Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Just a report from today. I was on my way to the monitor building and heard a ruckess. A large adult male cottontail rabbit was flipping and spinning madly. I noticed that there was a snake attacked to its side(hahahahahahahaha). The rabbit got loose and much to my surprise, the rabbit did not run off, but circle the pallet that the snake was under(and anchored too during the fight)

I couldn't tell if it as a gophersnake or a rattlesnake, so I froze and waited to see what will happen. After the rabbit left, I looked under the pallet and saw a aprox 4foot gophersnake.

This is typical of what we see, they strike first and ask questions latter. It did look like that snake was going to get twisted in two.

These types of events always make we think about why so many captive snakes do not have this type of feeding response. Cheers

At certain times of the year my snakes are crazy as can be with feeding responses.
I have had Kings fly out of a container in a rack 5 foot off the ground come smashing to the ground as if it was not a big deal still chasing me....with their mouths open the entire time.
I had so many close calls so far this season.... almost had a few attached to my forehead too.
My Speckled Kings have been the worst...then the San Diego Gophers and the Brooksi....and in my opinion this is not a good thing....it's a GREAT thing.
Let's not forget I feed mostly everything frozen thawed and still they're attacking like maniacs. Matter of fact lately I have been just peeking in cages to spot clean and look at females and they're still charging me...
I love my snakes.... to say they're interesting captives is an understatement.
Tom Stevens
PS haven't been bit by an adult snake yet this season....yes I know I just jinxed myself haha!
Tell me you're coming to Daytona this year!
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TomsSnakes.com

I had my black pine chase me across the room once, not that he could hurt me, but he came flying out so fast after the rat on the hemostats I naturally back up and well he kept coming and I kept backing up, laughing my butt off the whole time....lol
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Thanks,

Frank Roberts

Tom I only have 6 snakes and make a point of handling them all during the week after they've digested. When they are older regardless of how tame they are should I expect the MBK's and Brooksi to have this feeding response?

I really don't have an answer for that?
I know a few girls bought MBKs from me and they occasionally post about how they're doing and I recall them saying theirs were very docile. I have sold many to people just for pets.

You have to remember I have at least 200 snakes here at all times and I mostly handle babies. I just don't do much with the adults other than care for them and snap pix once in a while.

I do not think you should expect them to become aggressive, but I always take it as a sign they're thriving when they act like that. With all my snakes...if I want to hold them I do, regardless of how aggressive they seem. Usually once they realize they're not being fed they just shut off and hang out.

I almost prefer them flying at me going insane as opposed to some Pits who totally stand their ground and won't back down at all. The thing is even with them... in most cases you pick em up and they just chill out haha!
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Thanks Tom, I was just curious because I try to handle my brooksi alot. My female hypo actually comes out of hiding if she hears me removing her clips. Only time I've been bit was when I wasn't feeding her enough otherwise she along with my hypo flame and anery are very tame. by the way the MBK's I have are yours, a guy in my area bought them off you in daytona and then decided to go in another direction. Once i heard they were yours I scooped them up. Male is great, Female won't let me hold her without the tail thumping and going to bathroom on me

I think you're onto something with the seasonal aspect to this.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Here's a nice feeding response--saw this eastern legless lizard crawling out from under my shed. Tempted him out of his retreat with a cricket. Needless to say, he was after bigger prey. That little sucker could bite! He did get his cricket afterward, though he seemed a bit disappointed. Florida ROCKS!

.
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“Spring is nature's way of saying, "Let's party!"”
Robin Williams

Doug L

well...bullsnakes are good at that....I know my friend's aren't afraid to catch him by the hand ,arm..and hold on for awhile...and he has no cottontail,bald even, and weighs around 260 pounds......LOL........they are almost as crazy as brooksi......I've seen them grab the plated legs on a table and hold on...three times in a row...(reflection in the metal legs)....fearless.....

good stuff.....scared rabbit.....could have been worse for him....

...good luck.......
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......

..J Yohe ....

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Well, maybe not a feeding response, but a defensive measure.

Kerby...

Perhaps becasue they are fed too much! LOL
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Yeah we're to assume that when captives act that way they're starving,right?
A response is just that I think. A response. Some responses are from conditioning,huh?
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Yeah I don't think they learn any real need to grab pre killed prey before it gets away.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

We all know healthy snakes have the best feeding response. Of course thats the reason for that snake attempting to take that large rabbit. yes, its healthy and it has the conditions it needs to work its full range of abilities.

