Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I had 3 of my boas die all within a month. One seemed as though there was some impact issues as he was an 08 and there were visual indications. The second was a 05 female, very healthy and the 3rd was an much older female that had an RI which was treated and thought to be cured.

The later two had some of the same symptoms in that they stopped eating, even when the temps were put up. They both became lethargic. They both were possibley gravid. They thinned out in the neck, chest area. Kept that region of their body in a tense narrow vertical position and the rest of their body remained relaxed. They both seemed otherwise fine until they passed during the night. They were kept together for a bit before becoming ill.

I am now worried, having read some scary posts about bacterial outbreaks that have wiped out entire collection.

Is there anything one can do to confirm if there is such a need to worry? No other anmals appear to be ill. Are my concenrs warrented?

Thanks,

Kenny
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2.2 Chondro (Aru / Sorong (Gravid) / Biak / Mix)
2.1 Eastern Indigo
1.1 Retic (Calico x Dwarf / Calico)
3.5 BCC/BCI (Peruvian / Albino / Albino Het (Gravid) / Guyana / Albino Het Snow / Anery Het Snow)
2.2 Crested Gecko
2.2 Western Hognose
1.1 Western Coachwhip
1.2 Black Racer
2.2 Ball Python (Spider / Pastel / 1.1 Het Pied)
1.3 Homo Sapiens
1.0 Pit Bull
0.1 Bull Terrier

being in veterinary medicine, i, for the most part, speak from a medicinal point of view. a couple things to consider, is, if it is still availabe, you should have a veterinarian send out some tissue and fluid samples to confirm the cause of death. another thing, is that there has been some confirmed outbreaks of bacterial, as well as viral, infections affecting nearly all, or all collections. that being said, the bad part of that, is that depending on housing set up, if the snakes that died had an infection of some kind, then your whole collection may have already been exposed. if they have been exposed, there are two options, either wait and see if any symptoms arise, or have some bloodwork done to possibly identify the source. antibiotics are good, but when the bacterium is unknown, then its a trial and error process of antibiotics. which is why a blood culture and tissue sample should be collected and sent in for a pathologist to read, to identify what type of antibiotic the bacteria is sensitive to, and resistant to, so the appropriate antibiotic therapy can be perscribed and administered
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retic is king of kings

1.0 Tiger Retic
1.0 Albino Tiger Retic
0.1 Striped Tiger Retic (het albino)
0.1 Salmon Boa
1.0 Albino Boa
0.1 False Water Cobra

Thank you all...

The animal has been disposed of. I have a call into Dr Rosskopf (for those who might know him). I am thinking that it would be best as a precautionary measure is to have bloodwork done on animals that were exposed to both animals. He has yet to call me back.

Blood work is a sure fire way to detect any protential problems?

Lucky for me, he has his lab on sight here in LA.

Thanks,
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2.2 Chondro (Aru / Sorong (Gravid) / Biak / Mix)
2.1 Eastern Indigo
1.1 Retic (Calico x Dwarf / Calico)
3.5 BCC/BCI (Peruvian / Albino / Albino Het (Gravid) / Guyana / Albino Het Snow / Anery Het Snow)
2.2 Crested Gecko
2.2 Western Hognose
1.1 Western Coachwhip
1.2 Black Racer
2.2 Ball Python (Spider / Pastel / 1.1 Het Pied)
1.3 Homo Sapiens
1.0 Pit Bull
0.1 Bull Terrier

You need necropsy and pathology reports. Probably take some
fecal samples if available for quicker testing as well.
If bacterial sepsis is to blame a possibility
exist that an antibiotic like Amakacin would
help if other animals seem possibly at risk.

A necropsy and pathology report is a must

. . . Lar M

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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

Larry is correct in that a necropsy and pathology may help identify the issue. However, bacterial cultures can be problematic concerning diagnosis of causative organisms of disease in boids. Unless it is a really uncommon or unusual species of bacterium, the culture will almost always show some species of pathogenic bacteria. More than 95% of all captive boas and pythons are already carrying the pathogenic gram negative bacteria that are the cause of the vast majority of bacterial infections in captive boids. If one of the boas in a collection has a bacterial infection, then the entire collection has already been exposed to that causative organism well before the symptoms showed. This would be primarily from previous exposure from the source it was acquired, or from simple maintenance procedures within your own collection. The reason that these organisms typically don’t cause issues is that unless the animal is physically or environmentally stressed in some manner, the organism is kept in check by the snakes immune system. The main stressors include sub-optimal temps, high or low; sub-optimal humidity, high or low; or lack of security causing nervousness and stress, etc., to name a few. A healthy, non-stressed boa will not acquire a bacterial infection from contact with an infected boa. If it does, then it is under the same, or some other stressor, that compromised the originally infected boa.

If numbers of boas in a collection are dropping from a bacterial infection, then I would be looking at some type of husbandry error that is causing a stressor to this collection. Remember that they already harbor the pathogenic bacteria, the trick is to determine what is causing the deterioration of the immune response. If the cause is from a virus however, then arresting the spread of the infection through the colony is much more difficult, and treatment options are extremely limited.

Kelly

Bingo!

They were both moved to the same enclosure due to power issues and did experience approx. 2 days of low 60's at night which I was advised by the seller was acceptable cooling temps...it's the abrupt change that probally did the first one in. There are other issues I can attribute to the second one passing as well. The other animals that remained in their original cages last 6 months seem fine and are eating and shedding well. Including the male that copulated for months with her only being removed 3 weeks ago.

The tissue test will not be taken as I was advised by the vet's office that it must be taken with in a day or two and refrigerated (not frozen). Breeding season is over and it's back to normal temps and feeding. I hope youre correct. I will make a dr visit at first sign of any probems.

Thank you!
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2.2 Chondro (Aru / Sorong (Gravid) / Biak / Mix)
2.1 Eastern Indigo
1.1 Retic (Calico x Dwarf / Calico)
3.4 BCC/BCI (Peruvian / Albino / Guyana / Albino Het Snow / Anery Het Snow)
2.2 Crested Gecko
2.2 Western Hognose
1.1 Western Coachwhip
1.2 Black Racer
2.2 Ball Python (Spider / Pastel / 1.1 Het Pied)
1.3 Homo Sapiens
1.0 Pit Bull
0.1 Bull Terrier

ahhh, its amazing how enclosure set ups, can make or break a reptile. low 60's is pretty low, im no expert with boas, but in retics, its too low.
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retic is king of kings

1.0 Tiger Retic
1.0 Albino Tiger Retic
0.1 Striped Tiger Retic (het albino)
0.1 Salmon Boa
1.0 Albino Boa
0.1 False Water Cobra

a blood or tissue sample culture, is used many times as a rule out diagnosis, to help eliminated differential diagnosis that may be in question. we usually only send out cultures, if entire litters of puppies or kittens, or colonies of snakes and/or lizards are taken out. depending on which lab and panel your vet uses, you can usually test for a variety of pathogenic presence. sure some of the common "carrying" pathogens may show up, but it can be beneficial if something shows up as very uncommon and goes along with signs and symptoms observed by the keeper at anytime while the snakes were alive. if such pathogens are present, then it could and probably would be beneficial to see what the pathogen (assuming bacteria) is sensitive and resistant to, and treat the remaining snakes, if exposure is probable and/or confirmed
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retic is king of kings

1.0 Tiger Retic
1.0 Albino Tiger Retic
0.1 Striped Tiger Retic (het albino)
0.1 Salmon Boa
1.0 Albino Boa
0.1 False Water Cobra

I ran into a Bacterial sepsis problem that I'm still convinced was related to the particular rats I fed those particular Boas.The vet did fecal samples testing and also sent out pathology.
Test came back my vet said exactly what you stated Kelly. That all of these bacteria exist within the Boa already. To pin point the probable bacteria they went by unusually elevated numbers of bacteria.So those bacteria showing a much higher count than typical were considered the guilty parties. Of course there was no proof the rats were to blame except circumstantial type evidence and basic common sense.I believe it boiled down to a high fat issue in the rats causing a digestive failure leading to a bacteria bloom.All my Boas are clean and non stressed and each exposed to similar conditions for years. The only out of place issue was the type of rat fed to the Boas in question. In each case they were multi colored / Black hooded type rats(typically I usually only feed white rats and never anything huge or triple xxxx in size).These multi colored / Black hooded type rats Probably specifically genetically raised for use in Diabetes experiments,Hyper tension experiments,other obesity and heart related testing.
This seems to be the only logical answer in my particular
case,everything was considered
I'm not saying I can prove it was the rats but process of
elimination and some research left me with this answer.

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

i usually relate the already present species of bacteria in boas, kind of like mange in dogs. all dogs are born with and have mange, its a matter of an overgrowth due to an immune mediated compromise, that you see physical signs of the mange flare up, and requires topical and/or oral medication, depending on if its needed systemically
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retic is king of kings

1.0 Tiger Retic
1.0 Albino Tiger Retic
0.1 Striped Tiger Retic (het albino)
0.1 Salmon Boa
1.0 Albino Boa
0.1 False Water Cobra