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I believe that a NEW version of this bill HR669 will be introduced very soon. After a LOT of searching both online and orally, I believe that NRIP will be the compromise offered by some in OUR OWN INDUSTRY. This stands for National Reptile Improvement Plan, and THIS IS NOT GOOD for the average Herper.

I would like to go on record as saying I'M OPPOSED TO NRIP AND EVERYTHING ASSOCIATED WITH IT. This would "white list" certain species to be bred under certain conditions and only financially benefit some "snake and gecko mills" and not allow for investment herp breeders or Joe Herper who breeds a few herps he likes and sells offspring to finance his hobby.

While this bill could very well benefit me, I WILL NOT DESERT MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN THIS INDUSTRY FOR MY PERSONAL GAIN!!! NRIP has been secretly in the works for over two years, and I don't believe in coincidences. I'm enclosing a link and would encourage all of you to read it and decide for yourselves. NRIP even casts a bad light on internet sales and reptile shows.

I woke up this morning and feel like I'm in the old Pogo Comic Strip where one of them says "I have met the enemy, and he is us." All of this seems to about some making a LOT OF MONEY, but then most things are about money.

Hang on you rodent breeders, there is a "NATIONAL RODENT IMPROVEMENT PLAN" out there that will have similar consequences. Thanks for reading this.

NRIP MEETING

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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I was involved with NRIP drafts several years ago. The primary reason this was written was as a response to the issues with Amblyomma ticks and Cowdria.

What specifically are your concerns with NRIP? I don't think it's a perfect document, and it's been over a year since I reviewed it, but I don't recall much that would be a hurdle to hobbyists. The biggest problem I can recall from the conference calls had to do with requiring a consulting veterinarian. There was never anything resembling a white list (or a black list for that matter), and the only issues involving invasive exotics included some language about caging, disaster planning, and employee and customer education.

I can't speak to the issues regarding shows, that may be a valid concern.

I can't imagine this document would be adopted as is, so if this is a template for legislation there would be an opportunity comment on the parts of it that are problematic.

I believe the full document is available on the PIJAC website for people to review. I'll reread it myself before commenting further.

Joe Hiduke

All,

I just scanned it. Its main goal is to squeeze out the little guy who can't afford to conform to these standards. As a little guy that's how I read it. There are some good things in the document that would help the industry, however. I know of a certain former burmese python breeder that now does chondros, boas and colubrids in the Gainesville, Florida area that was talking a few years ago about doing something like this. His arguement was that the "backyard breeder" didn't have the over head he did and thus could under cut him on price. I find the opposite to be true. The "warehouse snake breeders" usually under cut the "backyard breeder." There are many more "backyard breeders" then big commercial guys. Another interesting fact is that many of the big guys in the industry use to be small guys. Now they have theirs and they want to close the door on you getting yours.

This sounds really familiar. Some of you may remember my arguements with a certain group of west Texas herpers. They claim to not be commercial when it comes to collecting from the wild. They want to throw the commercial guys under the bus so they can keep theirs. They claim to be recreational hobbyists. As with the fishing industry we know that the recreational folks greatly out number the commercial folks. Now, if the big breeders get their way, the small recreational hobbyists will now have to admit to being commercial and conform to these new commercial standards to be in the game.

This industry has always been interesting and cut throat. It will be interesting to see how this works out. I will support an individual's rights to be in the game at any level. However, it looks like we are moving towards the Wal-Mart model if we don't get castrated by the academics and AR groups first. Oh the joys of herpetoculture.

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

What exactly is onerous in this document that the little guy wouldn't be able to conform with?

Joe,

Well, I just scanned the document but it reminded me of what Eugene was talking about when he told me of his ideas back several years ago. It reminds me of the AZA with its use of accrediation. I believe they started out as optional but nowadays if you are not an AZA accredited zoo you are shunned. It sets up a system that will have power over people. If PIJAC decides to start setting new policies that take away our rights but are required for accreditation then people can find themselves on the short end of the stick.

The $100 fee for accreditation for breeders is way to expensive for most hobbyists. We already have to pay $60 for a non-game dealer permit, $60 for an exotic snake permit, $23 for a hunting license and $75 to $160 for each other states annual non-resident hunting licenses. If you do herp shows out of state you have to buy liscenses in each of those states and deal with taxes for each of those states.

I worry that it may make things difficult for new guys coming up and smaller businesses who are already hurting. I worry that it may force concessions by collectors and dealers to give up certain rights and privileges to stay accreditted. And if buyers only buy from accreditted folks then it could set up a monopoly. It may also create a bureaucracy controlled by the big breeders, academics and AR compromise. I don't feel 100% confident that PIJAC will protect the rights of collectors and the sale of wild caught especially with its alliances with academics and groups like PARC.

Does that answer your question?

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

First and foremost we must respect the rights of our fellow freaks.
Then sharpen your teeth before you sink them into the nice mushi fleshy tasty sweetly fragrant mm but of favorte animal rights advocate terrorist. This is best propaganda article recently published in norwegian paper edition of "They Say Today!", I translate little for you;

Judging by he content, but also the way it is written Avidpets,com doesn´t seem to like snakes much.

"Snakes do not normally prey on people, but there are instances of small children being eaten by large constrictors in the jungle. While some particularly aggressive species exist, most will not attack humans unless startled or injured, preferring instead to avoid contact. The majority of snakes are either non-venomous or possess venom that is not harmful to humans."

"A big meal will keep some snakes content for a long time."

- http://www.avidpets.com/reptiles/snakes.htm

"avidpets.com was recently discovered to be a central knot in a large web of ill-intentioned activists who seek to gently terrorise the responsible urban citizen of today!", claims one "shady mechanic". Not all snakes are as dumb as you think, and they don´t need to be very smart to follow the scent of rat pee in order to find dinner, suggest some terrarists.

"Rats are known to be one of the most intelligent little creatures we know, often credited with dog-like intelligence."
- http://www.avidpets.com/petcare/trick-training.htm

avidpets.com does not mention that it is also possible to clicker train animals such as tads, frogs, salamanders, geckoes, iguanas, blue thoungue skinks, varanids, turtles, snakes, birds, cats, dogs, dolphins, elephants, whales and some scientific mice.

They write about

"Pet Lizards

Lizards make popular pets due to their ease of keeping, especially calmer lizards. Because there are so many of them available on the market today, I can't list all of them here on one page, but I will list a few of my favorites."

- http://www.avidpets.com/reptiles/lizards.htm

"Your Trusted Source for Quality Pet Care Information"

advidpets.com advocates that leopard geckoes should be kept in cages!

"The cage should have a cool end (about 80F) and warm end (85 to 90F) so your pet can regulate its own body temperature."

"Leopard geckoes are not pets! they are vivarium animals with rights!" one AR activist suggest. As sentinent beings who can be clicker-trained, hobbyist leopard geckoes have the right to live in roomy naturalistic vivariums where parents can hatch their eggs themselves and supervise the socialisation of the hatchlings in their planted naturalistic vivarium. the authors fail to reflect on the social characteristics of the leopard gecko. "Leopard geckoes who are raised by tame and loving parents in a large vivarium will grow up to be tamer and even more domesticated and civilised individuals" say the gecko rights activists.

umz.. there is more to the article but it´s hard to translate.

