Reptile & Amphibian Forums

just got a baby savannah and i have heard many different things from different places. is sand ok to use as substrate and if not what is? the sand i have in there is the calcium sand. what besides crickets can a baby eat? before anyone tells me to do my research, i have. i was just wanting opinions...i was told they could eat a numerous amount of things. he/she is eating heck out of the small crickets. thats another question, how can you tell what sex it is? im still trying to find a name....

No, use dirt. Plain dirt. I use a top soil mixed with play sand.
How small of a baby? Most will eat 50 crickets a day, feed all she/he can eat. They eat alot.
Cant determine sex until older, usually around 2 feet plus.
Be sure to have 70-75% humidity and a basking spot of 130 degrees.
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1.1.0 YBS
1.3.0 RES
1.0.0 red belly cooter
0.0.2 mud turtles
1.1.0 Savannah Monitor
0.1.0 Blackthroat monitor
0.1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.1.0 Mountain Horned dragon
2.1.0 Ball pythons
1.0.0 Bearded dragons
cats, dog, ferrets, rabbit, rats.

Like the previous post said, use a mixture of top soil & sand. You can add some leaf litter or something for added visual appeal.

Feed crickets, various roaches, and pinky/fuzzy mice. As it gets older and larger make rodents a larger % of diet.

Can't stress how critital the 130+ degree basking spot is. You'll slowy kill your monitor without it.

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike Heinrich,
Mike@amazontreeboa.org
www.amazontreeboa.org

"just got a baby savannah and i have heard many different things from different places."

This is common because so many people buy them, inexpensive imported by the hundreds of thousands every year

"is sand ok to use as substrate and if not what is? the sand i have in there is the calcium sand."

No, sand is a not a substrate, it can be an ingredient in a substrate. You need topsoil, such as what burrowing animals living near river banks live in.

"what besides crickets can a baby eat?"

Small roaches, small meal worms, and baby mice when big enough to. As soon as possible include mice and baby quail in the diet. For now feed as amny crickets as it will eat. Watch for it to stay long and thin when it grow up, you dont want one of those crawling balloons that you commonly see in peoples cages.

"before anyone tells me to do my research, i have."

Seriously, if you did research aside from one lousey source you would know that they are grassland monitors (Africas smallest) that grow to 2-4ft in length (commonly 3ft). They eat almost anything that fits in their mouth, are imported at a rate of around 100,000 a year to the US and most keepers dont have them live very long, or the demand for importing so many wouldnt be there. Spend alot of money and time on a proper cage, its best to build one that has space for a deep dirt to burrow in, some climbing objects, a basking spot that is around 125f as a hatchling, and in a few months up to 135f or higher.

"i was just wanting opinions...i was told they could eat a numerous amount of things. he/she is eating heck out of the small crickets."

There are opinions, then there is helpful advice, this forum in the last many years has seen hundreds of bosc owners come and go because the animal dies from the owners stubborn dislike of keeping the lizard correctly.

"thats another question, how can you tell what sex it is?"

Right now you wont be able to even accurately guess, you need to see secondary sexual characteristics, as with all animals this happens after the animal is sexually maturing.

ok, if i had wanted attitude i would have asked for it. i did do my research however my research said many different things....i have a book, ive looked up many sources on the internet and asked 3 breeders. so that is more then one. i kno they need it hot. but my sources did not tell me 130 degrees. many different things were mentioned as substrate but none were said to be the best. and just for you information, no matter how much research a person does,it never fully prepares u for the real thing and it never hurts to ask questions and the negative attitude, laced with a bit of helpful info, is why a lot of owners"come and go" as you put it. people dont want to ask for help and then get stomped on because they are asking for a little extra help.

There was no attitude with what Shvar said, your research was simply misguided as alot of the crap you look up...well most likely sucks anyway, to put it bluntly.

You should look past anything that may come off as offensive, people like Shvar or MikeH will do their best to help you, but you displayed quite a degree of ignorance in your first post - but you know what....theres nothing wrong with that, most people who are just starting out with monitors do that, I did too hahahaha.

It is good to have people come and post when their animals are young, by following good advice which is made better through sound research, you wont have to come post on the forums with problems you are having, but successes.

So do your best to not take things personally, becuase for the most part, they are not.

Search back on this forum and follow advise ONLY from people who have a clear record of results from their husbrandry. Very very simple. In fact you really DO NOT want to over complicate it.

Best of luck,
Mike.

[but you displayed quite a degree of ignorance in your first post]

Not really. She's a new owner asking for opinions from keepers. Where's the ignorance??
It was in your comment above.

Yes, you see, it is common for new keepers to be ignorant. As I clearly stated, I was too, and in many regards still am as I am constantly learning in the dynamic process.

People hear the word and they think personal attack. Please understand this is not the case, ignorance is a simple lack of awareness for the given situation, that is all, and we have all displayed it at one time or another. In fact irgnorance is what keeps us going, keeps us learning, for if we knew everything what fun would that be.

It is imperative that you refrain from turning nothing into somthing (IE what is not a personal attack, into one).

Thanks,
Mike.

Ha ha. Make sure to weed out all of the 'bad info' as well. Most people that write those care sheets don't have the slightest clue. Also make sure you are going to a good source and reading from good sources in forums... Everyone replying to you in this thread is accounted as a good source. If I would tell you anything it would just be repeating what these people have told me and what I have seen work as I have raised 2 savannahs from babies and are perfectly healthy from the results of mainly this forum alone and these people along the years. Overlook the 'personal attacks' people are here to help you with your monitor not to judge you as a person. Most importantly don't let them scare you away because they ARE knowledgeable; stick it out and listen and act.
Good Luck!

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1.1 Savannah Monitors (Annah & Terrance)
1.1 Nile Monitor (Lyle)
1.0 Timor Monitor (Timmmmaaayy)
1.0 Blood Python (Kevin)
1.0 Ball Python (Martin)
0.1 Leopard Gecko (Bella)
2.0 Bearded Dragons (Peter & Jack)
1.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake (Hector)
1.1 Kenyan Sand Boas (Wayne & Maude)
1.0 Dwarf Gecko (Little Girl)
1.0 Curly Hair Tarantula (Pube)
1.0 OBT Usumbara Orange Baboon Tarantula (Sin)
1.0 Emperor Scorpion (Ashoka)
2.0 D. auratus (Poison Dart Frogs)
1.0 Peacock Bass (Gary)

>>ok, if i had wanted attitude i would have asked for it. i did do my research however my research said many different things....

You did the right thing. THIS is the right place to come for good info. You can read every book, mag article, or website you can find and still not find the best information...but you'll find it here.

People act funny on forums, who knows why, but they do. You can ask "newbie" questions to people from this forum via email and get very good feedback; but ask those same questions on the forum and you'll get talked down to like you're a total idiot....it's just one of those unexplained mysteries....
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike Heinrich,
Mike@amazontreeboa.org
www.amazontreeboa.org

ok, i stand corrected...it just sounded like you were giving me an attitude...im sorry....im just used to getting attacked on boards like this......how do i get the basking up that high? the bulb i am using is 75 watts i think...i get that sand isnt good...ok thats great...i saw something in the pet store that said something about clay sand or something with the word clay in it and i think it was for burrowers...one of my breeders told me it was like keeping a bearded dragon...unless my sources on beardies are wrong, it is nothing like keeping a beardie. i have substrate i use i think its called jungle earth...i use that for my snakes...would that work? right now its in a 20L gal tank. i didnt know i needed to keep the humidity up..*sigh* there are so many diff opinions about things that its hard to weed out the good advice from the crap. anything else i need to kno? again i apologize for taking offense, as i said i have been attacked on boards like these..the most recent was goosemoose about a sick rat. anyway thanks for all the advice.

Go to a garden center and get "top soil", but make sure you don't get the stuff with fertilizer or plant food mixed in it. Then mix sand with it.

For basking temps, go to ProExotics and order a temp gun. Read their care sheets while you're on their site. Place rocks and/or chunks of wood under the basking light at various heights so the monitor can get closer to the bulb as needed. Use the temp gun to check the exact temps of the different levels of the basking area.

When the books arrive at ProExotics, GET A COPY. Read their care sheets in the mean time.

Do a forum search for "retes stack" for basking site ideas.
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike Heinrich,
Mike@amazontreeboa.org
www.amazontreeboa.org

I have gotten that same attitude too! Not here but other places it happens to all beginners nothing personal... it happened to me this year in fact. It usually happens if you buy the critter without asking them how to set it up first. They probably wanted you to communicate with them BEFORE getting the pet.
If they feel the pet isn't getting the proper care they get moody

This is precisely why most are gone in not time at all, "this forum in the last many years has seen hundreds of bosc owners come and go because the animal dies from the owners stubborn dislike of keeping the lizard correctly".
You see new owners get info from bad books (all but around 2-3 total ever written are any good) about bosc monitors (not actually savannah monitors, that was the name given to the much larger whitethroat originally, later the bosc was mistakenly called that name in the American pet trade).
You see most keepers cant seem to justify spending hundreds or thousands of dollars caring for a $25-$50 lizard, thats what causes them to disappear from the forums, and the monitor to die so early.
Build a suitable cage with a solid top to prevent heat and moisture loss, venting in the sides. Deep dirt substrate, something that animals in the wild use to burrow in, dont use clay or sand.
The basking temps are surface temps, not air temps, use an infared thermometer to measure the basking spot. The air temps should vary from one end of the cage to the other from 80f plus to around 68f on the other end. I only use 45 watt bulbs and accomplish this with basking temps from 145-205f. High basking temps are easy to obtain, simply place the bulb of low wattage close to the basking spot, this way the temps vary as they should within the cage from one end to the other.
I use 24/7 basking lights only, no other lights at all, have been doing that for years now.
Here are some pictures showing basking temps.
This was one of the basking spots for my 6ft 8 inch albig.

This was from the beardies that I bred years ago.

This is my flaviargus cage now, it was another albigs cage. The temps are a few degrees lower now, around 160 or so.

This was taken from an ackie cage that raised a few generations of red ackies in it.

Keep in mind that for hatchlings I used 125-130f only, once they are around a few months old the temps go up, and up as they grow.
With hatchlings I used 25 watt bulbs in smaller solid plastic cages not aquariums. The ackie cage above is a large aquarium that took alot of trial and error in adjusting ventilation to get it right. I used 155f basking temps with a timor that was sold at over 9 years old.
Good luck and ask alot of specific questions on here about cages, temps, humidity (important to prevent dehydration, a huge killer of reptiles in captivity), foods, basking spot construction, etc.

Wow you got your surface temps very high what is the air temp typically? Also what temp is the cool side of the cage? Just wondering.

I have witnessed have been an ongoing argument in this forum for years, ever since I have been here at least. Some say they are too high while I say they are working for him and his lizards so if it's not broke why fix it sort a thing. As Faust used to say "if you get them hot enough you could feed them cement" or something along those lines.
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1.1 Savannah Monitors (Annah & Terrance)
1.1 Nile Monitor (Lyle)
1.0 Timor Monitor (Timmmmaaayy)
1.0 Blood Python (Kevin)
1.0 Ball Python (Martin)
0.1 Leopard Gecko (Bella)
2.0 Bearded Dragons (Peter & Jack)
1.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake (Hector)
1.1 Kenyan Sand Boas (Wayne & Maude)
1.0 Dwarf Gecko (Little Girl)
1.0 Curly Hair Tarantula (Pube)
1.0 OBT Usumbara Orange Baboon Tarantula (Sin)
1.0 Emperor Scorpion (Ashoka)
2.0 D. auratus (Poison Dart Frogs)
1.0 Peacock Bass (Gary)

Thats a very good point you just made, that is often overlooked, at least I did when I first got into this.

The application of husbandry and its successes/failures for one person does not nessaccarily apply to all people. People are different and their support styles are different and most importantly so are the monitors.

So what works some wont for others n vise versa.

cheers
Mike.

The idea is that the rest of the husbandry, and the environment they live in must be able to support them during any extremes. Extremes can be better, or worse, depends on what the environment offers to balance those extremes.
If you have very high basking temps it allows them to bask shorter periods of time, and go about being a monitor, not exposing themselves for longer periods of time. You would be suprised that if you measured surface temps even on average summer day on the roof of the convention center in Denver with an air temp of around 80f you would see 265f surface temps. If you measured surface temps in Africa where Albigs naturally bask, or in Aussie where ackies and many other s bask you would be shocked at the surface temps you would see.
Keep in mind that the air temps are still around 83-85f around the basking surface, still normal. But it could indicate that if Im capable of easily getting these high temps with such low watt bulbs that my cages are more efficient than others who do not see this. This also indicates that the cages that it takes alot more to get similar temps are less efficient, therefore the cages are losing more moisture, and are cause for the lizards to dehydrate.
This summer (on a very warm day)check the surface temps in the afternoon on asphalt in front of your own house, on cement, on plywood, rock, etc. Let us know what you see.
Ive seen 115f on dry tree bark,on a cooler October day around 59f.

One point that I like to add, that it is important to have a cage with solid walls and top. NOt only does it keep in the moisture, it also keeps in the heat so you don't need higher wattage bulbs to keep the cage at the right temperature. This is especially important in the winter time when it gets cold. You can obtain the desirable temperature much easier with solid walls and top without using higher wattage and therefore risk drying out the cage.

wow! everyones giving me lots of good advice which i appriciate. I do see the point about people dont justify spending a lot of money and so on...could be that some of them cant afford it. ok so the sand is not good, i get that...temp needs to be high i get that...the aquarium i have it in now has a hard wire top and the light is resting on it. so how would you suggest i keep the temp up? i have a thermometer on the hot side. would two lights be better then? i think i can get something that he could sit close to the light...my beardie has a little tree thing and a hammock. hes always on the tree unless hes eating. my room stays very hot in the day. i know eventually im going to have to get a huge cage built. i was prepared for that. one thing i was curious about. i have a water bowl big enough for it to soak in and drink and etc but for some reason he doesnt use it and prefers to be misted. my beardie is the same way. anyone else have that happen?

If you have a screen cover on the cage I would try covering as much of the top up as you can up to the light either with a sheet of masonite or however you would want to go about that, to hold humidity in. As far as heat goes you don't want to get to high watt of a bulb, maybe a 75 or 100 which is hot but like you said give a gradient with rocks or would so the hottest spot (closest to the heat lamp) is 130 (ish) and it gets lower from there so the lizard has a choice. As far as the water bowl- Mine have 3 water bowls in their enclosure, yet I have to go in about every other day and spray my male. The female uses the water bowls for some reason but not the male. I also spray the entire enclosure down with a hose about once a week for humiditys sake and so that I know they are getting a good soak / drink at least once a week.
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1.1 Savannah Monitors (Annah & Terrance)
1.1 Nile Monitor (Lyle)
1.0 Timor Monitor (Timmmmaaayy)
1.0 Blood Python (Kevin)
1.0 Ball Python (Martin)
0.1 Leopard Gecko (Bella)
2.0 Bearded Dragons (Peter & Jack)
1.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake (Hector)
1.1 Kenyan Sand Boas (Wayne & Maude)
1.0 Dwarf Gecko (Little Girl)
1.0 Curly Hair Tarantula (Pube)
1.0 OBT Usumbara Orange Baboon Tarantula (Sin)
1.0 Emperor Scorpion (Ashoka)
2.0 D. auratus (Poison Dart Frogs)
1.0 Peacock Bass (Gary)

>> ok so the sand is not good, i get that...temp needs to be
>> high i get that

It is a bit more complicated than this. The lizard needs to have the option of high basking temperatures. However, it also needs the option to cool off when necessary. This means the cool side of the enclosure should be somewhere around 75 F.

>> the aquarium i have it in now has a hard wire top and the
>> light is resting on it. so how would you suggest i keep the
>> temp up?

What I do for all the monitors I keep in glass cages is I go to home depot, buy some plexiglass (actually 1/4 inch acrylic if I can find it), an appliance replacement cord, a low profile metal wiring box, and one of those cheap ceramic light fixtures. I cut the plexi to fit the top of the cage and install the light fixture on the underside of the plexi, with the appliance cord to supply power to the bulb (so you can just plug it in to the wall). Then I get rid of the screen top and use the plexi covering with installed light instead. Voila! Now the light bulb is on the inside of the cage and the cage is covered to hold in heat and (more importantly) humidity.

>> i have a thermometer on the hot side.

Good, but it is not really enough. Get a non-contact thermometer (a.k.a temp gun - Pro exotics and Bean Farm sell them), and get another thermometer for the cool side of the cage.

Good luck,

Luke

Your temps will go way up if you replace your bulb with a spot lamp, I prefer the indoor/outdoor bulbs. A 50 watt spot bulb will produce 130 degrees basking spot at about a 16 inch distance. If you want your lizard to soak more, usually all you have to do is place your lamp closer to or over your water source. This makes it warmer and also kicks out more humidity. When I do this, its not uncommon to see my monitors soak for hours a day and do all their business in there making for a easy maintenance. If you can't change the top to a solid lid with the lights inside, tinfoil makes for a great temp substitute.

mike

She is a large amount of eye candy.

Shes pretty much the same as usual. Calm friendly, big, heavy, and inquisitive.

Check out the caresheet on our site, it will cover the very basics for you.

The only decent Savannah book is by Ravi and Daniel Bennett. The recent Sav articles in Reptiles Magazine and the other Sav books are actually the WORST possible thing to refer to, they are just horrible.

Unfortunately, the Bennett Sav book is out of print and hard to find, but we have 100 copies on the way from Daniel himself, so will have it back in stock shortly.

Get that book, check out our caresheet, you can get your husbandry up to speed in no time.

Best of luck!
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles