Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I feel like getting this off my chest.

I invested heavily into jungles and arabesques only a few years ago to see how they have dwindled in value tremendously over the past years.

IT is extremely irresponsible for big breeders who produce 70 litters per year to kill the market for that which they are marketing which many have bought into with hopes of regaining their investment and some.

I understand its their business to make money, but IMO, knowlingly doing this and charging as much as has been charged to us innocent naive buyers is nothing less than bad business and immoral to say the least.

I think i understand what you're saying but I don't necessarily agree with it. Forgive me if I am totally off base because for one morphs are not my thing. Also I have never bought an animal that I didn't want regardless of what kind of financial gain it might bring me in the future. What confuses me about posts like this is lack of research on marketing trends dealing with morphs, mutations what have you. Like I said not my thing but I have been keeping Snakes for over twenty years, through my teens I worked at an Exotic pet shop, and worked professionally at the Reptile House at the National Zoo. So I do have experience and I'm not just blowing smoke. I think back when albino burmese were introduced and how expensive they were and to see how the price dropped drastically with them. I don't see how any other morph is different. Some might produce less and the price might drop at a slower rate but the price is going to drop no matter what. It all depends on how fast. It has been said before buy what you like not what you can profit from it. Because unless you have the founding group or its offspring of a new morph chances are you not going to make a huge financial gain when it's time for your animals to reproduce. I don't think big breeders selling animals should state whether or not an animal is a good financial investment. If they did then they would be wrong and I would agree with you. But I have never seen this and I doubt when you sell your offspring that you would have a sign above them stating "Best investment, Make your Money Back and More." LOL I know that is a little overboard but I don't know what else to say because the facts are there and have always been there. Well I think I have made my point if I am totally off base please let me know. I hope I didn't offend anyone because that was not my intention and if I did please let me know. i wish everyone the best as we are faced with much bigger problems right now.
-----
Charles Koutris

While I sympathize with your position I respectfully disagree. If you were in the "big breeder" position and had the animals they have what would you do? Breed what made sense to breed at the time to produce animals you could sell and turn a profit from. What would you have them do, wait and hold off breeding until everyone else was ready to breed them as well? The reality is the big boys are in this not just as a hobby but as a means of making a living. Not saying they do not care for their animals or enjoy them any less than the hobyists. Just that when all is said and done, they need to sell enough to not only make expenses but to pay mortgages and put food on the table etc. clearly is a lot easier to do this by selling animals with price tags in excess of $1000.

I myself have many animals, most of which are currently selling for less than what I originally paid for them. That is the nature of the morph market. Eventually the morphs will be not that much more expensive than normals.

If you can pay off your breeder pair (1.1 animals) with one decent size litter you have done well.

If you really want to turn a relative profit, stick with a normal type snake where the value does not go down significantly from year to year. There you can get a 10x return on investment with a 20 baby litter.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

I did read everyones reply but I found this one that I agree on as well. I myself dont think its the big breeders bringing down the cost but the breeder that bought one male hoping to turn a quick profit. Alot of people dont have the money space and time to hold on to 20 babies for long periods of time and just dump them as fast as they can. This is what hurts your chances of really making what you paid. Also you have to look at it in a way that it takes your Male a few years to get up to size. You cant expect the market to stay the same within that time. If you really want to make money I suggest you find a morph that just came out and caugh up the 40-100k that the big breeders are caughing up. Eventually everything you buy will pay for itself.
-----
Chris Farmer
Explicit Reptiles
www.ExplicitReptiles.com

When breeding morphs you have to get in early on a project or just do it because you really like them. The rapid drop in prices of morphs is the nature of the beast.
While there are people breeding morphs who just like them, morphs draw the largest number of folks just in it for the money. The newest morphs are generally where the big money is.

-----
Randy Whittington

This tends to happen more with dominant morphs rather than with recessive, because they can be made quicker and with less investment - meaning that you don't have to buy a pair to make more. The prices remain higher until enough people have breeder sized animals, and then theirs so much competition that the prices start falling. I remember people spending lots on Hypos, then when they became breeder-sizes, the prices started going down quick for the babies.
You're best bet to hold value is to breed them to other morph combos, or selectively breed them for premium looking examples. The Jungles that Steve (SDI) produces are terrific specimens from great selections, and still hold a good price.
-----
Snake room janitor

Lot of things have been said.

