Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Anyone have any information on this? All I've been able to find on the web is that a study was done by an FIU grad student. I will contact the university, but I just wanted to see if anyone knew anything about the results of the study.

Thanks!
Ed

Jeez, I'm an idiot, I didn't read the entire abstract.

http://www.fiu.edu/ugs/announcements/m_d_as_2008_may_9.html

I think the key sentence form the abstract is - "Multiple population analyses revealed that the ENP Burmese pythons display low genetic differentiation suggesting no significant substructure." In layman's terms, I believe that means that all/most of the pythons are closely related.

Thanks,
Ed

>>Anyone have any information on this? All I've been able to find on the web is that a study was done by an FIU grad student. I will contact the university, but I just wanted to see if anyone knew anything about the results of the study.
>>
>>Thanks!
>>Ed

Tom Crutchfield knows a good bit about the study. Interestingly enough, my daughter starts her PhD program there this fall. I know there's one professor who has studied the effects of hurricane Andrew on the wildlife there.

Thanks. I was hoping Tom will comment, and I've got an e-mail out to the FIU biology department.

Personally, I don't understand why this study isn't being shouted
from the rooftops by our side. Unless there is some methodology problem with it, it's scientific evidence to back up the strong circumstantial evidence (as well as common sense) that the Burm population in the Everglades was NOT caused by the random imbeciles releasing their pythons into the wild. As Tom has stated, this is not trivial. IMO, the "Joe Idiot Python owner" stereotype is the biggest/strongest piece of propaganda that the AR whackos have spewed. Even half the herp community seems to believe it without question.

BTW, good luck to your daughter!

>>Tom Crutchfield knows a good bit about the study. Interestingly enough, my daughter starts her PhD program there this fall. I know there's one professor who has studied the effects of hurricane Andrew on the wildlife there.

In my social circles of non-herp folks...it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter how the pythons got there, what matters is that they are there. If there had been better legislation and fewer pythons in the first place, Hurricane Andrew would be the python related ecological disaster that it is.

Those aren't my words, by the way, just paraphrasing what I hear.

That's fine, except they should acknowledge the dishonesty of blaming and stereotyping pet owners. Dishonesty is dishonesty. But I guess if the end justifies the means...

"Ecological disaster?" I could easily be ignorant of other evidence, but so far the only evidence I've seen supporting the idea that the pythons are wreaking havoc in the everglades is the
stomach contents of 5 or 6 captured pythons (out of a how many hundred?) that were HAND-PICKED after the stomach contents were exposed. Is there more evidence than this? What about the stomach contents of all the other pythons examined? Wouldn't pythons also eat common, invasive animals that harm indigenous wildlife? Don't indigenous animals use python eggs and pythons as a food source? The workings of the ecosystem is not as simple as looking at the stomach contents of half a dozen snakes.

Thanks,
Ed

>>In my social circles of non-herp folks...it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter how the pythons got there, what matters is that they are there. If there had been better legislation and fewer pythons in the first place, Hurricane Andrew would be the python related ecological disaster that it is.
>>
>>Those aren't my words, by the way, just paraphrasing what I hear.

Wild feral cats which are highly destructive have been found in the bellies of many...thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

The way people react to the situation with the burms in the glades reminds me of the deal where someone has a car that's completely falling part but their worried about fixing the radio.

The guys like Nelson and his restoration buddy's are shady mechanics that want you to keep bringing the car in to them so they can keep making money with out really fixing anything.

Burms represent cosmetic damage what the glades needs is engine work.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

Reptiles regularly eat dirt to conserve healthy digestive functions. Normally, if the crap spells extrodinarily bad, it means that the reptile is sick.
The shady mecanics should eat some dirt too, it is very healthy in digesting food for thought. Normally when the definitions in a bill stink, the proposed legislation is sick and or just suffering from absurd consequences.

That is so true.
If the federal government and the state of Florida really were concerned with the Everglades they would have pooled their resources and put up the money last month for the sugar cane industry. Instead, they did it half-assed, like usual.

We can´t promote legislation which is based on half-baked thoughts?

Yep...I totally agree with you.

My point was not to voice my opinion. I keep a Burm here in FL and quite enjoy my ability to do so, even if it does cost an extra $100 per year on top of the $50 I already pay the FWC.

I guess I just wanted to add the opinions of what I hear around me in adult conversation of non-herpers. As non-reptile people, all they know about pythons is that 1) They are all huge (and scary) 2) They are supposedly taking over the Everglades 3) They are there because 'bad' pet owners released them there. I guess no one else in the state releases them, the Burms all slither down to S FL, or pet owners all drive en masse to the Everglades for secret releases. The press down here is brutal when it comes to wild/escaped herps.

Oh, and I had a typo...I meant "Hurricane Andrew would NOT have been an ecological disaster..."

Actually, the way I read it all but 2 out of 157 looked at were very closely related possibly from only one pair of snakes. I'm not a geneticist but I believe that's correct which is a DIRECT CONTRADICTION of crazed herpers racing to the Everglades to dump their pets which is simply NOT TRUE. That is an urban legend being used by our enemies to spread fear and dissention.....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Outside of the hurricane model, the most likely source of pythons being released in the Everglades is from the animal rights groups themselves. In the words of Paul Watson, a Board Member of the Sierra Club “There's nothing wrong with being a terrorist, as long as you win. Then you write history."

As a population geneticist who works on invasive species I have to say I was less than impressed when I read this manuscript. I have serious issues with the markers used and the sampling design. By multiple populations, they mean samples from the ever glades, a small number of samples from a region of their native range, and one or two pet shop pythons. They are more related to each other than to those from a wild population, however, there is no comment regarding the collection orgin in the wild of were pythons in captivity have originated over the years. To my knowledge, over the years they have come from multiple locations. If this is true, then the pythons in the Everglades, based on their results, are derived from a small number of indivuals from one of these location. A more thorough genetic study involving a more solid sampling regime, and species specific markers, is required to clarrify this.

Warren
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Dr Warren Booth
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

USARK Director

Warren, as a long time importer I can tell you most modern Burmese morphs derived from snakes originally imported from Thailand and in the last 10 years or so from Viet Nam. Those two locales account likely for 99.99% of all Burmese held in collections in the U.S. Even snakes imported from Malaysia for a short time [4 years or less] actually came from Thailand. So if only 2 locales are even reasonbly possible what does that mean in terms of their DNA work?...thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com