Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Been trying the side-heat method instead of bottom heat. Glass tank with a heat pad mounted to the side, then rock "leaners" layered against the cage wall.

You can barely see a hint of the red coil of the snake in there, I should have moved the stupid plant. If I try to open the tank lid, the snakes disappear into the crevice or substrate, so I have to take pics from outside the tank.

I let the heat pad get nice and toasty, like 95 deg, and the snakes use it. This snake is going opaque, and his whole body was smashed against the heat pad when I came in this morning. Usually it is just part of his body, or he sits under a nearby leaner rock not against the heater, or else inbetween both.

Trying this with rosyboas too. So far so good.

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Mark

Mark,

What is the benefit of doing this?

~ Mike Russo

Hes learning about snakes. They have many methods of thermoregulating. Of course moving up and down is one, and back and forth is another. With side heat, you can do both.

In this case, he is trying to duplicate what he sees wild snakes doing(WHATS IN YOUR CRACK) hahahahahahahahahaha

I would hope he takes that a lot farther. That is, use much larger stacks and a wider range of temps. As in, the top areas getting too hot(like nature) and the snake can pick from a range of temps by moving up and down in a series of cracks.

In this case, hes not doing anything different then bottom heat, its the same but on the side.

If he provides a range of crack temps, then he can see the snake move from temp to temp to accomadate its needs.

But YES, he is getting it right.

There are other reasons to keep snakes then treating them like cards(morphs) There is joy and entertainment in actually learning and working with the living snakes. Cheers

Your correct, it's certainly not a bad thing to try out new stuff. And, now that i think about it i also have 3 Reptile basics racks with back heat. But, I never really though of it as an advantage to have back heat over bottom heat, i think it's just easier for the rack builder??

But, I am still curious to know if anyone can think of an advantage of back heat over bottom heat?

~ Mike Russo

most here follow recipe keeping, they just do what they are TOLD. Its to bad they do not listen to the animals.

I am not trying to be mean, I am just trying to stick up for the snakes. They have lots of behaviors, many ways to accomplish the same thing. For them, its about what works at a time and a condition. Their natural enviornment is constantly changing as the days go by. So they use a series of behaviors to achieve their needs.

In captivity, many keep them in an average way and achieve average results. Doing this, their animals suffer from easy to cure, should have/could have been avoided, problems that a simple choice would have prevented.

If you read these forums, folks are constantly recomending bandaid cures for problems that do not need to occur.

A simple example is feeding, if they have a reluctant feeder, they recomend all manner of tricks. When the real cure is to adjust the conditions for optimum feeding response. That almost never happens here.

As a field herper, natural snakes constantly adject their conditions to fit their current needs.

Another example is, When do I put my snakes in brumation, or when to bring them out. The reality is, if they had a range of temps, they would do all that ON THEIR OWN. Then you could watch and LEARN.

But the paradign here is, TELL THEM WHAT TO DO, repeat it and then say, snakes do not do anything other then what they do under the conditions we force them to live in.

84F in the summer and 55F in the winter is not what they do. Its what we force them to do, Its not their choice.

I do not know of anywhere in nature where these snakes live that is 84F in the summer and 55F in the winter. All areas these snakes exsist in have a range of temps that is hotter and colder.

This recipe keeping is great for beginers and commerical breeders, but don't you think that advanced keepers should not only keep their charges alive, but also explore what these great creatures actually are. Cheers

I will. The only advantage I can see is that perhaps back or side heat will not heat the overall enclosure as much as under tank heating. This would mean that you could provide a bit wider thermal gradient in the cage.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Again you show a lack of ability to read. Try reading it again.

Also, whos advantage are we talking about. I get the feeling, advantages must be yours to be of benefit.

What Mark has clearly shown is, that snake understands how to use the heat he is providing. Is that not a benefit to us? To see what these wonderful animals actually work.

So whats the problem Tony, are others having fun and learning and your not a part of it???? Seriously, why would you have to comment at all? You see, again its you invading my replys. Just one more behavior for me to observe. hahahahahahahahaha Cheers

Unless you consider answering a simple question without ridiculing the questioner a problem, I don't think I have one. Face it Frank, for all your asking for questions that isn’t what you want. There was a teachable moment here and you blew it big time just so you could ridicule someone.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Sorry Tony, But your only wanting to fight is very transparent. All the posters here have been wonderful, except you(again)

The meaningful answer to the question is and should be, TO LEARN. To learn is the benefit to us.

The benefit to the animals is to be allowed to act and perform in an inherent way. To express its natural behaviors in a way thats important to the animal

You see, Folks like you, talk about species and pure this and that, yet you only talk about color and pattern. Not about the animal. The color and pattern is only clothes to a species, its changed quickly.

Behavior on the other hand is what makes a species. It is what drives adaption.