I think avidpets.com have a really cool virtual pets section though, I paste in the introduction;

"Free Virtual Pets!

If you are interested in:

Yu-Gi-Oh, Tamagochi, virtual pets, virtual dogs, virtual cats, virtual fish, virtual birds, virtual fish tanks or a virtual aquarium, pet rock, pet dinosaur, chicken, virtual pet cemetery, Dogz, Catz, Oddballz, Computer Petz, Creatures, norns, TRex, YIPD, virtual dinosaur, DK-96, Digital Kids, Date Kyoko, Kyoko Date, Yuki Usui, El-Fish, EcoSphere, AIBO, Giga Pets, Digital Doggie, Compu Kitty, Micro Chimp, Bit Critter, Aquazone, Chicknoch, Nano Pets, Happy House Virtual Hamster, Dinky Dino, Rakuraku Dinokun, Dinopet, Chickling, Furby, virtual reality, artificial life, physical virtual pets, Computer virtual pets, Pokemon, Pinkachu, research into the use and benefits of virtual pets, BandaiSega, PF. Magic, Sony, Technosphere, Nintendo, Maxis, HoriPro Inc., Yu-Gi-Oh, fad, fads, trend, trends, news, Virtual Pet Secrets Magazine, adopt virtual pets, free virtual pets, Computer virtual pets, cheats or in virtual pet instructions...

Than this is the place for you. Many of these virtual pets have been created in China, Japan or the U.K..

Free Virtual Pets!

Free Virtual Pets!

Downloadable Virtual Pets & Online Virtual Pets, Free Virtual Pets, Online Virtual Pets
Adopt Virtual Pets and Computer Pets
Online Virtual Pets

* Virtual Horses " ...and a long list is sponsored by;

"Find your pets by selecting their category below."

- http://www.avidpets.com/virtual-pets.htm

Hmmz.. that´s inspiering philosophy. "kill your frog till it croaks so it don´t invade our nature and our society, and adopt a virtual salamander!"

Regards
oby

n/p

Hi Joe, I have so many reasons why I oppose this I don't know where to start. At this time I'm NOT ready to make them public. This post is meant to alert the masses that this NRIP is out there and for them to research and make their own conclusions. If you've known about it "for about a year" how come almost no one else has. My question to you would be do you have a vested interest? The link and others that I have perused clearly condemns Reptile Shows and unregulated Internet Sales. If you suddenly destroyed the ability for the average hobbiestbreeder to advertize and sell their offspring online or at Shows who do you think would benefit? Once again research NRIP and make your own decision. How did you find out about NRIP and if it's our saving grace why is not more publicity about it put out for all of us to see? At a later date I will make my reasons abundantly clear. I would ask that you answer my questions to you as well...thank you for responding...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Hey Tom,

I don't have any vested interest in this becoming law or not. I'm currently working in the tropical fish industry (hence my concern about HR669). At some point I'd like to get back into the hobby, so I'm very interested in having a viable reptile industry in place.

Like I mentioned before, this first came about when the Amblyomma tick issues arose, I think around 2003. The initial response of the Cattleman's Association at that time was that if reptiles come in with ticks than we need to quit importing reptiles. This document was created at that time, and it alleviated a lot of their concerns. I believe it's been posted on the PIJAC website for at least three years, maybe longer. This was intended to be a voluntary program. There were quite a few conference calls with many folks in the industry. At that time I was employed in the industry which is how I became involved. I don't recall anything in the actual document that was opposed to shows or internet sales. I believe there hasn't been more publicity for this because we haven't had further tick issues, but I can't say for sure as I'm a PIJAC member but not otherwise involved with PIJAC.

I think the NRIP document is far from perfect, but I think it was crafted in a manner that would allow anyone, even small operations, to come into compliance if they chose to do so. If you do a close reading, most of the hoops to jump through involve animals in quarantine, and the animals are free to leave quarantine (for NRIP purposes) once they are determined to be visually clear of ectoparasites.

I'm pretty far out of the loop on this at this point, but I'll help out in any way that I can. Let me know if there's anything else I can address.

Thanks,

Joe

Sorry, Joe you explained several questions I asked. Peruse it again and I think you'll find it's NOT exactly the same as when you saw it first and talked about it...thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Sorry Tom, I replied to your earlier message while you posted this. I'll reread the document and try to chime in later.

Joe

Can someone please explain all this crap to me! I do not understand or comprehend why we need these regulations.

Doesn't the government have enough to do to fix the other pressing issues????

This cannot be only the AR peoples doing. What is to be gained by this??

USARK doesn't pretend to know what the position of others is on an HR669 type bill. But let me make our position very clear... USARK is strongly opposed to any compromise that involves a "White List" that will negatively impact the types of animals that can be worked with. We are also strongly opposed to any Federal Permit system to limit "who" can work with certain animals. Any proposals that involve either of these concepts will be opposed in the strongest possible terms by the Reptile Nation.
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Andrew Wyatt
President USARK

I AM IN TOTAL AGREEMENT WITH THE POSITION OF USARK.....TC
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

As am I and just about everyone else,I would imagine.

I would not panic just yet-no industry is more dependent on hobby breeders than the tropical fish industry-I can't for a moment picture them going along with something like this, and neither shall we.....
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

yes, let us depend on the others to save us. I don´t trust the fishy people, we should take matters into our own hands and not just calm down quietly and wait for extinction to inch itself closer to our animals.

Who are we kidding anyways? as you say, the avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote. Vivarium culture as we know it is going extinct, it is just a question of time, if I have understanden you correctly?

It´s a shame! I hope iguanas don´t go extinct before I can scrape together enough cash for a nice vivarium and a pair of them Crutchfield´s albino iguanas, they are very very sexy bling bling. ^_^

"yes, let us depend on the others to save us. I don´t trust the fishy people, we should take matters into our own hands and not just calm down quietly and wait for extinction to inch itself closer to our animals. "

Not my point at all, I know we will soon have to fight tooth and nail-but at the moment "watchful waiting" is our best strategy-at least until the opposition picks itself up off the floor and comes at us again ...
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

I was just pulling your leg in friendly debate mate, hope I haven´t offended you in any way.
You think the opposition tripped and fell? I think you have broken your argument, just the other day you guys were saying things were starting to look scary in the US and now all the opposition is suddenly on the floor and gaping? what happened? I must have missed some important piece of information, could you explain plz?

