Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Here are the new subocs I got from Dusty:

first is the axanthic normal male. This will probably end up being my favorite snake The next one is a female double het (blonde and axanthic) so I can make more normal silvers:.the last one is an orange (Panther Canyon)male. This guy's really awesome. Great pattern too. All of these are awesome. Can't wait to see how they turn out and what they will produce.
Mike

Nice group Mike. I especially like the orange Panther Canyon one.
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Randy Whittington

I only have one suboc...a beautiful blonde (too bad it's a guy . As good a personality as any snake I have. Very active by day. Also very alert, curious and responsive. BUT, a very fickle feeder, prefering small meals and often refusing. Still robust and growing never the less.

Not sure if I've posted this before but just in case...

that's a beauty. Yeah, I've got a picky one myself. She eats but only rarely. Doesn't seem to lose body weight thought. It just stresses me out

What you described is very typical of many subocs. Most of us who keep more than one have individuals like that -- because they are ALL individuals, and I think sometimes people expect them to be otherwise (it's very easy to do so, speaking personally, LOL, but these are vehicles we've only barely begun to understand), and such expectations are not very realistic. As you and Mike said, those individuals are not anorexic or emaciated, despite the finicky eating behavior, and do continue to grow (even if it's not as fast as WE would like). In fact, finicky females like that will often lay healthy clutches of eggs.

One of the paradoxes of captive-breeding is that the animals that are best-adapted in demeanor, genetics, behavior, and color for a natural life in the wild are often the worst candidates for captivity. They are tuned in to their age-old genetic wiring to HUNT -- not be offered a proverbial microwaved corndog on a paper plate (whether it be live or frozen/thawed). So, we are essentially selectively breeding snakes that are fit for a wild existence right out of the captive population, whether we realize it or not. Sorry to get so philosophical LOL, but all the same, these are phenomena that are everyday common occurrences and topics in ex-situ (aka captive) conservation biology, and it's something seen in every captive population of any species in the animal world.

Dusty R.
Suboc.com -- captive-bred Desert Ratsnakes

Great to read the "philosophy", especially from such an experienced keeper. Makes sense to me. Unfortunately, de-evolution may indeed be at work, although I'm sure we both know that it's pretty hard to really prove this stuff...but then maybe not? Wonder how some of my pretty pets would fare out there?

Man that's a nice blond! I like the way it's pattern is so bold.
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Randy Whittington

Big compliment, especially from you Randy! Quite frankly I love that snake. Got him as an '07 at Anaheim last year from Shannon Brown. Thanks Shannon

Because most subocs are hatched at the onset of winter, many breaders will not ship them until temperatures begin to warm in the spring. Often times these subocs are fed what some refer to as a maintenance diet. I refer to this a starving an otherwise healthy snake. My subocs hatch at weights between 17 and 23 grams. Many subocs that I have purchased, and friends of mine have purchesed this time of year when the subocs are 4 months of age arrive at a weight between 15 - 25 grams. essentially these four month old snakes have lost weight or grown very little since their time of hatching. these subocs are more likely to be problematic feeders throughout their journey to adulthood ( my experience). A healthy, well fed, four month old suboc should weigh between 45 - 75 grams. When purchasing young subocs, be sure to inquire about their current weight. If they are too light, I would recommend reconsidering the purchase. This is my advice, i'm sure many might disagree. Rusty

Hey Rusty, I wondered if you have raised and bred different locals, bloodlines and different color phases of subocs or do you base your opinions about feeding and growth on a pair or two that you had really good success with. I seem to remember you recommending a really heavy feeding regimen for subocs a while back.
My intention is not to put you on the spot or judge you but I just wonder if your opinions are based on a pair or two of really hardy subocs you've had or if you have raised and bred different lines/locals.
I agree that if someone wants a especially hardy suboc they should check out the history or know the breeder really good before getting one or a pair BUT if someone is getting into different locals, lines and that kind of thing I just don't think what you saying flies across the board.

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Randy Whittington

hello randy, i'm happy to elaborate a bit. i currently have over 40 subocs. i have raised almost every one of them since they were hatchlings/juveniles. i started keeping wild caught subocs during the late eighties. they were wild caught snakes i collected myself. i started breeding those wild caught snakes a couple years later. there wasn't as much information sharing back then so i had to figure things out for myself. about the only info anyone would tell you back then was "subocs breed late". there is lots of information sharing these days, but that doesn't always mean the information or advice is the best advice. My advice might be the worst for all i know, but my practices work well for me. anyway, that is briefly the history of my suboc experience. i have worked with many blood lines and several locals. i will stand by my statement, that based on my experience a suboc needs to start feeding and growing at a reasonable rate directly after hatching in order to establish a good, life long feeding pattern. yes, i feed subocs very well. Thanks for your inquiry randy. rusty

My first subocs were a pair of wild caught babies in 74-75. The only info I garnered from the library didn't give me much info. Local area zoos didn't want to give me any info. I just kept feeding them every week, and more often in the summer. I bred this pair in 79 (about 8 eggs; all hatched. Used damp paper towel layer in a large jar). It was probably just luck on my part. Got another pair of wild babies in 80. Raised them same way and bred both pairs for a while, before I sold them and got into milks. There were no blondes or any other morphs around yet.
I got back into subocs in 00 with a pair of het blonde hatchlings, bred these once and have accumulated some silver blondes, and two oranges from dusty, along with some babies I kept.
I don't like to see large bulges in my snakes when feeding. I'll feed some often, but keep the rodents small. I think it eases the digestive process, especially since they're captive in a small area and not moving a lot similar to wild snakes.

Mike