And No, I do not expect you to understandt that either. The reward is, others will understand it and others will contemplate these words.

You see sir, you are so naive, you too only look for answers, yet, I only want others(and I) to think, to contemplate, to consider. Then I/we can come up with our own direction(conclusions). As this is really not about answers.

You should understand that answers are great for a math quiz, but not so good or accurate for a moving changing living animal. They are only steps to the next question. But then you will not get(understand) that either.

What is fun about messing with you is, your irrelevant(irrelevant=failing to relate to the matter). What you do or say, has never had or will have any impact on captive husbandry or the understanding of these fine animals. Your simply a burr in the saddle. You post to irritate, not to help or even question. Good luck with that.

Sometimes a simple answer is all thats needed. We can't all exist on such a high plain. If we did you wouldn't be so special!
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

If you two guys met in person i bet it would take 2 minutes and then you would have a hard time finding something to talk about..

Tony will you have a table this year at Daytona?

Okay sorry for the interupt. Please continue..
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It would not take two minutes, Its very apparent that he only wants to talk about my misgivings. Hes not particapating to help in any way. Unless he comes up with something of interest, why would I want to talk about my misgivings? hahahahahahaha, as that is ALL he wants to talk about, MY MISGIVINGS, hahahahahahahahahaha

What he is doing is called Ralph baiting, its where he keeps picking and picking until the thread is deleted and some folks banned. Why he does that is ON HIM.

So no, two minutes is far to long, a hi and bye is good enough for me.

ITs good enough for you and I to understand, its not a problem to keep kings in pairs or groups. That he cannot is not about us. Its about him. Surely its not about the snakes. Cheers

Frank if you were even half way objective you'd see that the people who take you to task here actually HELP you make your points, this thread included. Yes I particularly am over the top with you sometimes but but hey the paybacks are well deserved so stop whining and go clean some cages.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Stop your people "stuff"(actually a cuss word)yapping and talk about animals, then we would get along.

So you think you help the point along, sir all you do is confuse and divert the threads and make the subject about people.(C just like here)

If you want to play chess with me, lets do it by keeping the animals as the subject. I know, you have no pieces to play with. If thats true, GET SOME PIECES. (do I have to explain what that means?) Cheers

Sorry Frank but people are part of the equation here. It's not my issue that you become combative and insulting whenever other people contribute but neither is it in my nature to back down or just leave the forum to you as too many others have.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

So its all about your nature and not about snakes. I hate to tell you, your the one whos combative. You cannot stand anyone else have a outlook different then yours. I ask you, stay away from me and my posts. If you feel you have something to ADD, do it on your own. Good luck with your herp future. Cheers

Ironic how you want me to afford you a courtesy that you do not grant others, should I also not post when I agree with you or when I think you’ve made good points? Perhaps you would find a lively give and take more palatable if I started with “no offence” or “not to be rude” or threw in a few "HAHAHAs" every now and then and said "Cheers" at the end of each post. Perhaps then I could say things like "you have a defective mind" and it would somehow be OK?

This is how this thread has gone Frank. Mark posted something he was trying with back heat and Russo asked what the advantage was. You didn’t answer the question so I did. Now you could have read my answer and taken my snipe at you (well earned on your part I might add) in stride and thought, “Dang! Tony’s a pain in my _ _ _ but he's starting to get it” because that is exactly what happened. Until Mark’s post and Mike’s question I’d never thought of back heat as being worth a hoot! Instead you got all half cocked and are calling me out and telling me I can’t make comments on a public forum. To that sir I simply say, "NUTS."
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

First off, folks who keep snakes, HAVE A DEFECTIVE MIND(get over it) Then folks who read or write on a forum of people with defective minds, HAVE DEFECTIVE MINDS, again get over it.

Anyone who puts snakes in boxes, has a defective mind. Do you get this, kinda like the, if your this and that, your a redneck.

Also, anyone who takes anything on here SERIOUSLY, has a defective mind. In fact, I may be a young lady, and not an old man. You would not know. I may have never kept a snake, and you would not know. This place is not REAL. Its cyberspace.

ALso that you have to be Marks police officer. Hmmmmmm why not let Mark do his own police work. You see sir, this is the point, I AM NOT taking to you. I normally talk to someone else and you butt in. Hmmmmmmmmmmm your a bad bad man.

Also in many cases, a person ASKS me a question, then you jump in and derail the thread. The Defective mind thing again.

Nobody asked you to jump in, did they? If they ask me a question OR even click on my reply, THEY KNOW WHAT TO EXPECT. OR they will learn what to expect. ITS NOT YOUR BUSINESS. You do understand, it takes a effort to read my posts. They do not pop into others heads. So sir, mind your own dang business.

ALso, your somehow concerned about whom or how many folks I effect(good or bad) Sir, I never and do not now, want to effect the masses. I perfer to effect the few, the very very few.

Heres the kicker, It appears to me, YOU think your superior to all these folks, as only you can protect them from my evil words. I on the otherhand, have faith in those folks. If they do not like what I say or how I say it, THEY CAN CHOOSE NOT TO ASK ME ANYTHING OR READ MY POSTS OR REPLYs. Isn't that how you deal with trolls?

So sir, why do you think your so superior? I have not figured that out yet. In fact, you do not appear to be anything more then a trouble maker. So I ask you again, Stay away from my posts. Is that too much to ask. If you feel the need, you could email those folks and tell them to not read my posts. Or you could explain what I am saying, or Oh nevermind, its back to that defective mind thing. Which it appears I have too, because I am still taking to you.

I will make a concerned effort to not talk to you, if you do the same. Deal or no deal

Lastly, a little more then half of what i say is grounded in some odd form of humor. Those that know me personally understand, I have a sense of humor(how funny I am can be debated)

OH wait, I just explained this to my wife, SHE SAYS YOU LOVE ME OR just A HUGE MAN CRUSH ON ME. stop that now! please. Cheers

"OH wait, I just explained this to my wife, SHE SAYS YOU LOVE ME OR just A HUGE MAN CRUSH ON ME. stop that now! please."

Your sence of humor is indeed strange!
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

**In fact, I may be a young lady, and not an old man**

LOL

Kerby...

I just fell out of my chair, and the people I work with are looking at me funny!
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

There are other reasons to keep snakes then treating them like cards(morphs)

*cough* *cough* *cough* - *HACK!* *cough* *cough* *cough*

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Hi Mike,

Not all keepers have the same goals. If your goal is like my goal - to learn a bit more about the snake's business of living while keeping them in captivity - then there are benefits. Otherwise, no benefit at all, except maybe #1 below.

1. With the heater on the side, there is virtually no possibility of overheating. The snake has the entire cage to escape the heat, and this means the cage doesn't have to be as large to get the gradient.

2. Behavior observations: When I kept bottom heat at 82 deg, the snakes would spend by far most of time sitting over the heat. I thought that meant 82 deg was all they want to handle. But I was wrong. With this side heat in the 90-95 deg range, I see different behaviors.

I now see purposeful use of cool temps most of the time, and rather selective use of warm temps some of the time, much warmer than 82 deg. Sometimes I do see the snakes about 1/2" away from the heater in a crevice where their external body temp is around 80 deg. Point is, I see different scenarios now.

Maybe the snake ultimately desires the 80-82 deg F temp internally and employs the selective usage of higher and lower temps to get there. I'll let the field guys like FR determine if that is the case. However, if different needs require different temps for optimum performance (I think it does), then a different approach to keeping them, different than an average, may result in better breeding, more robust hatchlings, longer life, etc.
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Mark

There is a common captive belief that a reptile should be basking for long periods. Which could not be farther from the truth. They want to gain the heat needed to "live their life" Their life is not basking its going about their business. So they gain the heat needed as fast as possible, then go about their business, then heat up again is needed, etc. How this is done depends on the species/need, and season.

But no reptile lives to bask. In fact, if they can obtain the heat needed in any other way they will. If basking means to expose themselves to danger, then they avoid it. But at times and under certain conditions, they have to risk being exposed. With regional basking like what is being done in this case, they expose as little as possible.

For instance, the AC season is about over, once the surface heats up enough, snakes will avoid surface basking and start to move at night. It will be simply too hot to sit under tin and wood. Then it will be too hot to get near the surface in the day. Hmmmmmmmmmm a little puzzle we have yes? Cheers

So should I turn on my basking light for 17 minutes in the morning and night or 23.5 minutes only once in the middle of the day?

Thanks for your response Mark, you make some very good points.

I hope you know that i was not attacking you or your methods. I am really curious to know what the results you were trying to achieve. Good luck and keep us updated on your observations.

~ Mike Russo

I know you weren't attacking. No problem at all with questioning.
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Mark

I have racks made by Reptile Basics that all have back side-heat. Heat strip runs vertical along back wall. Seems to work fine.
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I too have a Reptile Basics rack (older STC-410 model) with back heat.

Works great with the smaller/low profile tubs, and provides a nearly perfect 10 degree gradient front to back.

Trevor

I too have a Reptile Basics rack (older STC-410 model) with back heat.

Trevor

Yeah Reptile Basics is alright but one of my heat strips went bad (in the baby rack 68 tub model) and I can't figure out how to replace it. I think once the tape goes the unit can be tossed.
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Mine has small screws that lock each shelf into the main housing.

It would be a bit of work, but I couldn't imagine that dis/reassembly would take more than a couple of hours.

Trevor