One would think that highly developed ethical warm-blooded primates with tender feelings toward cold-blooded animals would react, and participate, instead of just being quiet and waiting for something to happen. Waiting for another attack to come in?
The past 4 weeks maybe 50 people have participated in kingsnake Law & CITES forum. That´s not really a tidal-wave of warriors advocating for the best interest of their animals..
The past 2 weeks 32 people have participated. Fewer and fewer reptile owners follow these debates as they draw long and boring and dry. I hope I haven´t scared anyone away, it´s just so sad to see a forum goes mute like this. it is as if the responsible reptile owners we are talking about do not exist, or at least they don´t voice out their oppinion in public debate, speak up people! for goodness sake, this is not the time to play timid!
A handful of folks are putting up a herculian effort here and there, but especially here, it seems like no one gives a [bleep], except a pentionist who is defending his egoistical self interest in the pet industry, the money making machinery.
One would expect the terrarium keeper would feel she has an interest in participating in debates, and speak up her oppinion.
I can understand that Ralph davis isn´t very active here, he has his own forum to tend, and a buisness to run, and he is also an active lobbyist for the best interests of terrarium animals. ..
I can understand that a handful of firesouls and a retired pentionist have time to battle the windmills in here. What I can´t understand is that practically no one else gets provoked, takes a stand, shares oppinion, marks interest, or disgust, or impatience, emphathy or concerns of other types.
I think that expert oppinion regarding companion animals comes from people with hands on experience with reptiles and amphibians, problem seems to be there seems to be very few people with hands on experience with reptiles, judging from the count of different people who have been posting here over the last month.
Alledgedly over 2500 reptile people have sent letters to congressmenn before april 23rd, but less than 35 people have been active in here over the past couple of weeks.
When the opposition decides to stop playing dead in an effort to dust off some minor negative attention, expect AR vengence to hit you in the bak of the head like a 30-pound sledge-hammer.
"watchful waiting" strategy is a mystery to me, especially when applied in the middle of the back stabbing festival of the year..
you hiding something?
Share with us the juicy bits plz, don´t keep your thoughts a secret!

regards
oby

No offense taken, friend...

I believe the reason debate is quieting is that there is not much to debate here-on the question of HR669 (defunct or not), or even on the broader question of the AR agenda in the U.S (and our response to it), there isn't really any debate. Even those of us who may have profound disagreements on other points of herp law are pretty united. Breeders, PIJAC, USARK, collectors (even the commercial kind), hobbyists and herp pet owners all have come together in opposition, as evidenced by the outcome of the recent hearing.

I believe the opposition WAS floored, if only temporarily. But they most emphatically WILL be back. We must be prepared to hit them even harder, and soon.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

A lot of us spread the word through emails and forums, sent our own letters, and urged others to do the same. And we called, and called, and called on the phone.

Now we are reading the forums, waiting to hear what the next attack will be and how to best fight it. Some of us are thinking about what we did last time, and how to even better the effort next time, and the time after that, and the time after that. We know that it will never end - unless they kill our hobby / industry altogether.

There isn't a lot to say at the moment. I have read all of the above with great interest, and am discussing it with both herper and non herper friends who just believe in freedom.

We (American herpers) are semi resting now, but when the bell rings, we will all come out swinging..

Lolz, you make funny joke sweet!

"There isn't a lot to say at the moment."

But in the past few days ago people expressed urgent need to gather momentum to face big threat. But, how to to just that?

"We (American herpers) are semi resting now, but when the bell rings..."

Why has the bell stopped ringing?

No doubt the response from the reptile community was an amazing thing, and everyone is to be congratulated. Nothing can take away from that.

However, why rest? Why have a purely reactive strategy for the longer term? IMO, that's a recipe for failure. Why aren't we blitzing the media with letters and phone calls to expose the truth behind these AR wackos and corrupt government "scientists?"

The AR wackos are proactive, why aren't we?

>>A lot of us spread the word through emails and forums, sent our own letters, and urged others to do the same. And we called, and called, and called on the phone.
>>
>>Now we are reading the forums, waiting to hear what the next attack will be and how to best fight it. Some of us are thinking about what we did last time, and how to even better the effort next time, and the time after that, and the time after that. We know that it will never end - unless they kill our hobby / industry altogether.
>>
>>There isn't a lot to say at the moment. I have read all of the above with great interest, and am discussing it with both herper and non herper friends who just believe in freedom.
>>
>>We (American herpers) are semi resting now, but when the bell rings, we will all come out swinging..

In a sense the AR groups have to be proactive because it is the nature of taking away rights. Holding on to what you have is most often a reactive stance, if we are not careful a proactive stance could become a mud slinging deal so we will need to move anything along with great consideration. I guess the best proactive plan would be work towards self regulation of our interest/hobby and there is a very long road in front of something like that.
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

Lance is exactly right.

If you have a better idea obie, feel free to lead the way-we'll be right behind you
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Thanks for the reply. I respect your opinion, but I completely disagree. Of course we would have to have some organization and thought put into a media campaign, I didn't mean to imply a free-for-all. What some of these government "scientists" (ie, Rodda, Snow) have done is inexcusable. It's not even about snakes, it's much bigger than that; it's about abuse of power and corruption. Not only do I think we should address that, we as Americans have an OBLIGATION to address that. If there is some
mudslinging, then so be it.

IMO, a reactive strategy won't work. I just think that people don't have the time for (or will get tired of) writing 300 letters and making dozens of phone calls every 6 months for the next 30 years. While this is a life altering issue for many, for others like me, it's extremely important, but not one of the top 3 priorities in my or my family's life.

Regarding self-regulation, I've seen that mentioned many times, but I don't know what it means. What is it? How would it be implemented? How would it prevent anything that would otherwise have happened without self regulation? Who will make the rules? Will everyone follow the rules? How would it stop the AR wackos from attacking us?

Thanks!
Ed

>>In a sense the AR groups have to be proactive because it is the nature of taking away rights. Holding on to what you have is most often a reactive stance, if we are not careful a proactive stance could become a mud slinging deal so we will need to move anything along with great consideration. I guess the best proactive plan would be work towards self regulation of our interest/hobby and there is a very long road in front of something like that.
>>-----
>>___________________________
>>Herp Conservation Unlimited
>>
>>If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

Falconry is an example of self regulation, for the most part they police themselves (the way they apprentice members etc) and they are not just involved, but frequently invited to participate in any federal or state regulations that will impact them.

And now to be clear I did not say we should limit to a reactive strategy at all, I said it is what we will be dealt. It is the nature of protecting something as opposed to conquering it. Instead we need to keep up our defenses and be ready to respond, and anything we initiate simply needs to be well planned and executed. I for one do not believe that a campaign to attack the architects for AR groups or others with agendas will succeed. With that we will only end up with a dirty fight and may even lose ground in the public (and legislative) eye.

Now what do I think we can do? Well there are some very established herp societies around the country, they should be talking to each other to combine resources and present some ideas. We will never escape the thought that the government needs to be involved for our own good, so we should make our proactive plan to use that as an inroad. In other words we should work with our representatives to draft the legislation before the AR groups do. This will be far more effective in the proactive sense than taking on the AR groups themselves. What will be the challenge there is keeping them from twisting anything we draft into something else... they do have a lot of political connections.

>>Thanks for the reply. I respect your opinion, but I completely disagree. Of course we would have to have some organization and thought put into a media campaign, I didn't mean to imply a free-for-all. What some of these government "scientists" (ie, Rodda, Snow) have done is inexcusable. It's not even about snakes, it's much bigger than that; it's about abuse of power and corruption. Not only do I think we should address that, we as Americans have an OBLIGATION to address that. If there is some
>>mudslinging, then so be it.
>>
>>IMO, a reactive strategy won't work. I just think that people don't have the time for (or will get tired of) writing 300 letters and making dozens of phone calls every 6 months for the next 30 years. While this is a life altering issue for many, for others like me, it's extremely important, but not one of the top 3 priorities in my or my family's life.
>>
>>Regarding self-regulation, I've seen that mentioned many times, but I don't know what it means. What is it? How would it be implemented? How would it prevent anything that would otherwise have happened without self regulation? Who will make the rules? Will everyone follow the rules? How would it stop the AR wackos from attacking us?
>>
>>Thanks!
>>Ed
>>
>>>>In a sense the AR groups have to be proactive because it is the nature of taking away rights. Holding on to what you have is most often a reactive stance, if we are not careful a proactive stance could become a mud slinging deal so we will need to move anything along with great consideration. I guess the best proactive plan would be work towards self regulation of our interest/hobby and there is a very long road in front of something like that.
>>>>-----
>>>>___________________________
>>>>Herp Conservation Unlimited
>>>>
>>>>If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

have input from some reptile breeders. There were even public meetings for herper input, and a lot of discussion. They did finally come up with something that everyone could live with, although I think the $100 annual fee will drive some underground. But it was legislation that wasn't a total ban, and accomplished the goals of stopping impulse buys and marking larger specimens with implants. But that won't make any humaniacs happy - they want total death of the hobby, and won't stop until they get it. It seems incredible that practically as soon as this legislation went into effect, a Florida legislator introduced a proposal for a total ban by the Feds, as if the Florida law means absolutely nothing!

I am not saying not to be proactive, just saying not to expect that it will really stem the tide too much. Unless you are talking to Libertarians, it is really difficult to explain to the non-herping public why we need to have a freedom to do something they don't care about, or actively dislike. Most people seem to care about preserving their own rights, whether guns, smoking, animal keeping, or whatever. But they don't seem too interested in preserving the rights of others. Few seem to see the advantage of defending each others' rights so they will help you when you need it.

I agree that you won't be able to mount a huge letter writing campaign forever. That is why I said to rest up now, and get ready for the next one.

I am not sure what other proactive measures could be taken. As mentioned earlier, you have to be really careful about media attention. They always like sensationalized news - sells better. They can often take whatever story you give them, and turn it into a "scary" reptile story. They edit out the parts you would like to see them keep.

the Florida legislator (Nelson) proposed a total ban of PYTHONS.

the Florida legislator (Nelson) proposed a total ban of PYTHONS.

Then I would say that he supports an agenda, I doubt it is a personal crusade that he came up with on his own.

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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

I don't know him, but I would guess that either he, or the people who convinced him, have an agenda.

My feeling is that quite a bit of this type of legislation is put forth by AR people, and is often supported by academics, who only see the plus side of trying to control ecological problems. The academics are paid by taxes, not by trying to produce something that is salable on the market. So many don't know, or don't care, about trying to make a living in "the real world". In fact, the more wildlife regulation, the more grants will probably be available to them. So there are many academics who will support the extremist AR agenda, whether they agree with the whole agenda or not.

I guess one of the proactive things our side needs to do is to find credible academics who also have an interest in the economic stakes of the problems and solutions proposed. We need some established academics who are willing to try to find answers that balance freedom and economic opportunity vs. "the easy way" of controlling exotics by simple bans, and who will support us in our fight to survive.

All,

Kathy is correct about this. It is good to see other hobbyists realize or admit that academics (not just Rodda and company) have a large role in the banning agenda. I have been saying this for years. Having worked with and for many academics, they also support the pure AR agenda with the only exception being scientific research. They do not want any harvest and any sales. They think people shouldn't keep herps. I worked for one academic in Alabama that couldn't believe that it was legal to collect herps in the state. That's right, she didn't know the herp laws. In defense of academics, some think it is okay to harvest a few (very few) for personal use and they support captive breeding. But they frame this position in such a way that it's akin to having your arms and legs bound. That is, very limited harvest based on the fact that there is no good arguement to allow no harvest. But not a position based in scientific realities (data) and sustainable harvest which is the position they should be supporting. Further, their positions are fraught with mis-use and abuse of the Precautionary Principle.

The Precautionary Principle is what we are fighting against with HR 669 and all herps regulations. This is what Australia used to ban herps there. It was invoked at the sub-committee meeting by the fellow from Israel. It is what is being used for all the turtle banning agenda around the country. They will be using it next for amphibs, lizards and snakes.

Also in defense of academics and agency biologists (puppets of academics) is the fact that law enforcement throws a wrench in most win/win regulations. They don't have the manpower or they just say they can't or won't be able to enforce these win/win regulations. So in order to "protect herps at all cost" the academics and agency biologists easily cave in for banning regulations to get something passed.

Finally, our own fellow hobbyists support the banning agenda when it suits them or doesn't affect them. Some hobbyists buy into the hype pushed by academics. This is evidenced by the turtle ban in Texas supported by snake breeders in Texas. Also evidenced by some turtle owners themselves in comments I reviewed in a petition in support of the turtle ban. Another huge issue within the industry is complacency. I know folks who knew about HR 669 but didn't do anything. Some are lazy, some don't keep exotics and some said, "There is no way that can pass," so they did nothing. And then there is the selling out of the smaller niche breeders by the bigger, warehouse breeders that Crutchfield talked about.

We have no time to sit and rest. They have a 30 year head start on us. Three thousand Reptile Nation participants is great but we can do a lot better, a whole lot better.

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

"It is good to see other hobbyists realize or admit that academics (not just Rodda and company) have a large role in the banning agenda."

I read Kathy's post and nowhere did I see her mention that academics play a LARGE role in any banning agenda. Do you have any legitamate proof for this statement? Facts and figures please. Was there some early life trauma inflicted upon you by a member of academia? Your tired and overgeneralized statements don't help bridge gaps between the two worlds and only further divides those who cannot see past their own ignorance (this applies to all parties concerned).

Flame away as it seems that is your only method of defense.

My good buddy Phil,

Open your mind. Look around you. Read peer-reviewed literature. Aresco and company in Florida, Fitzgerald and company in Texas, Rodda and company USGS, Snow and company south Florida, NSF, Defenders of Wildlife, Ken Dodd and HSUS, Box Turtle Partnership, The Nature Conservancy, AZA, PARC (Model Herp Regs and many members), Jim Staurt NMG&F, Sean Barry Cali somewhere, Bruce Bury northwest, PETA, The guy from Israel that testified at the sub-committee from CITES, The Center for Aquatic Conservation and USFWS. Is that enough for you?

No, I can't quantify but their actions show many are. Can you quantify that they aren't?

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT NELSON IS BAD NEWS. He's a TV hound,loves face time.He's very powerful.If your a Dem, VOTE HIM OUT. Vic

Hi Kathy,

I absolutely agree, the wackos want death to our hobby.
And they will succeed, imo, if we don't fight back and fight
back hard. Fighting back includes PROACTIVELY educating the
public. Every herp owner should commit to two or three educational seminars at a local school. Every herp owner should
rebut any newspaper article that claims Burmese pythons can live in southern New Jersey. Of course it won't be easy, but nothing
will be easy. People from other forums are calling their local
news stations about this, and some have had positive stories done on them. People in India live with cobras, so it's not
impossible for people to learn not to fear snakes. I've done
presentations at my kids' schools, and most kids are not fearful,
but curious. That's why it's important for as many of us to do
educational events and presentations as possible.