I can see why you - just like many other morph lovers -are frustrated. Altough, I've been always telling that investment into reptiles to make profit is...well...more than risky. This is like playing an MLM game. If you start early (meaning you have a founder stock) you can make a good profit. When you don't, you will be only a piece of puzzle (one of many breeders) with much less profit.
Don't take this as an offend, but breeding boas would be the last resort, if I would invest into something. There are simply too many risks. If you are just thinking of, possible illnesses, breeding failures and general expenses, you know what I mean.

Best wishes.

I'm the person that sold B. Clark his first Albino Burmese Python. Both he and I plus many others made a LOT of money on that project. HOWEVER, WE WOULD HAVE DONE IT ANYWAY BECAUSE WE LOVED THE SNAKE. This business of breeding rare herps has always been like a pyramid and always will be. It's based clearly on supply and demand. If your into breeding herps solely for financial gain get of of the business now. It's like the stock market be in it for the long haul or not at all!!!! I've been lucky enough to have done this as a proffession for close to 40 years. It started as a hobby and I've lived a dream as I still love doing it. Money was never the first consideration and still isn't. If you consistently breed your snakes year after year and add new stock as many do you will make money. If you mortgaged your house to buy 2 pairs of snakes expecting to retire it's NOT sound business planning in the first place. I'm the first person ever to breed albino Green Iguanas. This year will be my third year of production and the price is already a $1,000 less and NO ONE ELSE HAS STILL EVER BRED THEM BUT ME. I'm trying over time to produce over 1,000 albino's annually and only sell them for $300 ea. That's right $300 ea because then my customer base will be huge. That's what will happen to every morph in every snake as numbers increase the price will go down. I'm sorry you didn't realize it before you purchased your snakes but if you had looked the evidence was clearly there. It's not about greed and big breeders are no more "greedier" than anyone there just doing what they can and should do....

-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

"I'm the first person ever to breed albino Green Iguanas."

"NO ONE ELSE HAS STILL EVER BRED THEM BUT ME."

That must feel as good as money as well if you ask me.

-----
Thanks,

Frank Roberts

A person should never make ANY investment until they have a basic understanding of supply and demand, or are under the guidance of someone that does.

A basic understanding of supply and demand would have guided everyone away from 3rd, 4th, or later generations of CB single-morph snakes as INVESTMENTS.

jb
-----
Jonathan Brady
*You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.*

I am not a big breeder, and I understand your frustration. I would say that most big breeders have felt your pain several times over. Most big breeders have taken very big risks financially, and must be able to make a living. The fact of the matter is we are in a supply and demand world, and I would argue that most big breeders are able to get moe $$ from their animals , because of reputation in the business. I would suggest that we all roll with the punches in this game. To make it in this world we have to earn our stripes. I know that when I sell snakes, almost no one says I will take you animal at your listed price. Most will try and hammer down the price.I know first hand that the prices will drop on all of my investments. I believe the 1st plasma televisions were several thousands of dollars just a few yrs ago. You can get the same tv (only better) for a much lower cost. Breed your animals and sell at the market. Thats just the way capitalism goes.

Your right on about big financial risk involved with getting "first" new herps. When the albino Burms were available they cost be $21,000 for 2 males and one female in Bangkok, Thailand. There was no way to see pics etc as this was in 1981. I just had to take someone from 12,000 miles aways word that he had them and they were healthy. Then there was the minor problem of $21,000 of which I had to pay half up front. I had to take a second mortgage on my house to make that happen as $21,000 was a LOT of money in 1981. You can rest assured I sold them, got paid a $10,000 stud fee on one male while owning half of the progeny of the first years production, bred them and did everything I knew how to recoup my investment. The most important thing to me however was getting my hands on these beautiful snakes. It all worked out well over time but it was a HUGE RISK....thanks
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

to forget capitalism, market conditions, supply and demand, and see if we can create our own "bailout" for the reptile industry!

1% of each breeder's sales could go into a pot. Then, when someone wants to get out of breeding after seeing the market value of their large investment has dropped, we can give them some of that money to entice them to stay in it!

That would stimulate the reptile economy by encouraging more people to get in in the first place, since the risk of investing no longer would exist!

Jeremy

ps...read up on hr669, b/c if this passes, this becomes a mute point! go to ralph's forum below for more info
http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14489

I just wanted to say something as well. I understand BOTH of your
points because there is some people who make a TON of money, and
some that make almost nothing. The RISK was a very good thing to
key on in this thread. I myself have never bred until last year
and still have had nothing. I would like to have these dreams of
making new morphs and such, and 1 day I will, but I HAVE to have
the BEST KNOWLEDGE of Boas and whatnot before I put a animal I
love into MY unknowingly harms way. I have talked to Tom before
for like an hour and that is the dude I want to get my knowledge
from. He explained so many things that it made my head spin! And
the life story he told me is ALL OF A HUMBLE PERSON. I am in this
for the Boas, not the money. Maybe one day I will have a career
out of this, but we will see. I just like holding my Boas and
doing research on them to better my mindframe on them.

Just a risky business, but if you think of these animals as pets
and not investments, and one day they have babies... Its a BONUS!

my arabesque are some of the most beautiful adult animals I own, and the jungle babeis I got this year are invaluable to me and my breeding hobby.
I am excited about breeding them, last year I bred a 06 jungle that poss het al;bino to a red group, the jungle cost me $3000 in 06/07, and I made around $3000 from his babies, next year he breeds would be a little profit. I think you have to breed something "out of the box" ie new combo if your primary goal is the cash.
Brian Logan

This is the risk you take, when investing in animals. You just have to make sure you do your homework, and hope you have placed yourself in a position to prosper.

I don't see how it is the fault of the bigger breeder though. That is kind of a cop-out to blame someone else. /$0.02
-----
Chris & Alliey
www.bloodyleopard.com
E-mail Us

These are a few of the questions I ALWAYS ask before I invest in a new or newer morph. I say invest because that is what the breeder is claiming.

1. How many have been produced?
2. What does the breeder project to hit the market from their facility in the next year, two years…etc?
3. What combinations have been made?
4. What are the breeder’s plans for the morph?
5. Has there been any inbreeding?
6. Have any health problems been noticed in the litter(s)?
7. What were the litter stats?
8. If the morph is new enough I even try to find out who else is working with them so I have some idea of how well the project will be managed.

I agree with everyone about if you take the risk you deserve to reap the return. If all or even most of the above questions are answered favorably the morph will still command a high price. The original breeder will place a price tag on the project as a statement of the success that is projected. If the next person on the pyramid comes along and is paying into a multi-thousand dollar project there is a LOT of risk as well. Therefore, hopefully some profit will be realized for the next person, and so on.

Every time this topic comes up the argument is about “the risk” and “the love of the animals”. This only addresses the beginning and end of the market cycle. What is always left out is the middle. In my experience, which is limited in comparison to many people on this forum, some who have taken the initial risk think they have a license to disregard ethics. What I mean is when an animal is for sale I expect to be told the truth about it especially when I ask, regardless of the price tag. When ALL of the above stated questions have been answered favorably, and directly by the breeder, I, like many others become upset when 60 plus litters hit the market the following year that were not disclosed when answering question two. Or when I go to a show two years in a row following my purchase and that particular breeder has a large percentage of the same morph with one eye or that are a bit “goofy” at greatly discounted prices (so much for out crossing claims). Or when two of five boas purchased die at an early age with no apparent reason that can be diagnosed by a veterinarian other than a weak snake possibly from inbreeding. By the way my vet has been breeding reptiles for over fifteen years.

Then in the case of the motley and jungle morphs, the word is sent directly from the top that more out crossing will make the supers strong enough to produce viable litters. Wait a minute, outcrossing, what happened to the answer to question five. In the mean time, everyone who has invested in the middle portion of the market is left asking the question that started this thread. To say “don’t worry about it, you should do it for the love of the animals, not profit” is just a blanket statement that distracts people from the poorly managed market cycle and quite often poor ethics. Furthermore, who would invest any money in reptiles if they weren’t “doing it for the love of the animals”. To say it is the little guy’s fault for being a sucker is quite often a narrow point of view.

In the end there isn’t much you can do about it other than work with people you trust. If I had a dollar for every time I have said for the most part you get what you pay for I would be a rich man.

A little off topic but you will see viable litters produced from super motleys and super jungles.

Steve - sdi

You can't call someone "greedy" because they are trying to make money. So you invested alot of money into your boas to....? What would that make you?

.

Steve out of all people would not be greedy. Everybody wants to
make money, thats fine, but when people have tons of the same
product..... just not to logical. I understand where everyone is
coming from. Now why is this starting to become a yelling (or
soon to be yelling) match? This always starts to happen in a
convo on the internet.
Lets all simmer down and lets talk about all the thigs we love...
.... BOAS

responding to poster.