Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I bought a 14-month old female dragon from a person in MI. I paid $412 for the dragon and when it arrived I noticed that the dragon has some breathing issues (coarse exhale). I emailed the seller right away (same day I received the dragon - Tues 3/24) and told her about the issue and that I will observe the dragon coz it may just be because of the stress in the shipping. She agreed and told me to keep her posted. Emailed her back Sunday (3/29) and told her that I'll consult a Vet the next day, Monday (3/30), to have the dragon checked up because the breathing is still the same and the dragon is not active. She responded back the same day, Sunday, and said OK and that she also wants to know what is happening.

The result came out that the dragon has a respiratory problem and have a heavy mucus build up. The dragon was injected with ENROFLOXACIN and given oral meds for 10 days (Baytril). The bill came out to $151. I told the seller about this and she told me that the dragon was healthy when she shipped it out, and that she couldn't pay the vet bill. According to her I never cleared it out that she has to cover the vet expense. I asked for a full refund and the vet bill and told her I want to return the dragon, because I expected the dragon to be healthy upon arrival. The second option I gave her is to replace the dragon with a dragon (or dragons) of my choice that will be of the same value (or close) to what I paid plus the vet bill ($563.00).

Just need to double check the position I made on this issue if this would be fair to most of you if you were the seller, coz I want to be fair not just to myself, but also to her.

I would appreciate any suggestions or other options on how to deal with this.

Thanks - chuckpb

That was a high amount of money to pay for a beardie and I agree for that amount you should for sure get a healthy beardie. If you paid that kind of money they should for sure be able to refund you a vet bill if you had to take it in right away. I guess the only downside is that you should of asked what to do with the beardie before taking him to the vet. That way if they wanted to exchange beardies or return him for a refund you could of done that. I guess if they will not help you out in anyway I would post what happend on a bunch of websites letting people know about the troubles you have encountered with that company. Good luck with that but at least the beardie should be in good health soon.

Pretty expensive dragon.

Was the dragon shipped over night? Was the shipping box properly packaged (insulated, heat pack etc). It is possible the dragon was completely healthy when packaged but if chilled during shipping, plus stress, it could cause a sudden URI. Though I would expect it would have needed to have a minor one or be recovering from one for it to get bad quickly.

As you didn't work a deal with the seller to cover vet charges if you took the dragon to the vet, I don't see any reason to expect her to re-imburse you the cost to see the vet. She certainly should offer to either reimburse you the cost of the dragon, or exchange it for a healthy one of equal value.

So far it sounds like she is being cooperative and willing to replace the dragon.
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PHLdyPayne

The hard part after thinking about this for a while since I live in MI (near detroit) I realized that it has been a little warmer the last week minus yesterday when it snowed again but 60 during the day is still cold and at night it still went down to freezing. I do not know anyone who would ship anything live right now to this area and give a guarantee for it. I do not know where you live but im sure the beardie did get cold even if it was overnight due to the weather right now.

I get Hornworms shipped to me ground every week all year which takes 2 days to get to NJ. I had no DOA's this winter at all. If the animal was packaged correctly there shouldn't have been a problem.

Hi,

The dragon was in a cloth bag/sack packed in a 9"x6"x8.5" insulated box w/ 1 heat pack and she was shipped to me (Northern California) last 3/23 overnight and received it the next day at 10am.

I emailed her about bringing the dragon to the vet after 5 days of observing the dragon and no offer from her to just return the dragon or some other options. I was hoping that when I emailed her about going to the Vet a day before, that she would have said "No, i can't afford a vet, just return her to me and I'll refund you", but instead of that I got "I'm curious as to what's going on.Let me know.." as if it was my responsibility to take care of the dragon's health condition after paying $400. I'm just venting out here, pls don't take this negative...just want to understand a third party's opinion.

As for the seller being cooperative to replace the dragon, well, I'm still giving her time to make up her mind. I haven't got a response yet.

I appreciate all your inputs.

Thanks - chuckpb

At the very least, IMO, she should refund the cost of the vet bill from the cost of the dragon. Either that or give you a full refund and you send the dragon back. There is no way that a dragon can get that sick overnight. I hope she does the right thing and you two can come to an agreement that is fair.
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Great spirits have always been recieved with violent opposition by mediocre minds. Albert Einstein

Smells like a bad transaction to me. Stick to your guns, hold this breeder accountable for at least the vet bill. Don't worry about being fair.

Respiratory infections don't happen in a day. They need time to take shape and manifest. An honest breeder would not claim full-health when they knew the dragon was coughing up a bit. If they claim to have been unaware of the coughing problem, that is a breeder who doesn't spend enough time with animals.

I think that cloth bags are among the worst mediums to pack lizards in. I made a purchase last year through a breeder that used a cloth bag to pack the dragon. When I pulled the little girl out she looked terrible. I and think it was from getting nails caught in thread, moving around in the box too much and not feeling secure at all. She took the longest to acclimate compared to my other dragons that were shipped.

Good breeders go to great lengths to ensure a live, happy arrival. They package the lizards in plastic containers or deli cups. They use packing paper or newspaper to surround the containers to secure them and prevent moving in transit.

My dragons from Bloodbank, Draggintails, and Garrick DeMeyer all were packaged this way. Pulled out the little guys and they were eating and showing gusto in 5 minutes or less.

From a buyers standpoint I would be pissed about receiving a sick dragon, and lack of help with a respiratory infection. This is something if caught early enough just increasing temps(day and night) and really checking your temps/setup could help. If this was a breeder, I would have expected at least this basic help/suggestions.

From a sellers standpoint if you did not communicate this with the seller wanting them to cover vet fees, how can you expect them to just pay out for that? Really should be made clear beforehand. I have had situations similar.....reptiles, dogs, and communication has to take place as to what both parties want/expect.

Aside from that, shipping a dragon should not cause a problem such as a respiratory infection if packaged right. Sounds like the packaging should have been fine(whether you like boxes/bags/cups whatever...it was insulated and had a heat pack so it really does sound like something that happened before the shipping took place(or at least started).

Its really a crappy deal, hopefully some type of resolution can be worked out.

Yep, I agree. My concern is more with animal quality and price issues.

Overnight shipping does not put an animal into immediate ill health.

I would like to hear about husbandry, from both the seller and the buyer, that is where the trouble is. Great husbandry can address simple RI issues.

As for the vet bills, you can't expect the seller to cover those unless specifically agreed upon. My vet will see me for free. Your vet may charge $500 for an "emergency visit", there are just too many variables involved.

But again, this should be more about receiving an incredibly expensive, and possibly poor quality, lizard. $50 would have gotten the animal returned to the seller by Overnight shipping, and for a refund.

Best of luck.
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

If the vet visit fixed the beardie and you found that paying over 400 bucks for the beardie was worth it then the vet bill is worth it too. This will come in handy next time you look to purchase any animal to ask the questions and do the research so you don't have this happen again. Can you post up some pics?

Hi guys,

Thanks for all your responses and suggestions. I isolated the dragon in a 36 x 24 x 18 in. enclosure with a 24" reptisun 10.0 UVB and a basking bulb (basking spot temp 97-110F, 85F on cool side of cage) since I got her.

From the latest email I got from the seller, she told me that she could only refund me the full selling price, after I send her back the dragon. From previous conversations, she specified that she cannot even cover shipping (back to her) and vet/meds fees.

I recognize that I miscalculated the seller when I informed her that I will bring the dragon to the vet. It was a mistake, but I was expecting that she could give me a partial refund as a discount for sending a sick dragon or at least offer to cover the meds (less the vet visit fee, since I did not make that clear, as you noted). I'm sure I would have not been in this situation if I only dealt with a reputable breeder. But anyways...Now I am left with two options:

1. Send her back the dragon and get my $412, pay for shipping back the dragon, and I lost the vet fee, meds, and shipping fee (- $200),

2. Keep the dragon, hope it recovers in full health, and ended up paying $563 (price of the dragon and the vet fees). With the risk that if she doesn't make it, or if she gets more complications, I could possibly lose more money, since I won't have the chance of getting a refund. Especially with the kind of seller I'm dealing with.

What would you do if you were in my situation? I would appreciate suggestions...

The dragon is a 14 month old female Cawley Red Hypo that the seller bought from Dachiu last year. Here's a pic

Ty - chuckpb

Visa/MC have a purchase satisfaction guarantee. Did you buy using Visa/MC? You can have the whole transaction charged back, that will give you a lot of leverage with the seller. Most likely you will end up getting your money back for the purchase (and keep the animal) but the vet bill will be on you.

I think this is a very unethical seller. Health warranties are often and should always be standard especially on a $400 animal. She should reimburse you 100% of the vet bills in my opinion.

When you said you were going to take the dragon to the vet she should have offered to take the dragon back if she was unwilling to reimburse the costs.

Sorry everyone but I don't think much of breeders like this. Dragons are not a commodity, they are a living being. From the sound of it, this breeder only cares about her profit.

Doing a chargeback on your card to try and extort the vet fees that weren't agreed upon is not even close to ethical. What an odd world some people live in.

You way overpaid for the animal, that was your ignorance (lacking the knowledge).

The seller seems very ignorant on proper husbandry and establishing a reputation of integrity.

Kind of a perfect storm. But there is a way to sunshine.

The seller did offer you a full refund. Take it. Send it back, get back your $400, and buy from a reputable breeder. Chalk up the vet bills and shipping expenses as a lesson learned.

There are many good breeders. Do some research, and start again. Getting back the $400 will go a LOOOOONG way to buying a strong healthy animal from a knowledgeable source (for a significantly lower price) and you will come out far ahead in the long run.

And for goodness sakes, offer a better basking temp.

Best of luck.
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

You have to make the final choice on what your going to do. From hearing about this though if you send the animal back you are putting it back in danger so i would say hold on to it and lesson learned. Although for half that money you can find lots of very nice beardies. Right now is the perfect time to be looking everyone is hatching them.

I don't think it's unethical. All merchants that accept Visa/MC agree that the buyer gets a satisfaction guarantee at their risk. The animal was sick when it arrived. It was unethical for the breeder to sell an animal that was not in good health.

The breeder is being unreasonable. She charged $400 for an unhealthy dragon. She should be happy to return only the cost of vet bills. Dragons sell for wholesale $25, all the rest is profit.

the major thing i have about this whole this is he said the dragon came from dachiu and if you look at his website he has beardies that are very nice going to 65 bucks. So if you take that into consideration and then minus the vet bill she is still making money on the beardie. Just shows more reason why you should go to a breeder you can trust and that others have had multiple encounters with that were good.

Huh? He said the beardie came from MI. The Dachiu's are in PA. I can tell you that there is no way the Dachiu's would ever sell a sick dragon, and they offer a 90 day health guarantee. So there would have never been any problem if they bought from the Dachiu's.

The dragon came from the Dachiu's a year ago. Keep in mind the Dachiu's are a very large breeder and most of their dragons are spoken for even before hatching. The dragons on the web page are what was not presold. They are I guess the less impressive of their hatchlings. They do sell many higher priced dragons to other breeder in the US and abroad.

I was just saying you could go pick up a left over from his own page and get a still very nice beardie without paying 400 for it. Thats all i was saying im guessing this guy didn't do much research and did more of a i want it right now buy. Those usually turn out bad one way or another.

R.I. don't happen in a day. The breeder most definately knew something was up. $400 is alot of money to pay for a sick lizard. Highly unethical, totally beliveable

Get your initial investment back minus shipping as stated. Write off the rest, your not going to get it back. Join as many herp forums as you can and get the word out on your experience with this breeder.

$400 can get you 4 dragons from quality, trusted stock next time around. There are more deals than ever.

I'm with Robyn too, get the basking hotspot up. At least 120 degrees(surface temp measured w/ temp gun)on a nice wide surface.

Good luck and let us know what your doing if you return it come back to the site and ask around there are a ton of guys here with lots of beardies they can help you find what your looking for.

Hi,

Just want to respond to some of Robyn’s post…

“Doing a chargeback on your card to try and extort the vet fees that weren't agreed upon is not even close to ethical. What an odd world some people live in.”

Sending an unhealthy dragon after receiving full payment (healthy cash) is unethical. Assuming she didn’t know that she sent a sick dragon.., doing nothing as a seller after she was told that the dragon she sent was sick and offering no resolution is irresponsible. As I said, I recognize my miscalculation when I informed her about my plan of going to the vet, and I am willing to lose that amount, but for me to shoulder shipping so she could receive her dragon back is absurd. Being a responsible breeder, if the buyer told you the first day that there was something wrong with the dragon, what would you say or do? Shouldn’t you tell your buyer that you are willing to replace it or refund the money back? Would you let your buyer shoulder shipping expenses back to you when in fact you were the one who sent out the sick dragon, when the buyer paid you to send him a healthy one? If I ever file a claim or chargeback, it is because I received a sick animal (just like receiving damaged merchandise)…and not to extort her for the vet fees.

“You way overpaid for the animal that was your ignorance (lacking the knowledge).”

Before I went out to the market of buying this dragon, I knew what I was looking for...I knew what I wanted. I was looking for a FEMALE RED HYPO, close to breeding age, with no flaws, virgin or bred only once and produced by a reputable breeder. One that I could pair up with my Blood/Allen Male. I have 8 female dragons, but none would make the match that I prefer for the project I was thinking of. I knew I wasn’t looking for an outcross of so many different bloodlines. Since I have a special male, I just thought that I should get him a special female. I’m sure he will hump on any of my current female dragons, but I’m not here for mass production.., not here for profit…I’m here for the passion of breeding animals and hoping that I could produce a special morph in the future.

I didn’t want to get a 6 week old from Dachiu, because I don’t want to wait for more than a year, and the Male dragon waiting is already over a year old. This female dragon popped out after waiting and searching ads and website for 2 months, and I thought that this would be a great buy for me. It appeared that I overpaid it, because I received an unhealthy dragon. But if I received a healthy one, then I don’t think that it was overpriced. Whether an item for sale is overpriced or not is a perception thing. You don’t tell an art collector paying $50,000 for a Picasso print that the item is overpriced, just because you value it differently than he does. For that collector, what is important to him is his opinion and his perception of the item’s value.

A 6 week old Cawley red Hypo from Dachiu ranges from $150-195, depending on coloration and size. Say I buy a $195 female (or $200 for purposes of discussion) and give it you so you could take care of it and feed it for 1 year at your own expense, and then I come back after a year…Would you allow me just to pay you $100 so I can have the dragon? That will make the total cost of the dragon $300…$100 lower than what I paid this seller. Is that the correct price for the said dragon?

I may be just a year old in breeding dragons, but I have 15 years experience in breeding purebred dogs and game fowls (since cockfighting is legal where I came from). I also had the chance to live with an uncle who bred race horses when he was a lot younger. So, I’m not new to animal breeding…I know when the price of a stock is just fair. If I feel an animal is overpriced and if I don’t need it badly for my breeding, I don’t haggle..,I just ask for the final price and just walk away if I don’t get it to the price I want. I give that respect to the breeder who took time and effort to take care of the animal. If there is something that I am ignorant with…that is low-balling…I don’t do that…out of respect to the other person. When I got a Yellow Italian Leatherback from Josh last year and he gave me a $100 cut on the final tab, I rejoiced…I was so happy because I knew I got a great deal at $500. He was the one who invested his time and passion to improve the morph of the animal I bought, and I am just reaping the rewards of his work by paying the price tag.

If anybody could show me a lead to a 12-14 month old flawless and healthy Red Hypo female (either Cawley Red, Satyrday Red, or Allen Red) that came from Dachiu, Phantom, Alpha, or Bloodbank, at a $300 price range at this time, I would buy that in a heartbeat! (but I only need 1 right now). Of course, the price would be affected in a few months because of the influx of supply.

As for the seller…I gave her 2 choices…Either she sends me a full refund + shipping fee so I can send her the dragon back ( I lose the vet fees, she loses 2x the shipping fee…that’s the lesson for my “ignorance” and her lesson for sending a sick dragon) OR she reimburses me for $150 as a discount on the original price for shipping me a sick dragon. I may possibly lose the dragon if the dragon doesn’t recover, but so be it. If she doesn’t agree to any of these, then I would file a claim/charge back for receiving a sick reptile, and would disclose the name of the seller NOT PUBLICLY, but only to those who are interested. I may lose the claim, but at least I fought for what is due to me. This is not about the money, I can easily earn that… this is about principles.

While I understand that I should learn a lesson in this transaction…I believe it is also just right to give irresponsible sellers/breeders a lesson. No one should get a free ride. Breeders/Sellers should be ethical and responsible with their dealings…and that should be non-negotiable.

Ty - chuckpb

You know what they say about opinions, what they are like, and how everyone has one right? Who cares what someone else thinks the price of the dragon should be.

Just try to get something worked out with the seller and move on. Don't waste too much of your time getting worked up over it. You could always take the situation to the BOI if you really want people to know what happened, but the mud slinging can get heavy.

Also, Tammy from draggintails had a few cawley red females all around a year old, virgins, that were all priced around $300. Probably all sold, but good dragons are out there reasonably priced.

Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes the bear eats you........know what I mean?

Chris Allen

Good luck hope it works out!