Which is the very point I am constantly trying to make. Snakes are reptiles and are constricted(pun) by their enviornmental conditions. If the conditions are lacking, their abilities are also lacking. An example is temps, we all know if you drop the temps they stop feeding. Drop them enough and they stop completely, drop them a little, and that only hinders their ability.

The problem is, most do not go the other way, give them higher options and they can INCREASE their abilities. This concept is something that is lost with captive husbandry. In many cases, even the best here do not offer that as advice to those who have "timid" snakes(feeding).

My biggist "burr in the saddle here" is when someone asks are a poor feeding snake, the mose common answer is feed it frozen, feed it live, feed it in a butter cup, etc. Not question the conditions and offer more supportive conditions. I.E. a wider range of temps.

ALso you know very well that healthy snakes under supportive conditions that are fed frozen thawed, will attack and constrict that dead prey. Those same snakes will also fly out of the cage in an attempt to get to food. haven't you ever seen that? Cheers

"ALso you know very well that healthy snakes under supportive conditions that are fed frozen thawed, will attack and constrict that dead prey. Those same snakes will also fly out of the cage in an attempt to get to food. haven't you ever seen that?"

Yes, and I’ve also seen them grab each other under the same circumstances so you tell me is this an indication that they are starving or just healthy and well supported?
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Why do you constantly switch and change the base direction of threads???????

YES, when we have working pairs, that is, pairs that live, feed, grow together, and yessssss, the main reason "accidents" occur is, They are starved or neglected which leads to extreme hunger.

Of course individuals that do not "know" eachother,or are kept/raised in solitary conditions, can and will consume eachother, they do so, because they RECOGNIZE their new cagemates as prey and conspecifics. How easy is that to understand?

The fact that many here, including me, keep and have kept pairs and GROUPS of kings together and even feed that together, WITHOUT PROBLEM, makes all your arguements null and void. The problem becomes, YOU do not understand how these snakes work, or you would not have a problem either. Again, something very easy to understand.

The real point here is, ITs your problem, its something YOUR missing, not something I and others are missing. Again, we practice(for decades) what you say cannot be done or at least something you cannot do. So its you that is not understanding the animals. The fact that we do and have done clearly makes it your lack of knowledge and not ours.

You see, I do not do anything to these kingsnakes to get them to live in pairs/groups, EXCEPT show them some respect and allow them the ability to learn. You know, to let them bond to other kings, such simple practices as, raising them in groups so they understand that other kings are the same as them. OR, introducing them and keeping them together in the fall so its not a SHOCK in the spring. For snakes that are not raised with other kings. Heck, it doesn't even have to be the same individual. They just have to learn to get along. AND THEY DO.

No offense sir, but this type of practice is done with so many other animals, EVEN our pet dogs, IF you want them to get along well with other dogs, you need to socialize them with other dogs and that is best done when young. If you want them to be people dogs, you socialize them with people, again best done when young. Heck, same with birds, mice, or rats, or crickets or lizards, or humans, or aliens, or pencils, even erasers. Cheers

I still say what you are observing all around is conditioning pure and simple. Most captive snakes with lack luster feeding responces have simply never been conditioned to react otherwise for risk of loosing a potential meal. You can't compare wild herps to fat cage lazy captive ones.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

hmmmmmmmm nope, In nature they PICK the temps they need and when they need them.

In captivity, they are mostly told what they are suppose to use and they use THAT to the best of their ability.

Hmmmmmmmm "ability" the snakes have ability.

To me this is SOOOOOOOO simple, in fact, it may be way to simple for your intelligent complicated mind. If you cool them, they stop feeding, if you want them to feed, you warm them up. Then you stop because its written that a middle temp is ok. So you keep them in averages. Average winter temp, average summer temp. The problem is, snakes do not use averages, they create them by picking from many different temps to suit their needs.

Oh well, again, this must be to simple for you. You can test it you know. We not only record this in nature, but we test it in captivity.

There is one small key to this working right. you must understand, they start with a base temp thats cool(60F to 70F is good) then pick hotter temps if needed and secure. Ok, that may be a little complicated, naw its simple, even I can understand this. Cheers

Thermal ecology is only simple if you apply a basic rudimentary understanding to an out of context situation (ie to captive reptiles). Your philosophy of heat it, feed it and breed it may help produce the "beans" out of your stock but it is hardly the unified theory of herpetoculture.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Possibly but the over complicated equation used in herpetology to explain thermoregulatory behavior has not led to the production of "beans". And provides me with few citations to see it as credible when applied to actual animals. The variables in the equation seem to be irrelevant and out of context for many animals.

If your equation does not work with captive reptiles and Frank's MAY not work with wild reptiles but we can see actual tangible evidence of his theory working what are we to believe. Don't just try to discredit him with "it's over your head" state how reptiles use temps differently than what he proposes and how you came to that conclusion. I'd like to see repeated results. Frank sure has provided that in captivity and documented thermoregulatory behavior in wild herps for decades.

"Possibly but the over complicated equation used in herpetology to explain thermoregulatory behavior has not led to the production of "beans". And provides me with few citations to see it as credible when applied to actual animals. The variables in the equation seem to be irrelevant and out of context for many animals."

The simple take presented another way is just this, snakes kept at higher temps can digest more food more quickly and produce more beans. That is not to say that after you account for your utilization of all other inputs (space, utility costs, feed) that you were any more effective or efficient than utilizing a smaller more average temp range and more modest feeding schedule. Breeding the "beans" out of stock is "a" measure of success not "the" measure of it.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Tony,
I just feed the heck out of them (Floridakings0 and I don't even watch who takes what meal. They seem to know how to take turns. I just throw 4-5 chicks into a cage and move on to the hundreds of other cages. Never had a problem.

The only time I worry is when i have a new male in with a female. But then it is breeding season and the males tend to get along with their mates even if they are newly introduced.

I think I would go nuts putting males in with females and then having to remove them. Too much work.
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Signature edited

Strike first and ask questions later that is.

Most do not have to have that type of response, I think. Right? A dead dinner offering throughout the life of an animal may not elicit a barrel roll of a response after time, I think.
Wild vs. captive may be somewhat like apples vs. oranges in some instances.
Do you think that every wild snake would also react that way to a passing meal? Perhaps.
That behavior, in that instance, did not serve the predator well, or did it?
Will he now learn not to bite off more than he can chew, so to speak?
What can be learned from it?
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

i have noticed that if you buy from store they are dummbed down as the stores just put the food items in the enclosure.

Take my brooksi for example when i first got him he didnt have a clue how to strike he would just come and put his mouth round the prey item and take it away now i have him taking off tongs with a big strike and even sometimes constriction.

My bull snake however as i had him from hatchling so have trained him to strike he strikes eveytime but never constricts. and my female bull is dummbed down as pet shop bought 2 years old and i have to put the mouse right in front of her.
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Cheesemonkey

>>Just a report from today. I was on my way to the monitor building and heard a ruckess. A large adult male cottontail rabbit was flipping and spinning madly. I noticed that there was a snake attacked to its side(hahahahahahahaha). The rabbit got loose and much to my surprise, the rabbit did not run off, but circle the pallet that the snake was under(and anchored too during the fight)
>>
>> I couldn't tell if it as a gophersnake or a rattlesnake, so I froze and waited to see what will happen. After the rabbit left, I looked under the pallet and saw a aprox 4foot gophersnake.
>>
>> This is typical of what we see, they strike first and ask questions latter. It did look like that snake was going to get twisted in two.
>>
>> These types of events always make we think about why so many captive snakes do not have this type of feeding response. Cheers

Its interesting my boas and pythons 95% of the time will strike and constrict there prey even though it was F/T, temp or time of the year doesn't seem to effect this food response. The greatest food response in any snake that I have owned would be my female Burmese python she was an absolute NUT when it came to feed time.

My kings are another story, my cal kings will come out of the cage waiting for there meal I would say 70% of the time and typically don't constrict maybe 40% of the time they will unless of course I make the animal struggle then they tend to pin it down or toss a few coils around the prey item. My milks once they are "starved" have been off feed for more then a week (due to vacation) typically have a very aggressive food response but rarely coil the food item, after brumation a few of my milks would coil but now they are back to taking the prey item and consuming it without any constriction.

With everyone of my animals the more I move the prey item the harder they constrict.

In the wild I have observed an adult black rat eating a dead sparrow. The interesting thing was the sparrow wasn't killed by the snake, it was killed by me the day before and I happen to notice the next day the snake feeding on this dead animal, this was when I started feeding my snakes and every snake since prekilled items 20 years ago.. This male was a pair of black rats that I caught yearly in the same location for almost 4 years. I also feed them pre-killed rodents and after time they started to feed less aggressive.
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Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."