Reptile & Amphibian Forums

are there some mice that the snakes will just not touch? Seems like out of every batch of mice there is one that no one will touch, even the "garbage disposals". Even trying to entice one to eat will not work.

It is also as if they are afraid of it like it has a different scent on it even though the mice could have come out of the same bin.

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Kevin Harrell
www.harrellandsonsherps.com

Maybe your snakes are spoiled. Mine will eat 3 day old bloated mice if given the chance. I have some garbage feeders that are the healthiest snakes in my collection and they eat the most disgusting things imaginable. Lately i have been feeding all chick to my adults. Those can last 4-5 days and the snakes will still eat them. Heck some males will come rushing out of there tupperware boxes anc chase me like I am the food item.
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Why do you think that is???????? mine are the same.

Oh on nesting, try dark, snakes hate laying in lite areas. Think down in the ground. Try coco husk and sand, and use black trash bags if your going to nest them in shoebox type containers. You can use your imagination and accomplish this in a bunch of different ways. Cheers

I usually use a tupperware lid and just throw ina mix of peat-perlite vermiculite or whatever i have avaliable . The room is dark all the time unless i am in there working. Still they don't use lay boxes so I use this method. Bigger problem is they eat their own eggs as soon as they come out.
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hmmm. sure sounds like you're starvin' them!
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

hmmm. sure sounds like you're starvin' them!

yeah it sure does seem like I am starving them. And I am sure that is what FR wants to say. But as you know I am a big proponent of feeding my snakes more than others. They double clutch and they eat through the winter as well. However the period before laying they don't want to eat for a few weeks. Someone told me they might be lacking calcium and this could be the reason. I think it has to do with something in the way i have them set up. Really have no clue as to why these snakes are doing this and why it never happened in the past. This year i have everything on chicks instead of small rats. So I wonder if the switch will make a difference.

It is also weird they won't eat each other, but they will eat their own eggs. I have different femels do this ebery year except for 3 sulfur lavenders that have this 4 years in a row. . That is why i can't fill the demand for the sulfur lavs. And yes the females have good weight on them but still eat their own eggs:

Sorry about the diversion from the OP.
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I have found that females will take very small meals (fuzzies/hoppers for large females) if left in the cage overnight. I usually leave it right in the entrance to the lay box and most of them will eat up until a few days before laying. I fed a female tonight who is blue with her pre-lay shed.

Also... are you using any calcium supplements? If you are feeding only day old chicks I would be very concerned about your females getting enough calcium. I alternate feeding large mice and day old chicks.

Also... are you using any calcium supplements? If you are feeding only day old chicks I would be very concerned about your females getting enough calcium. I alternate feeding large mice and day old chicks.

I am using mostly chicks with a few large mice thrown in once ina while. But last year abd previous years i was feeding small rats and large mice.

I am looking for any advice I can get. So far i am in favor of FR statement to throw in plastic bags on top or sand and husk mixture. I am going to a horticulture supply store tommorow and see what they have in bulk prices. I have got to try something new.
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Your right on with the small food items. They do eat up until the day they lay, but they understand they do not have room to pass large prey items. Good on you.

First, females should not consume their eggs, no matter how hungry they are. Wild females also get hungry after laying.

Eating their eggs is a sign of a failed nesting. What it means in your case, you will have to find out. But from what you have said, they are not taking to your nests. That is, they do not have the ability to MAKE their own nests. Which from my photos you can see they know how to do. When females "think" they have a failed nesting, and/or the eggs are not viable, they will consume them. This is particularly common with varanids. Pythons will push infertile or dead eggs out of their coils. They are also known to consume "bad" eggs.

