Reptile & Amphibian Forums

So, a few quick questions about "Pastels" in general.

Pastel = AKA Lemon Pastel? Or are these different?

Cinnamon = AKA Black Pastel? Or are these different?

Also, are these both called "Pastels" because they are allelic? Just different forms of the same gene?

In which case, if I bred a Pastel and a Cinnamon together I would not get a Pastel-Cinnamon, I would get EITHER Pastels OR Cinnamons?
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pastel
cinamon
black pastel

three different

pastel x cinny = pastels,cinnies,pewters,normals....any of these...

pastel x black pastel gets pastel,blacks,pewters,normals also...but the pewters are darker usually...

black x black gives some super black
cinny x cinny gets super cinny
pastel x pastel gets some super pastels...

etc etc etc

./....all reasonably priced now.....
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You're talking about three distinct morphs, two of which are somewhat related.

Pastels - there are lots of 'em around, and some breeders' lines have their own names. Lemon Pastel is NERD's line. Super is Pastel-only-more-so - the "Super Pastel".

Cinnamons - super is a patternless dark snake. Combines with Pastel to make a pale Pewter.

Black Pastel - has nothing whatsoever to do with Pastel. It's called that because . . . the person who proved the morph out decided to call it that, I guess. Super is a dark patternless snake, but darker than the Super Cinnamon, and often black. Combines with Pastel to make a darker "Black Pewter", and with Cinnamon to make . . . a dark patternless snake.

HTH!

~Bruce

Combines with Pastel to make a darker "Black Pewter", and with Cinnamon to make . . . a dark patternless snake.
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Black Pastel and Cinnamon are on the same allele like you just said.

Otherwise they wouldn't make a dark patternless snake.

Are they the same gene or not, is something else. Are Black Pastel just a selected cinnamon ? may be.

Are we gonna have Super Black Pastel, lighter than Super Cinnamon in a few years ? May be.

But you are right, Pastel and BlackPastel/Cinnamon are different genes, that make pewter or black pewter.
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>Black Pastel and Cinnamon are on the same allele like you just said.

>Otherwise they wouldn't make a dark patternless snake.

In my opinion, black pastel and cinnamon may be alleles (different versions of the same gene), but they do not have to be alleles. The two mutant genes may be independent, and their effects may be additive.

The way to tell whether the two are independent is to get a black snake from a black pastel X cinnamon mating and mate it to a normal. If there are any normal babies, then the two mutant genes are independent. If there are 17 babies with no normals, then there is a 99% probability that black pastel and cinnamon are either alleles or the same gene.

Paul Hollander

Paul is right that we really need proof that cinnamon and black pastel are alleles but it does seem likely they are. I suppose by now someone has taken the solid colored snake produced from a cinnamon to black pastel breeding and bred that solid colored snake to a normal and could confirm if they got any normals or solid colored snakes disproving cinnamon and black pastel being alleles. But I don't remember hearing the results but would be surprised if they weren’t alleles.

I believe when cinnamon was first named "cinnamon pastel" it was before it was even proved genetic and the name may have been from comparisons with pastel which had already been proven. Now day's "pastel" is usually dropped off the cinnamon name and I think that is a good thing to avoid confusion. Unfortunately "black" doesn't sound descriptive enough to probably catch on as a shortening of "black pastel" to avoid the confusion on that side too.

When I first saw the pewter from the pastel X cinnamon breeding I thought its stunning appearance was a good indication that pastel and cinnamon might be alleles. But since then breedings have proven that cinnamon and pastel are not alleles (and probably aren't even on the same chromosome or at least not very close together). Funny that this first possible case for an allele combo didn't pan out but so many multiple mutant allele group members have been found since.