Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I read Kenney and Bruce's research and Im curious about a few things.

1. Are there still pure or true "Goini" out there in the wild ?
It seems the criteria was Striped, patternless and high oval blotch and belly pattern plays a role as well. Does anybody catch any that look like that ? Sean would best be able to answer this as he has alot of expirience down there in the field.

2. When officially named by KK what will that do to the hobby ? Is it locality of the animals or appearance that will determine what they are ? Does anybody have a clue as to what the common name is going to be ? I know the scientific name but Im sworn to secrecy.

Keith

1. Are there still pure or true "Goini" out there in the wild ? It seems the criteria was Striped, patternless and high oval blotch and belly pattern plays a role as well. Does anybody catch any that look like that ? Sean would best be able to answer this as he has alot of expirience down there in the field.

Yes there are true "goini" out there. Remember though, "goini" were those kings that were described as having very little to no interband lightening but nice oval blotches. Basically, "goini" look like wide banded Eastern Kings. Like this male I caught in the ANF last year. This one was found East of the Ochlocknee River.

Your true Apalachicola Kings still exist out there as well. I have two that were found this year. This first one was found by Carl May. Pic by Pierson Hill.

And this second one was found by Pierson Hill and I. Both were found west of the Ochlocknee River. Notice the degree of interband lightening in each one. Both would be rated as C according to the system Means and Krysko used in their paper.

2. When officially named by KK what will that do to the hobby ? Is it locality of the animals or appearance that will determine what they are ? Does anybody have a clue as to what the common name is going to be ? I know the scientific name but Im sworn to secrecy.

I have no idea what the official name will do to the hobby except for the high probability that people won't use it. They'll still call it a "goini" when they don't even know what "goini" originally was described as.

I think locality will be very important but appearance will definitely determine what they are. As Eastern Kings move in and intergrade with these, you'll find more "goini" looking kings and less of the nearly patternless, non-banded(patternless), and striped individuals. I think if you go back and read the paper though, you might have an idea as to what the common name might be. Look at what they keep saying is found only in a certain area.

And I know what the scientific name will be also but like you, my lips are sealed.

That first king you posted is still a juvenile, correct? If so, isn't it possible that its interbands would lighten up as much or more than the adults posted? It will be interesting to see what happens in any case.

Van

That first king you posted is still a juvenile, correct?

I estimate he's about 3 years old now.

If so, isn't it possible that its interbands would lighten up as much or more than the adults posted? It will be interesting to see what happens in any case.

He's about 3 feet in length now and I think if any lightening were to occur, it would have done so already. Actually, I hope his interbands stay completely dark as I really like the contrast with the bands.

Do you know who is producing the true "patternless" and "stripped" L. getula from this area that is yet to be named? Very high on my wish list.
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Tim

Carl Gilmore acquired my animals which routinely produce patternless and striped neonate though mostly males. Females are generally the high olive phase. I acquired my oringinal stock form Mark Bell in 87. He had no "locality" info on them but I was able to purchase two females and an unrelated male. From these, Carl is currently holding an F1 (first generation from my perspective) patternless male and an F2 semi striped female.

I hope to produce some possibly next year. But if any come out patternless, I will be keeping those. Try contacting Len Krysko if you're looking for them. I know he had some patternless and striped individuals hatch out this year.

You might want to try Gulf Coast Reptiles in Ft. Myers, Sheila's been working with some of the nicest ones I've ever seen, she has developed the 'blaze phase' Goins. I'm pretty certain their completely sold out of balze phase for 2003's crop BUT but they should have a lot of normal looking het for blaze in the classic blotched, striped & patternless. They advertize quite a bit in Boa Classifieds but if you can't find their # I can get it for you.

I know the Goins I've bought off them in the past won't EVER turn down a meal, even in the blue.

Best of luck

Dean

Dean, See the post below on those Blaze Phase. Here's the link:

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=163660,163660

NOW WHAT EXACTLY are you getting at?? Are you assuming that the Blaze Phase is actually a Hybrid?? I think I mentioned this before but since somebody obviously never paid attention here we go again...............

Once upon a time a small Canadian Herper (that would be ME) visited his friends (that would be Chris & Sheila) in Fort Myers, we had a legnthy discussion as to how these beautuful snakes came about. It's been a 12 year project of Sheila's when these little red goins started showing up, they figured MAYBE they would be just considered a 'hypo' however they contacted Bill & Kathy Love (well respected names in the Herp circle for some 30 years) & it was then the Hypererthistic (Spelling??) was identified, in addition to that Bern Bechtel assessed these snakes, I SURE some of you know who HE is. Anyway not to get sidetracked here but when in Fort Myers I myself saw several generations of this line Sheila has been working with. Some of these creatures would warrant wearing sunglasses to look at them they has such intense color. I was quite impressed in addition to the Goins....... Chris has established the whitesided aka Ghost Everglades ratsnake, they have produced patternless black ball pythons as well as numerous other accomplisments in the Herptoculture scene. I would like to know all of you guys who are stating or insinuating that the Blaze Phase is NOT the real deal........ what exact credentials do you have in genetics to make such an assumption?? Are you guys legit Herpetologists??Geneticists?? Biologists?? Come on kids??? What is YOUR claim to fame Sean???? How many years experience have you had with workin with several generations of captive bred snakes...... specifically Goins. Or are you just some 'self proclaimed Guru' who happens to own a few Goins??? I've seen your hybrid bashing in here before so we all know your position on that & hey you know what they say about opinions....... 'opinions are like cloacas'........ & EVERYBODY has one

The way I see it is when somebody's business involves blood, sweat & tears in trying to perfect these various color morphs, then to have somebody in here start bashing it all to cow-patties you'd best have your facts straight before spilling any of these 'Devine revelations' In other words you really shouldn't say something you can't back up in court.

All I did was merely respond to a post where some individual was looking for some nice striped or patternless goins. Anyway........ thats enough time wasted in here on THIS subject, thank God I have a life outside these forums............

& to think I thought the Indigo Forum was full of Drama Queens

have a good one folks!!!

Dean

I suspect the common name will be Apalachicola Lowlands kingsnake, which is the name Bruce has used for it for years.

Kevin Enge