Behaviorally, females should hide the nests(a way of nest protection) and/or fight anything they can, to protect the nest. Of course, if the predator is too large, they will give up and live to lay another day. Our torts, pythons, varanids, all actively hide and protect their nest. Colubrids do so in a very low key way. They tend to hide the nest, then move away. My bet is, and this is only theory, they leave a scent trail away from the nest(decoy scenting). Good luck

"Eating their eggs is a sign of a failed nesting. What it means in your case, you will have to find out. But from what you have said, they are not taking to your nests. That is, they do not have the ability to MAKE their own nests. Which from my photos you can see they know how to do. When females "think" they have a failed nesting, and/or the eggs are not viable, they will consume them."

Sorry if this ticks you off but I agree.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

No need to be sorry!

OhJEEZ you both agree. I guess the heavens will open up and hit me with a bolt of lightining now if I don't find a way to nest them.

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I don't know about all that. We agree more than not we just think the other is an unsufferable _ _ _ and we're probly both right! In this case Frank articulated the issue very well. Animals are generally loath to waste energy and if they think the nesting failed they resorb the energy by eating the eggs in hopes of reusing it for a more successful attempt.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Or maybe you are both wrong this time. HA HA HA!

Thanks guy! I get a lot out of both your posts.

..like how to argue
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Praise from Caesar!
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Yes i am the Deity of interlocking and complex relations
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Of course this can be done WAY BETTER, but its what I do as a minimum.

I use those plastic tubs, use a size for the type of snakes. You want a fairly large size. I do not put these nesting boxes in cages. I put the gravid female in these boxes to shed, then they will lay when ready. We often have the eggs deposited the day after shedding.

I use coco/sand mixture, but I have used many substrates successfully. I am not sure it matters if the rest is right.

Basically, these boxes are a snake cage with retes boards and a heat element if needed.

This pic shows the female has shed, then has gone down, notice the tight burrows. About 3 inches(aprox) down I bury a piece of glass or lexan. The females generally go under the glass and make a nesting chamber.

They then lay their eggs, sometimes I put two or three layers of glass depending on the species. Some species like to lay between two solid smooth surfaces.

You can brush the substrate aside and watch the progress without disturbing the female. You can also tell when she has left the eggs. hahahahahahahaha tricky huh?

Notice how clean and tight the eggs are placed and how smooth the nesting chamber is. Sir, this is what they do. They DO NOT JUST DROP EGGS WILLY NILLY. I hate to say this but when folks post pics of eggs scattered in a clear plastic box, it makes me sad for the snake.

I have three or four of these boxes and place females in them as needed. Whats funny is, if you have several females of the same species and place them all in the nesting box, they tend to nest together. Hmmmmmmmmm what do they know? cheers

That's a great series, Frank!

Do you heat the plastic boxes from the side or top? What type of heating element do you use?
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Diego

SWCHR

hmmmmmmmm, from the top with a small bulb, 15 watt or 25w depending on how hot it is out. In another two or three weeks, there will be no need to heat any darn thing around here.

The reality is, these boxes already had fixtures in the lids. So I went with them. But side heating would be GREAT most likely WAY BETTER. Cheers

Awesome photos Frank. Thanks for sharing.

Is that a mixture of peat moss and vermiculite or a different mix? It looks like dirt and peat moss to me>(?)

Last 2 years I would place the snake in a large container as you described. Only I used just plain peat moss and a board. But the peat moss drove them crazy and they scattered their eggs about.

Keep in mind i am refferring mostly to Florida kings and not meek and gentle spp like Cal kings, Mtn Kings and milks. Floridana seem to want to crap on everything to make it theirs.
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I use coco husk and sand now. But I have used peat and sand. As I said, I think all will work if done correctly. ALso the right moisture level is important. And may be a little species specific.

As I said, Sometimes I use two or three layers of glass and somethings I wad up a trashbag and bury it in the mix. Snakes have their preferences.

With snakes, they have a limited amount of possibilities, with varanids, its about 100 times more.

In my experience, all snakes mark(crap) their territory. The point is to offer something they recognize as nesting. Not as a last choice, but as a first choice. Depth is often important.

I have to say, your tiny fla kings have nothing on blackheadeds and womas, which I also nested in a manner like this. In fact, they taught me how to nest snakes. The point is to allow them the right temps and feel. Then they often lay the day after shedding. By the way, I bred fla kings and did not see them as any different then any other colubrid snake.

