Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi all. I am not new to keeping cornsnakes, but have never had the unfortunate experience of a repeat regurgitator. I have an '08 snow corn which I bought from ***co, mainly because it was obviously feeding well, and was a good price. It is small, so was either a late '08 or fed a maintenance diet.

It ate 5 times over about 3 weeks, all appropriate sized prey, f/t, then started regurging. It regurged 3 times before I realized the importance of waiting 10 days before feeding again. I then waited 10 days and offered it a pinky head. Left it in overnight, but the snake refused it. So I offered a live pinky which it ate immediately. Then regurged 2 days later.

Any suggestions besides waiting another 10 days and trying another pinky head?

Thanks.
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Kent

that your snake may be in serious trouble. The prognosis is not very good after 3 or 4 regurges in a short time. The only good thing is that it ate 5 times without a regurge, so should have some reserves.

No more whole pinks, at least not for a long time! It is better to have no food at all than to have a regurge. I would suggest a few rounds of Nutri Bac probiotic (works like active yogurt cultures do for people with digestive problems).

If you can't get the snake to eat just a pinkie head after another week's fast, then your only hope is probably a liquid diet for a while. Egg yolk via eye dropper or tube may help. Use about 1 - 2 ccs per feeding if it is a small baby, more for a larger baby. But give it separately from the Nutri Bac, which you can mix with water and give via eyedropper or syringe / tube as well.

Good luck!

Thanks for the quick response, Kathy. Assuming I can find Nutribac locally, should I give it right away or wait a week from the last regurg?

If I can't find it locally, who do you suggest might have it online?

I almost hate to admit this, but I had it housed with a slightly larger baby. I have housed pairs of young snakes together many times, without problems. Maybe it was stressed by this pairing, although it ate 5 times before regurging. The larger baby also regurged, but only once, and has eaten several times since. I separated them as soon as the first regurg happened.

I know what you think, Jimmy!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks.
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Kent

better than others, just like people! Sometimes they are handling the stress of a cage mate pretty well, but just one more stress (such as a large meal, temps a little too hot or cold, or too much activity near the cage, or ???) is just the thing that puts them "over the edge" and results in a regurge, or succumbing to an infection or disease that they could normally fight off if they were less stressed. It always works out fine...until SOMETHING happens that causes a problem.

If you can find Nutri Bac locally, give it immediately. I would suggest giving it every 3 days or so (via syringe or tube), on an empty stomach, for about 3 times. Then give it once per week, in between feedings, for the next month or two. It is a food supplement, not a medicine, so there is no "real" dose. It is just what I have found works for me.

If you can't find it locally, I sell it on my website, and so do a few other online reptile supply dealers. But it is still unknown to most pet shops, and even to many reptile dealers.

Ok. Thanks.
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Kent

All that perfect advice from Kathy is worthless if cage temperature and "hide" conditions are not optimal. This scenario is akin to giving all the best medications to a dying human, but keeping him/her in a refrigerated room during his/her recovery process. The first step to problem solving is identifying the problem. It's highly probable that the first regurgitation was caused by improper cage temperature or "hide" placement.
South Mountain Reptiles

Man, I just gotta stop reading forums before I've had my morning Mt. Dew. That subject line was R U D E ! I recall trying to put something in that subject line that would get attention, but what I ended up with sure looks rude, now that I read it with caffiene in my veins. Sorry, folks. Sorry, Kathy. As I said, your advice was SPOT-ON, but as we know, the puking is a symptom of the REAL problem, and that problem is often temperature related. Therefore, the first thing you must do is stabilize temperatures in the cage. Only then will it respond to whatever therapies you practice.

Good luck,

Don
South Mountain Reptiles

Yeah that was my first reaction too. That's ok. I'm not all there before my morning coffee either.

I am pretty certain the temp was and is ok. Approx 85 at warm end to room temp at cool end. Pleny of places to hide.

I'll be trying nutibac for sure before I try to feed it again.

Thanks.
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Kent

Make sure the snake is spending 75 % of the daytime hours INSIDE that hide, and take a temp reading INSIDE that hide. If it's 80F-85F, and the snake is spending most of the daytime hours IN it, temperature is not the problem. Just know that a thermometer even two inches away from the hide, can read up to ten degrees hotter or cooler. We only need to know what the snake's body temperature is, and that is achieved where they hide. Not out in the open.

Good luck,

Don
South Mountain Reptiles

Although a first regurge CAN happen just because of one indiscretion in feeding too large of a meal, or a one time temp spike or drop, or handling too much, too soon, etc,..it certainly does no good to treat the regurge symptoms if the actual cause of the first regurge continues to be a problem.

Of course, ongoing problems might not be a factor in EVERY case, but keepers with regurgers who THINK their temps are perfect should take Don's advice and measure with an actual thermometer INSIDE the hide. You might be surprised at the results!

I would like to market a hide in various sizes that is shaped like a long, skinny log. It would be long enough for one side to sit on the heated end of the cage, and the other side would stretch away, towards the cooler side. It would have a thermometer embedded into it, with the probe inside the hide and the readout outside the hide. Maybe the fancy "upscale" hides would even have TWO thermometers to read - one on each end of the hide! And I would make it illegal for a pet shop to sell a little "stick onto the glass" thermometer to anyone keeping reptiles, lol!

Wanna go halves on it, Don? It could be Don and Kathy's Perfect Reptile Nest, haha!

In my book (that hasn't been printed yet), I show hides like that which are PVC pipe sections, bisected lengthwise to fit diagonally along the bottom of the cage -- from corner to opposite corner. I presented the design concept to a pet supply distributor, with the suggestion that they mold it out of plastic to look like a log section. Never did see anyone make them though. Their loss, eh?

Don
South Mountain Reptiles

The log hide like you both described is a good idea. I'd use it.

The way I do it is to scotch tape the temp probe and the probe from the rheostat side by side on the bottom glass (inside the tank), directly above the UTH. That way I can adjust the temp as needed. And that is where I place one of the hides. Another hide is at the other end of the cage so the snakes can choose. The snake also go under the paper towel, or burrow in the aspen.

I do this in all of my snake cages with very good results.

I think the big lesson learned from all this is how to properly treat a snake with regurg syndrome.
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Kent

What is your snake's body temperature? Putting the probe for your thermostat next to the heat source is like putting the thermostat for your home out on your front porch. You want to control temperatures where you will benefit. Your snake will not benefit from temperatures where it refuses to stay. The temperature on the glass of your cage is very different from that of the snake, so you must move the probe. The bottom line is that we don't care what the cage temperature is. We only care what the snake's body temperature is. If the location where you are reading temperatures reads 81F-85F, you have the false impression that your snake's body temperature is the same. This is not only incorrect, but it could be what's killing your snake. Usually after three pukes, yound corns cannot be saved, so I suggest you discover what your snake's body temperature is, as quickly as possible. Not what the temperature is on the bottom glass of the cage. Until you provide a dark hide that is 81F to 85F (and until the snake spends most of the daytime hours IN that hide), nothing you do will save this snake's life.

Don
South Mountain Reptiles

This should be near the beginning of every corn snake care sheet ever written!

Kathy-Don
Do you have better results with nutriabc on an empty stomach? I've always coated or stuffed the reduced size food item with it, tail etc. thinking it would disturb a stressed one a little less. Interesting. Love the stuff, but never mind learning or increasing the survival rate.
thanks... Jeff Serrao

If it is a regurging snake, I give it via tube with water, on an empty stomach. If it is just as a preventative on new, hatchling, or stressed snakes, I give it on or in food items.

I feel that the stress of a quick tubing of NB lasts only a few seconds. Then the little NB "bugs" can get to work coating the stomach, without the possibility of a regurge losing all of the NB as well. After talking with a vet friend who breeds snakes, I think that food in the stomach of a regurging snake may go more towards feeding pathogenic bacteria and yeast, than to the snake itself. So I feel a couple of doses of NB without food might help to balance things out.

I have no scientific proof of any of this, but it seems logical, and works for me.

thanks for the reply. good rational

...haha!!

I have thought about that type of design for years, but never did anything about it (except to have about 100 pieces of PVC cut in half length wise for some of my baby keepers - but not with a thermometer in them). You would think that with all of the expensive, useless, stuff that is being sold, somebody would find it worthwhile to manufacture something that every breeder would be happy to recommend to their customers.

Maybe one of us will get around to getting it done ourselves, someday...