As far as corrupt government scientists, I don't understand how we can ignore this. Why do these guys get a free pass to say whatever they want, no matter how ridiculous? If that's the case, we will never win. And forget our hobby, our whole country will go down the toilet.

Thanks,
Ed

>>have input from some reptile breeders. There were even public meetings for herper input, and a lot of discussion. They did finally come up with something that everyone could live with, although I think the $100 annual fee will drive some underground. But it was legislation that wasn't a total ban, and accomplished the goals of stopping impulse buys and marking larger specimens with implants. But that won't make any humaniacs happy - they want total death of the hobby, and won't stop until they get it. It seems incredible that practically as soon as this legislation went into effect, a Florida legislator introduced a proposal for a total ban by the Feds, as if the Florida law means absolutely nothing!
>>
>>I am not saying not to be proactive, just saying not to expect that it will really stem the tide too much. Unless you are talking to Libertarians, it is really difficult to explain to the non-herping public why we need to have a freedom to do something they don't care about, or actively dislike. Most people seem to care about preserving their own rights, whether guns, smoking, animal keeping, or whatever. But they don't seem too interested in preserving the rights of others. Few seem to see the advantage of defending each others' rights so they will help you when you need it.
>>
>>I agree that you won't be able to mount a huge letter writing campaign forever. That is why I said to rest up now, and get ready for the next one.
>>
>>I am not sure what other proactive measures could be taken. As mentioned earlier, you have to be really careful about media attention. They always like sensationalized news - sells better. They can often take whatever story you give them, and turn it into a "scary" reptile story. They edit out the parts you would like to see them keep.

I don't know much about falconry. Is there a huge movement by special interests to ban ownership of falcons? If not, it's not the same situation. I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm trying to understand how "self-regulation" is going to make any difference in stopping the forces against us. I'd appreciate if someone could address my questions. None of the discussions I've seen ever seem to go beyond "we need self regulation" or "it's gonna take a lot of work" rhetoric.

Maybe attacking the corrupt scientists won't succeed (probably nothing will at this point), but self-regulation certainly won't either, since imo it won't do anything to stop the AR nuts and their government buddies. That's, of course, assuming this mythical system of self regulation can ever be implemented and agreed on by everyone in the hobby.

I'm not only talking about directly attacking the AR nuts. I'm also talking about educating the public to stop the hysteria. Everyone of us should go do a presentation at a local school. Or write a letter to a local newspaper countering a stupid article saying pythons will invade 1/3 of the country.

Thanks,
Ed

>>Falconry is an example of self regulation, for the most part they police themselves (the way they apprentice members etc) and they are not just involved, but frequently invited to participate in any federal or state regulations that will impact them.
>>
>>And now to be clear I did not say we should limit to a reactive strategy at all, I said it is what we will be dealt. It is the nature of protecting something as opposed to conquering it. Instead we need to keep up our defenses and be ready to respond, and anything we initiate simply needs to be well planned and executed. I for one do not believe that a campaign to attack the architects for AR groups or others with agendas will succeed. With that we will only end up with a dirty fight and may even lose ground in the public (and legislative) eye.
>>
>>Now what do I think we can do? Well there are some very established herp societies around the country, they should be talking to each other to combine resources and present some ideas. We will never escape the thought that the government needs to be involved for our own good, so we should make our proactive plan to use that as an inroad. In other words we should work with our representatives to draft the legislation before the AR groups do. This will be far more effective in the proactive sense than taking on the AR groups themselves. What will be the challenge there is keeping them from twisting anything we draft into something else... they do have a lot of political connections.
>>
>>
>>>>Thanks for the reply. I respect your opinion, but I completely disagree. Of course we would have to have some organization and thought put into a media campaign, I didn't mean to imply a free-for-all. What some of these government "scientists" (ie, Rodda, Snow) have done is inexcusable. It's not even about snakes, it's much bigger than that; it's about abuse of power and corruption. Not only do I think we should address that, we as Americans have an OBLIGATION to address that. If there is some
>>>>mudslinging, then so be it.
>>>>
>>>>IMO, a reactive strategy won't work. I just think that people don't have the time for (or will get tired of) writing 300 letters and making dozens of phone calls every 6 months for the next 30 years. While this is a life altering issue for many, for others like me, it's extremely important, but not one of the top 3 priorities in my or my family's life.
>>>>
>>>>Regarding self-regulation, I've seen that mentioned many times, but I don't know what it means. What is it? How would it be implemented? How would it prevent anything that would otherwise have happened without self regulation? Who will make the rules? Will everyone follow the rules? How would it stop the AR wackos from attacking us?
>>>>
>>>>Thanks!
>>>>Ed
>>>>
>>>>>>In a sense the AR groups have to be proactive because it is the nature of taking away rights. Holding on to what you have is most often a reactive stance, if we are not careful a proactive stance could become a mud slinging deal so we will need to move anything along with great consideration. I guess the best proactive plan would be work towards self regulation of our interest/hobby and there is a very long road in front of something like that.
>>>>>>-----
>>>>>>___________________________
>>>>>>Herp Conservation Unlimited
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world
>>-----
>>___________________________
>>Herp Conservation Unlimited
>>
>>If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

Fry?

Why fry falcons?
" Is there a huge movement by special interests to ban ownership of falcons? "
Actually I think there is, some of the proponents imclude;

Aresco and company in Florida, Fitzgerald and company in Texas, Rodda and company USGS, Snow and company south Florida, NSF, Defenders of Wildlife, Ken Dodd and HSUS, Box Turtle Partnership, The Nature Conservancy, AZA, PARC (Model Herp Regs and many members), Jim Staurt NMG&F, Sean Barry Cali somewhere, Bruce Bury northwest, PETA, RSPCA (UK), WSPA(Europe), Pro Wildlife(Germany), Dyrevernalliansen (Norway), ENDCAP (Europe) and many more, each country has a bunch of them. Problem is they all cooperate to wreck havoc in national and international legislation, they are kinda like larvae of rhino beetles, chewing tunnels through the ethics of the law.

I think the essence of self regulation is happening right here in this thread, in other forums on kingsnake and on other reptile sites. Self regulation is also baked into most of the herpetological litterature.
Even though reptiles illegal in Norway, there is still a significant degree of self regulation.
You can´t just sell your offspring to any idiot because if he gets caught keeping illegal reptiles, and he rats you out, then you get caught and the whole making of money backfires to the point where all your herps gets confiscated and frozen alive (that is the equivalent of burning mammals alive), and you get a hefty fine, and you are ridiculed in the newspaper, if you live in a small town everyone in town will be talking about you and your whole family behind your backs.
Therefore over the course of friendly debate on reptile forums we have generally come in agreement of code of conduct and through norwegian litterature we define the minimum standards. Since we are all criminals in the eyes of society we cannot rely on police when problems arise. Last year we had a funny guy who threatened to report to the authority several other terrarium folks. This created a tension for several days, no one really wanted to harm the guy but people also felt such threats could not be tolerated. If people got the impression that turning in your fellow reptile keeper can be toerated in our reptile comminity, it wiyld bean the death of thousands and thousands of animals every year. In the end he situation was resolved that time, we were able to talk him to reason. Had he ratted out up to 30 reptile owners, as he claimed, I fear someone would have list his temper and cracked his head open, and everything would have gotten much worse.
I think self regulation also comes through the voice of all participants in a forum, they either inspire someone to answer them or sometimes contemplate on how things should be.

For instance, do you believe that animals have rights?

Regards
oby

I don´t mean to attack you personally, nor do I have an interest in insulting you.
I have no interest in wasting your time or or making things more difficult than they need to be.
Still, do you believe that animals should have rights or not? please answer.

I find the idea of animal rights is appealing in theory, many folks do, also many reptile owners.
If you owned a patch f forest which contained the whole free ranging population of a certain threatened frog species, I would argue that you have no right to chop down your own forest under pretense that frogs have a right to live free.

Peace
oby

Maybe I seem over the top, extreme in my oppinions, only, in my experience The government has been oppressing a minority in our society, which happens to have a diverse interest in foreign animals.
The US government is sponsoring injustice, in that rediculous bans are passed in some states. Granted some herps need to be restricted in some areas of the US to reduce risk of invasive species, a lot of bans, or several at least are passed already. These bans undermine the people´s right to engage in a diverse responsible and sustainable bioculture.
I understand some herps are banned in texas, and there are some more bans on the way, but how many are already in effect? How many irresponsible reptile and other exotic animal bans and regulations are there already in state legislations?
It is my impression that there is a civilised form of whitch hunt going on in the US.
In certain states many animals are outlawed without a good reason, I do not have the experience to rant them up but I expect some folks here could. Dog bans, cat bans, fish bans, transpostation restrictions and now with HR669 variants a distant threat in the horison has become a clear and present danger which is not likely to go away easily in the future.
If we have to spend a considerable amount of time fighting our own beauracracy, in order so safe guard our right to safe guard the existence of amphibians and reptiles in vivarium, we have wasted a considerable amount of time, which could have been used to promote conservation.
If examined more closely, the AR-même acts as an inhibitor on conservation efforts in our society. This is a wake up call for responsibe herpetoculturists, at present half of the worlds reptile species and up to 2/3 of amphibian species are threatened with extinction. Within our life time we may experience that these numbers rise still, hopefully not.
We really really need to address ethics in husbandry and focus on conservation, but first we must defeat titanic organisations who seek to end our conservation efforts. In the mean time every year new species of lizards & frogs croak out of existence.
The Police and the government should work with us, not against us.
We also have a corresponding duty to participate in descisionmaking and conservation.
Still, if an individual of an extinct-in-the-wiild (EW) species can be considered a tome of diversity, then the US government should not approve of the confiscations and burning, freezing or in other manner killing peoples animals without a good reason.
How many illegal reptiles are being confiscated from various states with out a good reason?

regards
oby

Some members of the Federal government are on the agenda list but as whole .........

Over the years the Federal government has been pretty good to the exotic animal trade. Some individuals have taken personal beatings at the hand of the feds and at times the action could be considered questionable. For the most part the guys that got in trouble and some of them multiple times had it coming . Their own greed , arrogance and stupidity is what landed them on the receiving end of the Federal hammer. The thing is all of these guys were able to get back in the game after paying the piper. This is because the Feds were never all that hot to shut us down and there were times when they could have been very hard on the industry but did the right thing.

Our current problems are a combination of the growth of activist groups. They have been steadily gaining power both financially and via various contacts both personal and political(mostly state level ). Along with the participation of specific members of the pet industry itself. If the Feds weren't dragged into this they wouldn't have done anything. Now that are involved there going to be coerced and pressured. The problem is if key members from " Our " side are agreeing that bans or other various restrictions are their right course of action their going to go for it.

Ernie Eison

WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

Some members of government?
Try entire government sections. SPCA animal police and what not! But, some animal police is justified.
When a irresponsible ban is passed, society as a whole acts as a tyrant towards the responsible herpetoculturist.

Best wishes
oby

We do need to reduce risk of invasive species but we need not constrict animal husbandry down into a bare minimum of diversity, that would be an unresponsible and inconsiderate act towards animals and a disrespect to their inherent value.

Peace
obeligz

For starters the SPCA is not a government organization. It`s private.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

The SPCA is funding certain corrupt government officials, either with money, or publicity, or political power...

The list is really longer... Why do you think AR websites frequently lack personalia, they are "Half hidden away" non profit organizations in defense of animal rights..

regards
oby

Yes I know, I'm glad to see your getting it a lot of people here don't . I did say ( Some members of the Federal government , via various contacts both personal and political(mostly state level ). The truth is overall the federal government has been very fair to the exotic animal trade. I hope that doesn't change.

In the past . I've posted an enormous amount of information involving the political ties between activist groups , academics the key players and methodology. I've been at it for decades I know every trick . I've shown which politicians and academe are tied to which groups, funding sources, etc.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

Michael Vick in Talks to Become PETA Spokesman

Published: May 01, 2009

NEW YORK (AdAge.com) -- Michael Vick is in talks to become the new spokesman for PETA.

Yes, you read that correctly. The disgraced one-time NFL superstar serving prison time for funding an illegal dog-fighting ring is primed to do public-service ads for People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals upon his release later this month. According to three people with knowledge of the matter, the proposed endorsement is part of a comprehensive PR scheme aimed at rehabilitating the quarterback's image and gaining him readmission to the league that banned him from playing.

- http://adage.com/article?article_id=136403

Thats about crazy but He has no choice he has to beg his way back into the NFL.

Vick was way overrated as a QB. I don't know how good his dogs were.

It's all a game Peta will do anything for a headline. Pam Anderson was the guest of honor at the Grande opening of a new STEAK house and Petas official statement was that they were cool with it. Pam is a huge spokes person for them their not going to rag on her. Peta stand for nothing but making money. They know like PT Barnum that there's a sucker born every minute.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

PETA stands for People
Eating
Tasty
Animals
LOL
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Vick's still got a good arm. He can probably toss a poodle about 60 yards....

Before we blitz the media we have to gather ammunition so that we can shoot the enemy in the head. I think we will find significant ammo deposit in confronting the mad scientists. there is nothing I would like more than to bleep a mad scientist in the bleep but I fear I lack credibility and knowledge but I trust at least some folks in here have a friend who has a friend who knows a veritable herpetologist who has genuine experience and diploma in "true science", as opposed to "false propaganda", wich seeks to end the existence of vivarium reptiles in the US!

I think you are right though, if we cannot discredit mad scientists ourselves we can at least try to identify them, that is ammunition to our cause.
In Norway Most often I find mad scientists through reading the sources in theor documents, wherever sources of litterature are cited, there are some mad scientists involved in me experience. Normally the further I investigate into their sources, and their sources sources, the more bleep I find.
The lack of science in AR litterature is often profound, almost as much as the indifference most animal owners have towards animal rights activism.

Is there some scientific basis to NRIP? is there a need to involve science in NRIP?

Playing devils advocate again, I am not convinced mites should be illegal, they are an important part of diversity and they do have a function in ecology. I have had mites on several of my animals in the past. In the beginning I removed mites but then I stopped and my animals didn´t appear to feel much discomfort and they didn´t loose health.

I am talking about marginal cases here, so please bear with me. In a commercial snake breeding facility it would sound like a less bright idea to introduce mites but looking at Lygodactylus geckoes though, the case could be different.

I got from a friend a group of 6 Lygodactylus lutepicturatus who had mites around throat, neck and some around hind legs. They were also generally in a bad shape and I have bad experience with de-mite-ing weak geckoes so I put them in my viv to fatten up a bit first. Gex loved the viv and ate like raptors right away and basked alot in the day. 3-4 months later the geckoes were healthy, strong and active and the population of mites living on them had reduced in size and stabilised.

I think in a vivarium where food is abundant, one gecko can easily eat enough food for itself and 102 mites. Mites can transmit pathogens from one individual to the other but reptiles should also have a healthy immune system which can handle the natural threats in their native environment. Mites are predators which are not necessarily dangerous to the reptile who lives in a roomy naturalistic vivarium. My vivarium 150x60x100cm and contained at the time 8 lygodactylus in total in addition to arrow frog. In addition to the 6 lugodactylus lutepicturatus I had a pair of young Lygodactylus williamsii who were mite free before the arrival of the others.
In the period of 3-4 months where I kept the two species toghether the male williamsii caught some few mites around the neck, the female never caught mites. A few months of after I sold the group of lutepicturatus, both williamsii were mite free and I haven´t treated them for mites. (Please read in to this topic and consult with your local reptile forum _before_ experimenting with mites in your own animals.)

I suspect either the mites were species specific, or something in my viv killed off most of the mites all the time, could happen, 2 small gex in big planted terra. Or perhaps geckoes developed behavior to reduce mites themselves? topic for another debate.

My point is, In the naturalistic vivarium, mites are a small but essential part of the big picture since they are a small but essential part in ecology. They are a healthy stimulus of geckoes immune system and mites can weed out weak animals some times.
Also tropical gecko mites who live on specific tropical geckoes do not really pose a threat to the kingsnakes in Texas.
Do we really need to ban mites all over? I guess, if we must there should be room for compromise, but I am strongly against a total blanket ban on mites.

Kindest regards
oby

Yes, I agree with you. If we let government scientists say whatever bs they want without holding them to any type of
standard, what hope is there?

Thanks,
Ed

>>Before we blitz the media we have to gather ammunition so that we can shoot the enemy in the head. I think we will find significant ammo deposit in confronting the mad scientists. there is nothing I would like more than to bleep a mad scientist in the bleep but I fear I lack credibility and knowledge but I trust at least some folks in here have a friend who has a friend who knows a veritable herpetologist who has genuine experience and diploma in "true science", as opposed to "false propaganda", wich seeks to end the existence of vivarium reptiles in the US!
>>
>>I think you are right though, if we cannot discredit mad scientists ourselves we can at least try to identify them, that is ammunition to our cause.
>>In Norway Most often I find mad scientists through reading the sources in theor documents, wherever sources of litterature are cited, there are some mad scientists involved in me experience. Normally the further I investigate into their sources, and their sources sources, the more bleep I find.
>>The lack of science in AR litterature is often profound, almost as much as the indifference most animal owners have towards animal rights activism.
>>
>>Is there some scientific basis to NRIP? is there a need to involve science in NRIP?
>>
>>Playing devils advocate again, I am not convinced mites should be illegal, they are an important part of diversity and they do have a function in ecology. I have had mites on several of my animals in the past. In the beginning I removed mites but then I stopped and my animals didn´t appear to feel much discomfort and they didn´t loose health.
>>
>>I am talking about marginal cases here, so please bear with me. In a commercial snake breeding facility it would sound like a less bright idea to introduce mites but looking at Lygodactylus geckoes though, the case could be different.
>>
>>I got from a friend a group of 6 Lygodactylus lutepicturatus who had mites around throat, neck and some around hind legs. They were also generally in a bad shape and I have bad experience with de-mite-ing weak geckoes so I put them in my viv to fatten up a bit first. Gex loved the viv and ate like raptors right away and basked alot in the day. 3-4 months later the geckoes were healthy, strong and active and the population of mites living on them had reduced in size and stabilised.
>>
>>I think in a vivarium where food is abundant, one gecko can easily eat enough food for itself and 102 mites. Mites can transmit pathogens from one individual to the other but reptiles should also have a healthy immune system which can handle the natural threats in their native environment. Mites are predators which are not necessarily dangerous to the reptile who lives in a roomy naturalistic vivarium. My vivarium 150x60x100cm and contained at the time 8 lygodactylus in total in addition to arrow frog. In addition to the 6 lugodactylus lutepicturatus I had a pair of young Lygodactylus williamsii who were mite free before the arrival of the others.
>>In the period of 3-4 months where I kept the two species toghether the male williamsii caught some few mites around the neck, the female never caught mites. A few months of after I sold the group of lutepicturatus, both williamsii were mite free and I haven´t treated them for mites. (Please read in to this topic and consult with your local reptile forum _before_ experimenting with mites in your own animals.)
>>
>>I suspect either the mites were species specific, or something in my viv killed off most of the mites all the time, could happen, 2 small gex in big planted terra. Or perhaps geckoes developed behavior to reduce mites themselves? topic for another debate.
>>
>>My point is, In the naturalistic vivarium, mites are a small but essential part of the big picture since they are a small but essential part in ecology. They are a healthy stimulus of geckoes immune system and mites can weed out weak animals some times.
>>Also tropical gecko mites who live on specific tropical geckoes do not really pose a threat to the kingsnakes in Texas.
>>Do we really need to ban mites all over? I guess, if we must there should be room for compromise, but I am strongly against a total blanket ban on mites.
>>
>>Kindest regards
>>oby
>>

Hope can never disappear entirely, as long as there are mites around, there will always be some shred of hope left. In norway home lives in the safety and well being of your terrariums, and in reading newspapers, debating in forum and writing to stupid newspapers when they are condemning you in public attention.
Hope also lives in the support and empathy of your personal friends and family.
I think we all need a higher degree of empathy for each other.
If we do not weigh the interests of our own species and the interests of other species equally, we are behaving like speciesists!
As long a there are good terrariumsfolk around any irresponsible herp ban in any country can only be temporary for as long there is hope, there is always a fair chance that victory for the mites will prevail!

Best wishes
oby

published today in Online edition of bergerns tidende (Bergen newspaper);

A frightened couple Wrote the police and the newspapers regarding snakes on a roof.

"bt.no of course threw themselves imediately over the case. Judging by the pictures, these could absolutely be dangerous reptiles, we thought."

The snakes were chilling out on the roof but the couple didn´t know if they were alive. the newspaper found out that the land owner had spread out rubber snakes on the roof to scare away pigeons, only, it didn´t work. The Pigeons weren frightened by the rubber cobras, but the neighbours apparently were!

Se more images in teh article, they were supplied to the newspaper by the concearned neighbours.

- http://www.bt.no/lokalt/bergen/article839602.ece

- http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132491

Please don't assume that just because things are not sizzling on the forums that there is nothing going on. There are things going on behind the scenes that could be monumental in their proportion... and what they will mean to the Herp community! This is Life or Death for the Hobbyist Breeder. We all need to be very careful about our next PROACTIVE steps.... careful in that we need to focus our efforts where they will be the most productive. Even though our last effort was huge, many were sent off chasing Red Herrings. We are learning and assimilating... and calculating our next moves. The Reptile Nation needs to realize this is NOT over. Prepare yourselves for massive and decisive action. The fight is coming!
-----
Andrew Wyatt
President USARK

It occurs to me that one probable AR tactic might be to send "disguised" posters on to reptile forums in an attempt to goad us into rash actions which would be contrary to our interests - and serve to generate publicity which would benefit them?
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

this forum and all of its comments,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, so do our opponents,,,,,,,,,,, give that some thought.
-----
Proud supporter of USARK and Kingsnake.com
“We stand together or we fall apart”

Kyle
www.royalvariations.com

"be safe, be happy and dont let anyone make you afraid"
David Coverdale

You GO Brad!
-----
Todd Hughes

Andrew;
"Please don't assume that just because things are not sizzling on the forums that there is nothing going on."

I think all people reading this forum, especially are aware that there is magic brewing behind the scenes on our side.
I can only begin to imagine how much effort went into breaking HR669 so far.
The 50.000 letters written to congressmen are only the tip of the iceberg that represents the effort responsible reptile keepers has put into halting HR669 so far.
Behind these letters lie at least 50.000 e-mails back and forth, a 22 times more demanding effort, since e-mails are sent to a single recipient and contain a unique rephrase of thoughts. This fight has been so much more than a 100.000 letters, there is lobbying around, forum and blogwriting, research, journalism, reorganisation, planning, organisation, participation and surely more I have forgot.
Yet, a tiny fraction of the people in the joint initiative, have sacrificed the largest portion of their time, while the others have just pitched in a little in comparison. No matter how little you may have pitched into the effort so far, yours has been a very valuable addition. There is no way to count the hours spent by the reptile nation in contemplation over this scary trend in society, that herpetoculture is on the brink of collapse in the US of today.
A good proactive effort would be lowering tolerance of indifference.
This thing should be a concern to a lot more herpetoculturists, the ones who participate here, in other forums or through other channels are nor the problem.
I din´t mean to appeal for massive partisipation in this forum, only in general It should not be tolerated that herpetoculturists treat this topic with dis-interest or indifference.

Best wishes
oby

Andrew,

1. Has USARK tried to contact the 20-30 monthly herp show organizers in order to possibly solicit a petition signed by attendees as they walk through the turnstiles? Worded in a non-scare language, huge numbers of names could be added to some kind of unified petition. Herp show organizers surely know that the writing is on the wall for them if a bill like 669 passed.

2. A fair amount of dollars are generated and given away (to mainly herp conservation) by some of the larger herp venues every year. Have these venues been contributors to USARK?

3. There are a fair amount of academics that got their start as hobbyists. Some still dabble in exotics like Neil Ford at UT Tyler. I'm not sure if others still maintain herps (like Dante Fenelio), but some significant studies have involved exotic herps obtained through the pet trade (W. Cooper in his chemosensory studies for instance). Have herp friendly academics been contacted for position statements? (like ARAV veterinarians did with their position letter)

4. It was nice to see the New England Aquarium (I believe that was the institution) come out with a position statement, but what about other AZA affiliated institutions? The zoo that I worked at probably received 70-80% of their exotic herps through the pet trade. With the fairly high attrition rate (yes, many zoos lose fair numbers of herps) that zoo experience, the total erradication of the animal trade would severly restrict and limit many zoo herp departments.

5. I, like everyone else, think that while the response to HR669 was great, the reality is that only the tip of the iceberg actually responded and wrote letters or called.

swiss

(I tried to send this on the 30th but it apparently got lost in cyberspace??)

"2. A fair amount of dollars are generated and given away (to mainly herp conservation) by some of the larger herp venues every year. Have these venues been contributors to USARK? "

Maybe the organizations that benefit from our donations and auctions at herp expos should be willing to provide a position statement that they support US. If they don't support us, and are not willing to state that they do when we need it, then perhaps our dollars should go to those organizations that WILL help us survive.

I wasn't necesarily talking about the organizations that receive the dollars, but the actual promoters/venues themselves. Without exotics, many of the larger herp shows would probably fold. Is it not in their best interests to support this fight with some big bucks? (Maybe they do already?)

Likewise, would it not benefit USARK to offer a scaled down "complimentary" membership to the hundreds of casual herpers that may attend these expos? I'm strictly talking about boosting membership in USARK in order to give USARK increased credibility with opponents. Many of these part time "closet" herpers probably wouldn't spend the money for a "full" membership, but for USARK's cause, strength comes with numbers.

On another front, I was dismayed by the total lack of HR669 headlines or even acknowledgement on many herp websites (HCU-TX, SE Venomous, etc.)! Explanations?

Swiss

I was wondering about the same thing.
I hadn´t heard anything about it until beginning of april, but I must also admit that I haven´t bothered to check up on US legislation lately even though I recieve the rexano mailing list.
http://www.rexano.org/
I think every country in Europe should have a couple of geeks who can relay changes and threats in legislation from abroad.
HR669 has been announced for some time in the US and in some channels it has been announced many times, only too often the message dies in transmission across the pond. Even in Europe bans like this are often passed unannounced. Even if announced there may still be little or no reaction, at least it´s like that over here.

So far this topic is receiving very little attention and gathering very little interest in Norway. No one bothers to ask a question or give an oppinion, most people just don´t care about this. I have to provoke to keep some keep debate going and keep topic alive. There are 5 threads about HR669 in 3 different reptile foums who have about 5000 unique members in total in our country. Only 2 of the 5 threads are still active and activity consists in 1 post every 2 days or perhaps up to 2 posts per day.
I expect some very few norwegians are reading through ate least some of these threads but I am sorry to report that I have not been able to recruit any meaningful amount of support from Norway so far..

I also think that HR669 should have been announced internationally at an earlier time. It´s not enough to send the message from Pijac and dow the back channels. Messages like this should be lobbied by the hobby enthusiasts from one forum to the next imo.

Regards
oby

An Action Plan on Invasive Species
Download: NECIS Action Plan
- http://www.ucsusa.org/assets/documents/invasive_species/NECIS-brochure.pdf

The impacts of invasive species go well beyond a local site or a single state. Countless expert reports from public and private groups have brought attention to these impacts and called for federal action to address invasive species problems. To date, progress has been woefully inadequate. However, there are opportunities to act. We call upon President Obama and the 111th Congress to immediately take the following steps to benefit our nation:

1. Screen intentional imports
2. Prevent inadvertent introductions
3. Fund early detection and response
4. Create and support federal leadership
5. Fill other funding gaps

- http://www.ucsusa.org/invasive_species/solutions/NECIS-action-plan.html