I have found many eggs in the rotting trunks of small palms.
It's almost identical in texture and otherwise very similar to the coconut husk stuff.

:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

that...is so cool........that is way better then what I give them.....very good for you and them man....Thanxx.....
I learned something...and that happens very few times in here....

cool stuff......!
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Very interesting post Frank! Have you tried this with Alterna?

I use what i thought was a very thick layer of medium in my boxes, but nothing compared to this.. Most of my females tend to move all the medium to one side of the box and then lay on the other side???

~ Mike Russo

This method had its beginings with alterna and because of alterna, hahahahahahahaha. I started making large nesting that allowed the snakes to live in the nesting cages, so I could go to texas and hunt more alterna. i wanted the snakes to be able to stay in the nesting boxes for a couple weeks and lay and have the eggs be hatchable when I returned. It worked.

At the time I used 15gallon lard tubs, filled almost to the top. Lite fixture in the lid, etc.

I tested them by putting pre-shed females in them. Thats when we noticed they could lay the day after a shed or within a few days.

Doing this allow our old records of 66 baby alterna(in one season) from three 18 month old females. That is babies, not eggs. I also recieved 99 baby cal kings from 3 18 month old Cal kings(in one season)

The glass layers was added around 1977 taken from Ernie Wagner. He used small boxes(actually metal lunch boxes) with glass layers. He would always wait until 9 days after they shed to put the females in the box. Cheers

...from you today, Frank. Thank you for sharing your experiences openly and honestly with us. The pics really helped too!
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Diego

SWCHR

OK, you have peaked my interest and i am going to try this out this year. I have a few questions that I hope you will answer for me..

Did you come to any conclusions as to why females lay the day after a shed or within a few days?? Nearly all of my females lay in 7 to 10 days. And, why is this important? Meaning do you think there is any benefits to laying sooner??

Also, Can you share your thoughts on why/how using this type of lay box can increase clutch size and improve hatch rates? Are you incubating in this box as well? To date my largest Alterna clutch has been 17 eggs from one female and i almost always wait 3 years (somtimes 4) to breed my girls.. 66 hatchlings from three 18 month females is fantastic results and certainly more than I have ever heard of.

Being that my collection in nearly 90% Alterna you can see why i would be interested in learning more about this topic.

~ Mike Russo

He used small boxes(actually metal lunch boxes) with glass layers.

Lunch boxes?

I set up a plate glass in one of my tubs with sphagnum and perlite mix. The female is already nesting and have been watching her. Cool!.

If I need to travel for 2 weeks. What depth should I use to leave the snakes and eggs for that period of time? 1'- 1 1/2' ft okay? I will buy those deep storage tubs at walmart but have to keep things cost effective because of the amount of snakes i have to set up this way.

I figure for a couple hundreds bucks invested I can have peace of mind when on vacation.
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I am going to try this method this year with 2 or three females. Just for fun I am also going to put in her usual nest box on top and see what she chooses.

Have you ever used one of these deep boxes with a less fossorial species like corns?

Mike, getting a jump on the second clutch and the ability to triple comes to mind. perhaps the feeling of a secure nest helps overall egg laying ability. Frank, were those alterna on mice and/or lizards? I bet they were chow hounds!
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Todd Hughes

I used this method (deep substrate) with corns...Works great. The corn snakes are more fossorial then I had previously thought.
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

Neat. The glass is a nice touch
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

..a womb with a view.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Indeed. I generally use long fiber sphagnum with good results but some critters just don't seem to like it. For those I use a 50/50 mix of shredded coconut hush and play sand. I've found that if I lay laid a piece of ceramic tile over the medium they seem to be able to make their nest easier. Never thought of using glass, which makes it much easier to check up on the females' progress! Tempted to say this is about the keeper (LOL) but it does allow you to monitor your animals with minimal disturbance, which of course is about them.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson