Reptile & Amphibian Forums

My husband and I purchased a male ball python about two years ago. He was already a year or so old. He's a wonderful eater...eating a small rat every week to every other week. I know that sounds strange...him only eating a small at the age of three, but he's barely two feet long and about one and about twice the width of my thumb. He's not underweight, he's not sick, he's just small. Which we didn't think was strange really until we bought a pastel ball python last week that is a year old and is bigger than him. And we started thinking about his age. So, we started wondering, is there a dwarf ball python? And that would explain why my guy is so small compaired to my other balls?

Lyndsey

lol well i guess so, i mean, everything else has a "mini me"...why not ball pythons. but i guess it would be hard to tell since bps have a range of sizes that they can reach- males can stay under 3ft, or around 3ft.
besides,what we call em- marbles? ahahahah...
but i guess theres a possiblity.
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~Snake Charmer~
0.1 russian tortoise (natasha)
3.1 dogs (church, bandit, willy and tonka)
1.2 cats (taz, squeaky, cami)
0.1 king snake (q aka curly q or queenie)
2.2 'normal' ball pythons (zenith, butters, zahara, yet to be named adult female)

Generally when a "dwarf" snake is introduced it is found on an island. For example, irian jaya carpets are significantly smaller than their mainland counterparts. Boas from central America (composed of islands or island-like territories with other boundaries), are smaller than those from the amazon in southern America. Dwarf reticulated pythons are all found on surrounding islands in their habitat range. This occurrence is due to island biogeographics, which in simple terms, generally predicts that large animals get smaller and tiny animals get larger on islands.

Since ball pythons are largely found in a contiguous range in Africa, I'd be surprised if an actual dwarf population was ever found. It would have to be significantly cut off from the other populations, leading to no gene flow.

Snakes can have extremely stunted growth if they're not fed enough at a young age. It's possible that whoever you bought him from was not feeding enough. It's also possible that you may be feeding him smaller meals than he can actually take.

I don't see why not. We MAY already have two new morphs that come with smaller size - desert and black axanthic. It's probably too early to be sure the small size will hold with either but I have read reports of a few of the early animals from both of these new morphs being on the small side. No reason there couldn't be some otherwise normal looking genetically small ball pythons too.

"He's a wonderful eater...eating a small rat every week to every other week. I know that sounds strange...him only eating a small at the age of three, but he's barely two feet long and about one and about twice the width of my thumb. He's not underweight, he's not sick, he's just small."
He's small becuase he is underfed. By feeding your ball python once every two weeks, you never offered him enough nutrition to get any bigger than he is. Feed him more and watch him sprout.
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www.strictlyballs.ca

When I said he eats every week to every other week, I did not mean we only offer him food every other week. If he doesn't eat it, what should I do, force feed him? I appreciate your response, but without full details, I do not think you have enough information to say I'm not feeding him enough. Also, I can not offer him a larger rat if he can't swallow it. I offer him what he can eat, and what he's willing to eat. Now, the comment about his previous owner not feeding him well is undoubtable true. When I purchased him, I was told he was a finiky eater, eating once a month or so, but that has not been the case since we purchased him. He's the third snake we've purchased that I actually consider a "rescue." The first was a five foot female ball python living in a mesh tank the size of a 29 gallon tank with only a heat rock as a heat source. Her previous owner told me the same, she doesn't eat well, but the second day we had her she was eating. They're feeding process was to drop LIVE small rats in the tank with her and check on them a few days later. She does have a feeding problem, she's not as thick as most females her age, but she is healthy. My second ball, a male around six or so months when we bought him, was skin and bone, literally. I could count his ribs. His pervious owners had him in a ten gallon tank, with dirt from the yard as substrate, no heat source at all, and they were trying to feed him a frog, oh, and no water dish. I couldn't leave him there, so we bought him for $20. A vet trip confirmed he had a bacteria infection in his scales. Now you'd never know he looked like that. I will try to feed him more, but I am not a believer in power feeding to make a bigger snake. I just want them all to be healthy.

I had a Male for two years that never grew past 20". Last I heard, that snake is now 5+ years old as is at 23". It was a captive hatched animal that I handpicked, fed, and kept like any other Ball Python. It looks like any other yearling, but for whatever reason just won't grow. It happens, could very well be genetic.........
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South Central Herpetological

probably not true dwarfism, just stunted and made dwarf sized....
sometimes they just don't eat and do it to themselves...

I have one adult female that might be a slight dwarf...she is shorter than any other ball I have or had....I also have a bee that is maybe gonna be a dwarfed ball....she is like 20 months old and still has a small head, and a really shortwer body than normal....she has a thick body but really stunted and short...she eats when SHE wants....she'll slam mice maybe three, then again and again maybe for a couple few feedings,,,then not eat till she sheds...might be 3 or 4 weeks till she eats again...been doing this.....she has an odd shape to her kinda also.......(I have seen trout like this also....kinda stubby looking....)....midget bee.....new bee?.....not cool....

......dwarfism is out there ,but not what we want in a ball.....burms and retics maybe, but not balls....

thanxx...good luck....it should be ok if it is just smaller than expected.....it may grow to 4 foot...maybe even more.....they say snakes keep growing, but I have some here that were the same size as now as they were 15 years ago...I think they just max out and kinda stop......

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..J Yohe ....

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Possible. I just got really ticked off when it was posted that I was not feeding my snake properly. I used to visit a few ball python forums years ago, but I got tired of being trashed everytime I made a post. I actually had one guy on another site tell me I was stupid and he hoped my snakes died because I'd posted we had two ball pythons sharing a tank. And I make my first post on here and I've got two people basically telling me it's my fault. But we'll see. All five of my snakes are scheduled for their wellness checkups this coming Friday. Thanks for everyone's input.

"All five of my snakes are scheduled for their wellness checkups this coming Friday"
Wellness checkups? Why would you bring your animals in for a check-up if they're not ill?
I still feel that you helped in aiding this ball python to stay small by either not feeding him enough or too small an item (BTW, feeding a ball python every 5-7 days does not constitute "powerfeeding" but feeding a ball python every 2 weeks does constitute underfeeding).
Whether or not it is you who does not feed enough, or him who just isn't eating enough, I believe the fact is (to answer your original question) that his environment and nutritional deficiencies caused him to be stunted in his growth, and I believe it has nothing at all to do with genetics.
Out of curiosity, by the way you described your other animals, I curious to know what your husbandry is like? Is it possible your male is not eating because he is not being kept in optimal conditions?
Temps? Warm, cool..
Bedding?
Enclosure?
So you still allow "cohabitation"?
Hides?
Type of heat source?
Thermostat?
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www.strictlyballs.ca

Their tanks are at the apporiate heat levels, humidity and they have substrate and hide boxes. How often do you recommend I feed my snakes? Again, do I force feed if they don't eat more than once a week? My snakes have not had a wellness check up in two years and since we recently purchased a pastel, we figured while we were taking him, we should take the others as well. And wellness checkup are just what they're called, wellness, just like preventative maintenance on your car. And so you don't freak out, yes, the new snake is in a separate tank, in a separate room. We wash our hands well between handling snakes. My snakes have thrived since we purchased them, even my 'stunted' ball has gotten bigger since we purchased him. Yes, two of our snakes share a tank, a custom built 4ftx4x2. I will await your disaproval.

don't let anyone get on your nerves here...some know and some don't know....squat......I personally read the posts as if a 17 year old kid wrote them (all of them) and he has 3 balls and knows it all...LOL.....then I go from there......

anyways.....cohabitation is not a bad thing....

bedding doesn't matter...

temps can be all over the place...some balls like it 80 and some balls like it 90....can't make them all happy all the time.....I have heated ones, and non heated ones...and they all do fine...

some soak and spill the water no matter what we do...some never seem to be a bother with wet cages..no matter what size they all are...

food....I have balls (male usually) that eat for 4 months a year...they eat alot...but for just 4 months....then bam,,,,they stop for 8 months...sucks....but they do it....personally I eat when I am hungry, bored, and food is just there...balls can eat when they feel like it...they are offered....(different food types too)...

I don't bother with veterinarians....

some balls grow fats and some grow slowly...and yes, what we do the first couple months matters at times for the rest of their lives...balls born here and fed here do better than balls I buy....I buy good stuff...and some of them turn into total crappy pain in the butt snakes....no matter how much we pay for them,......

have fun.......
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..J Yohe ....

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I'm with J Yohe in that the first year is very important as to the growth of a ball python. Chances are more than likely so that the "damage" to his growth was done while in the previous owners care, and his lack of desire to eat (or his poor internal feeding schedule) was likely "imprinted" previously. As for your husbandry, I honestly could care less if you chose to divulge that information, thought it might be helpful to determine why he isn't interested in food now. Saying everything is ok, doesn't necesarily mean it is though. Maybe you are feeding too small items? As for force feeding, in the 10 years I've been doing this, and the 1500 or so babies I've reared I have only had to force-feed one animal.
I would forego toe "yearly tune-up" for your balls as it is completely unnecesary if you keep your facility clean and disease free. It is likely to do more harm than good (stress-wise).
Good luck.
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www.strictlyballs.ca

Daytime temperatures are usually around 83 to 85 degrees on the warm side, with night time temps around 70 at night. Humidity does vary from 50 to 80 percent sometimes depending on our SC weather. We mist the tanks to raise humidity. We use repti bark for substrate. We do not feed them in their tanks. They have hide boxes on the hot and cool side, but prefer the cool side hide box. They have water dishes large enough for them to soak in if they choose. We use heat lamps instead of heat rocks because of some of the horror stories we've heard. We have the lights were they can not come in contact with them. We offer all of our snakes a rat once a week, sometimes they eat, sometimes they don't. The only snake we have that has never turned down food is our Jungle Carpet x Diamond python who was six months when we bought him. (He is housed alone). He eats any leftovers. Our female ball once went six months without eating, which my vet told me was possible and he'd seen a ball that hadn't eaten for a year. All of our snakes were fed live when we purchased them and have stuck with what has worked for them. They only eat white rats, no other colors we've found with trial and error. The ball in question was fed last Monday and tonight when he was offered a small rat he rejected it. We will try again tomorrow.

Only 85 during the day? Also, why would the temps drop to 70 at night? Do you breed year round? Even then; 70? Seriously?Also, heat lamps? why?
I think you'll have far less feeding issues if you fix your husbandry.
There are some great books on the captive husbandry of ball pythons available at your local pet store that will veer you in the proper direction.
Good luck.
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www.strictlyballs.ca

There is just no satisfying you. When I bought my first ball python four years ago, I also bought "The Guide to Owning a Ball Python" by John Coborn. We also received advise from our vet. This is where I temps from. We do do not breed our snakes, but balls should not be kept at a constant temp, they need a cooling down period. Page 24. What temps to do keep your balls at? I take it by your reaction I'm keeping my tank too cool? Then why do my snakes prefer the cool side? They rarely bask under the light, if it's cold weather or maybe the day after they eat. This whole thing got started because I asked about dwarfs. I personally don't think my snakes have an eating problem. They eat on their schedule. Period.

I searched ball python husbandry on google. Check out the first three hits. Though the last one does recommend a bit higher temp, it does recommend again heat rocks. Check them out and let me know.

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=17 1831&aid=2422

http://www.kingsnake.com/ballpythonguide/#FEEDING

http://www.constrictors.com/Information/BallPythonsCare.html

1. Taking advice from a vet is dicey at best, I have found they usually do more harm than good when it comes to reptiles. Their reptile-related knowledge is, by my estimate, in the bottom 5th percentile when compared to the experienced members on this site alone.
2. Temps should ONLY be dropped at night when breeding. That's all. Ever. NEVER to 70.
3. Heat lamps are, for the most part counterproductive as they not only dry out the air (and seeing that you keep your balls in a fish cage, you should consider that very closely) but basking out in the open (the only way a ball python will benefit from an overhead heat source) goes against there nature. A good ball python manual would have taught you that though.
4. I keep all of my ball pythons at 93 or 94 during the year, and drop the temps at night accordingly for the animals that I will be breeding when necessary. ONLY the animals that will be breeding.
I suggest that you pick up a manual that has relevent information in it in the near future. "Ball Pythons" by Dave & Tracey Barker or "The Complete Ball Python" by Kevin McCurley. Either of these books are jam-packed of useful knowledge.
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www.strictlyballs.ca

My ball python that is in quarantine is the only one in a 'fish cage'. And he's there until he's deemed healthy to be put in the same room with our other snakes. The rest are in custom built enclosures. But to make you feel better, after I typed my last post, I double checked my heats again with an indoor/outdoor thermometer. The basking post was 92.3 degrees (directly under the light). The cool side, next to their hide box was 80 degrees exactly. Now, close your eyes for a moment and imagine if you stayed at a constant 94 degrees, how would you feel. Even in Africa temperatures drop to 68 degrees in the night. Yet these snakes thrive in the wild. Imagine that.

I should have listened to you and not let them get my goat. lol

Well technically a Dwarf is an animal that has a relatively normal body and head size with atypically smaller proportioned or formed limbs or apendages. Since you describe this Ball as being in proportion with it's smaller stature, I think technically he sounds like a midget.