there is a huge problem with the Super Motley it will likely make a lot of people angry, especially those who paid a lot or gave up a lot in some kind of a trade deal. This way they can say " I didn't know" so then they don't look so bad. It's the small guy who ultimatly winds up getting hurt. The majority of the people in this business/hobby are the small guy. Some people just don't care who ends up getting hurt. I was contacted through the Kingsnake email system by a Motly breeder and he sent me his phone number. I called him and he said that the Super Motleys do in fact die. He posts here all the time but doesn't seem to want to openly discuss this. Out of respect for him I have not said his name. I can only hope that he and others will come forward and talk openly about this situation. Maybe with a lot of out crossing there will be success but I believe that there is a genetic flaw when the Super form is produced and that gene or genetics will always be present. I don't believe inbreeding has anything to do with it. I happen to think that the Motley and Super Motley are beautiful snakes. I am planning on getting a Motley or two this year. I will never try for a Super Motley. I can understand the fact that people want to make money at this. I think everyone wants to make money at this. But if people are making money selling something that is geneticaly inferior or flawed and know it, then don't you people think that is wrong? I could never knowingly sell something that I knew was defective or had a good chance of dying. People need to wake up and smell the coffee. If the people with this knowledge won't openly discuss this then there is a defenate reason, or reasons. All of them are most likely not good reasons. There are many people that know those answers. Sorry to run on about this but people deserve to know.

Well the motleys are doing just great at the big size. Why wouldnt the supers? what makes the super gene different from the mot?

Because the supers are born looking dehydrated...slender skull structure, different feel, more slender build. The head thing was once defended as a color issue. The head is black, so it just "LOOKS" skinny. That is 100% BS, none of my argentines look like they have skinny heads. They generally tongue flick funny, have bug eyes to some degree, poor appetites, etc. What makes the difference? Don't know for sure, but I've seen my own in person, that I produced, and I've seen others in person and saw the same characteristics. Motleys are fine, even from the same litters, so who knows exactly what is going on, but something isn't lining up properly in the super form. If you think they're okay, buy em' up that's your call. But, the evidence is out there if you really look at them. The posted super in this thread has a goofy head on it. If you REALLY look at the pics people post, you can see the slender head in all of them. I can move the camera so the angle hides it, but it doesn't mean it's not there.

I am 99% sure that my posts about Colombian Super Motleys only asked to see pictures of them as larger animals. I did not say anything like asking if super motleys had a "fatal" flaw or anything like that. I asked several times over a few months and referred to the fact that I in fact had been asking for those pictures and that those pictures had not been posted. If that was insinuating, then I insinuated. But I think you would have to really be reading between the lines, hard, to say that I inferred that simply asking to see pictures of them. That's all. The fact is, the answers to your questions could be widely known already and should be. Not knowing just leaves people to their imaginations. Imaginations that perhaps makes "reading between the lines" seem more like an insinuation when it really is a search for the same answers you "brd" asked for, just in a more subtle way of asking.
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Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site
The Boaphile Photo Gallery Link

Jeff, it's not a big deal, and maybe having supers I didn't have to look hard to see the insinuations(real or perceived). Asking for pics wouldn't be, but I believe you also threw out comments in regards to how many there should be by now, how old, how come we don't see them, etc. I'm really not concerned about the topic, so don't think I'm on the attack. Just explaining how I viewed those threads. Someone needs to bring things to light!

I'm sure I did ask those questions. Your memory is correct. However, those questions did stop short of saying what was said earlier here. I think that someone who knows how they were doing or what they are doing now, should have been the one to give those details publicly. My posts opened the door for that discussion. That discussion should have been lead by the person with the most experience and the most informative answers. But it don't happen.

For instance, if there was an issue or problem with Pearlescent Boas, I would be the one to tell people about it, and I would. Bob Potts with the Aztec Boas has been forthright and honest about the Aztec Boas. In that case he is the founder of that project and he stepped up to the plate and told people the truth.

I guess it's really just a difference in the way the question is asked here and the way I did it suspecting what the answers were but not knowing. I'd rather leave it wide open to interpretation or allow for more "reading between the lines". However, I really didn't know for sure what anyone should read between the lines, until after I made those posts requesting those pics that never came.

It's a little like this: Say I have a brand new morph of Boa. I have the Tribal Boa. I don't know if it's genetic or not yet. Imagine I breed it and produce half a litter of Tribal Boas. Then 18 months later I breed a Tribal to a tribal and I just produce 75% Tribals and no Super. What do I do? Well I personally tell people myself. Some would let that stay secret as long as possible not negatively impact the sales of Tribal Boas. As the leader of that project, honesty would force me to tell people the truth. That's the difference between some people. If I know, by virtue of being the leader with the Tribals, and I know the truth, I would make sure people knew the truth.
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Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

Jeff,
When PBM made his post about accuasations all I did was copy and paste everything he wrote. I made a mistake because some of that I should have taken out. I may have missed some of your ealier posts about the Super Motley. When it comes to boas in general you are probably one of the most knowlagable people out there. I think people respect your opinion as well as look up to you. When it comes to the Super Motley you are right about the fact that these people who have produced them should be openly discussing this situation. They are not talking about it because they know that people are going beyond their means (not in all cases) to buy Motley and Super Motleys with the hopes of a big pay day. In my opinion these people who are well aware of the long term out come of a Super Motley are missleadind, misrepresenting, and suckering the public into buying or trading for them. There is the WOW factor. People see a Super Motley and go WOW, I gotta have one of those. They say to themselves, imagine the breeding and the babies I will get from that.

Jeff, in most cases you seem to be very open, and I think that is great. Someone needs to bring light on this subject--- PERIOD. I don't care who it is. This is something that a lot of people don't know. People need to be aware. I think the people who have this information are only being selfish and greedy.

Here is a thought. Often times we here about so and so buying a snake on line and they get it and it ends up being sick, now there is vet bills and lets just say it dies. When this happens they post there experience on the internet and everyone will say what a scum bag that seller was. Dumping an animal so they don't take the loss. I would rather eat a sick boa then dump it off on someone else. My name and reputation mean something to me, as I believe most people are that way, but clearly not all. When these Super Motley breeders are selling Super Motleys and they are very clear of the potential out come of that Super Motley, what does that say about their reputation????? They don't want to talk about it because then they will be openly admitting there is a huge problem with them. When people say that Super Motleys die and not one of the so called " BIG BOYS" who are always posting here don't defend that then I think that speaks lound and clear. If you scroll up and down the boa forun you will see these people on a daily basis but yet they chose not to talk about this. I think anyone selling super Motleys should have their reputation revued. They will never admit there is a problem for obvious reasons and they will never admit there is no problem because then you could call them a lier.

This subject needs to be talked about by everyone. We are all a part of this community, not just the big guys. Someone should post on every forum about this so more people can be reached. If someone wants to produce Super Motleys then by all means, go right ahead. But they should not be for sale. The people with the knowlage are taking advantage of the people without the knowlage. This is something that should not be swept under the rug. Maybe I will bring it up here in the forums every week so it stays fresh and on the first page. It seems once things hit page two they are old news. Sorry if people think i am running on but this picture clearly needs to be looked at. Have a nice day. Brian

How many breedings do you think have been done to make the super motley? I am sure it hasn't been done as many times as you think.

I am certain outcrossing the motley gene with other recessive and co doms will strengthen it to produce healthy and robust adults.

As far as other boas that are inbred living full term lives? I have yet to see a 30 year old Albino boa or any other morph that you talk about.

Tracey Barker mentioned to me that her super motleys from an albino motley x motley breeding are doing just fine. The whole group is thriving and growing.

I have kept motleys since 2003 and I have had some unfortunate litters but I think positive and keep trying to make new crosses. If this was a dead gene, I do not believe that a lot of the educated members of this community would keep trying to breed this morph.

Good luck with your future motley purchase. You wont find a better boa out there!
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Spencer

If I remember correctly Tracy said she was going to keep all of her Super Motleys until she knew more about them. I have talked to Tracy in Daytona on other subjects and she is a very nice lady and she and her husband have a very good reputation.

From what I understand about young Super Motleys is that they start out very well and after 18 months or so the start to go down hill and eventually die. I am going to get a Motley this year and probably more then one. I will probably never try for a Super Motley. There are people out there who can answer all the questions I asked. All I want is for the answers to be known by all, not just for me. As a reptile community we should all try to help each other so that this can be more enjoyable for everyone. We are all in this together. Boas are my favorite by far.

I don't think people should be selling Super Motleys when there is such a dark cloud lingering over head.

Well, I do have 4 year olds, so I can say there isn't an automatic 18 month old death sentence. They do need to be "fixed" though, if possible.

from those breeders that have produced motleys and have held on to them. If they read these posts, please let us know the status of these supers.

I don't doubt that over time with the cross breedings into different lines and other morphs will strengthen this gene, and hopefully produce viable fertile super motleys...because they are by far the most impressive morph ever...just to imagine what you can do with a super or what a sharp sunglow super motley may look like one day is mind blowing. we'll get there, but we need to be responsible with theese breedings and those who have ahd the adavantage to produce some should be reporting to the public any developments good or bad.

I hope they do.

My super male is producing sperm, doing fine, and with a female now. Have to see what happens.

I have a Central Super. He was 2 years old when I got him and that 2 years ago. The Super have problems like the Super Jungles have. In time and out crossing will bring strong Super Motleys and Super Jungles TOO..

Mike T
Boas Etc

NP

After producing the first two Super Aztecs in 2007 and realizing they had minor "neourological ticks", I was adament about taking them to Daytona. I wanted prospective investors to see for themselves, the condition of the Supers, and then decide for themselves. I could not possibly take thousands of dollars from someone without being totally honest about my animals. I guess it was just the way I was raised. Bob Potts

Well Bob,
I think your honesty will get you a lot more respect from people. I know it will from me. I think you are doing the right thing. Every time I see you at a show I tell you some day I am going to get me one of those Aztecs. Right now I want to get into a Motley program and I have been asking tons of questions from Motley breeders for about a year and a half. I think people should know about what they are getting themselves into before they go full steam ahead. Your super project is still very new so who knows what may become of that. The Motleys have had more out crossing than the Aztec. I like them all. Thanks for sharing your information with all of us. Talk to you later.
Brian

Thank you Bob. That is the honorable thing to do as the Aztec project is your baby. You did do the right thing.
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Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site
The Boaphile Photo Gallery Link