Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I believe that a NEW version of this bill HR669 will be introduced very soon. After a LOT of searching both online and orally, I believe that NRIP will be the compromise offered by some in OUR OWN INDUSTRY. This stands for National Reptile Improvement Plan, and THIS IS NOT GOOD for the average Herper.

I would like to go on record as saying I'M OPPOSED TO NRIP AND EVERYTHING ASSOCIATED WITH IT. This would "white list" certain species to be bred under certain conditions and only financially benefit some "snake and gecko mills" and not allow for investment herp breeders or Joe Herper who breeds a few herps he likes and sells offspring to finance his hobby.

While this bill could very well benefit me, I WILL NOT DESERT MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN THIS INDUSTRY FOR MY PERSONAL GAIN!!! NRIP has been secretly in the works for over two years, and I don't believe in coincidences. I'm enclosing a link and would encourage all of you to read it and decide for yourselves. NRIP even casts a bad light on internet sales and reptile shows.

I woke up this morning and feel like I'm in the old Pogo Comic Strip where one of them says "I have met the enemy, and he is us." All of this seems to about some making a LOT OF MONEY, but then most things are about money.

Hang on you rodent breeders, there is a "NATIONAL RODENT IMPROVEMENT PLAN" out there that will have similar consequences. Thanks for reading this.

NRIP MEETING

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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Tom,

Thanks for the info. If you find out anymore please post and give us details.

Chris Nicholas

Go to

www.pijac.org and read about the NRIP. From what I have read, its will alienate numerous breeder/hobbyists. Simple put its seems its goal is to monopolize the reptile industry so that only a few breeders would be able to do business.

Thanks,

Chris Nicholas

Thanks Tom and Chris, this is unfortunate news. I wonder whatever
happened to being able to do what you want with the things you
have. This is so saddening. The Gov't obviously wants to tax us
big time like they do with cigs, so they can make money. Our
world is going to the dumps in no time if we keep letting the
'MAN' bully us around. How can I be of help?? I have a voice and
am not afraid to use it.......

I originally posted my thoughts far more eloquently .Then proceeded to
hit the wrong button ,LOL -vanished into thin air.

The information about " NRIP ' on PIJAC website is pretty much all wrapped up in the last Paragraph. Its about a few self appointed people deciding what's best for the Reptile hobby and other animal based hobby's. Its about a few people deciding the best way to get into the pockets / bank accounts of the Reptile Industry.The way they plan to do this is through regulation. The Link Tom C left is a pod cast going into great detail about invasive species introduction and making their argument a " science based report ". They proclaim Why these species/animals(Pets) need to be regulated because of the possible harm they can cause from release or through parasitic release into existing "CB" populations etc...

Here is the PIJAC paragraph that explains " NRIP ".

>>>The National Reptile Improvement Plan (NRIP), a program to improve practices of persons involved in importation, sale or captive breeding of reptilian and amphibian species, was designed by individuals with expertise in importing, captive breeding, retail store operations, entomology, and veterinary medicine. The Plan is aimed at minimizing the risk of international or interstate movement of reptiles causing harm to the reptiles, livestock or the environment. Participation in the Plan is voluntary and available for persons that meet or exceed NRIP standards. The NRIP is designed to provide a cooperative Industry-State-Federal program that is a self-directed, self-regulated program that includes adoption and implementation of Best Management Practices, a quality assurance program, and independent verification through periodic inspections. While the Plan involves self-regulation, it works in cooperation with and under the guidance and approval of USDA-APHIS-VS and appropriate state authorities
- - - -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
Everyone needs to listen to the Link Tom C left .
This pod cast is a detailed in depth explanation of their argument and implementation
of their ideas through a " science based " argument.

Invasive Exotics Prevention: Successful Prevention of Invasives from Anthropogenic Pathways -
This means animals released by or introduced through humans.
How will this be achieved through " Self Regulation ".In other words if you don't self regulate
you cannot receive the permit required under these standards to conduct business and sell animals.
This is how I interpret this idea.

Listen to Tom C's Link below very informative

. . . Lar M
NRIP explained 35th Annual Natural Resources Conference

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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

The thing many people don't understand is that the activist aren't trying to attack or bargain with the big players in the animal trade . THEIR REPRESENTING THEM.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

ERNIE YOU HAVE HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD...I REFUSE TO CONDONE IT AND WILL FIGHT IT UNTO THE END EVEN THOUGH I COULD BENEFIT FROM IT FINANCIALLY.....ERNIE WAS GIVING YOU CLUES FOR SOME TIME. I WOULD LIKE TO ADD THIS CONCLUSION BY BOTH OF US WAS ARRIVED AT WITHOUT ANY CONTACT BETWEEN US EXCEPT FOR POST ON FORUMS....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Both of you have done many things to pioneer this hobby/business for all who enjoy it...thank you!

That is a sad spin but true Ernie, follow the money.

Tom your stance on not wanting anything to do with this even though it would benefit you speaks volumes about your character.

Joel
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Don't tread on me!

Tom ,Ernie Next question ,LOL I've been very leery from the beginning.
Now after reading website info on Habitattitude and listening to the pod cast from the other folks.
I have to ask your feelings on this area / issue.
Is the " Advisory Council " out to help the small and mid size Reptile breeder ,
Boa breeder in my case ,Or just the larger entities ,your feelings?
I'm Certainly beginning to believe my interests may not be well served by the " Advisory Council "

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

" PetSmart will be represented at the hearing by the Pet Industry Joint Advisory Committee"

To me all things considered this would seem to be a bit of a conflict in interest. Dogs and cats pay Pijacs bills not reptiles. I find it a bit disturbing that someone acting as our mediator is being paid by the other side.

The chains know that it would be legally impossible for them to introduce legislation that would adversely effect their competitors , what they can do is offer their ample support if " Someone else " introduces legislation that adversely effects their competitors on behalf of protecting our nations environment . It's a smart move. The idea is to introduce a loop-sided bill then push this into law by creating the appearance that we all agree on it.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

Who are these" Big Players"? We need to stop supporting them now and put a face with the ones backing this monopoly in the making. I have bought alot of highend snakes from some well known big breeders and it would be like getting stabbed in the back to find out that they are some of the ones in support of or being represented by the activist behind this new legislation.
Thanks for all of the information.

Marcus Williams

FOLLOW THE MONEY......Read carefully and follow the money trail....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

ie the whole concept.....

Big players through this NRIP establishing a monopoly on the reptile trade. Think about it, if they were successful, it would kill ALL but lower end pet trade. Who besides the insanely rich would drop serious coin on an animal "just to have one" without at least the possibility of making more to offset the initial cost? Last I checked, the big players are into higher dollar animals and typically working with the latest stuff and new combinations.

Am I missing something?
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Who The "activist's" are I have read the mission and posistion statements on the USARK website...I support and agree 100% I truly feel they have the reptile keepers best interest in mind.

I do not know enough about PIJAC to form an opinion, so as stated in a previous post that the activist's are representing the "big boys" seemed a little vague to me as to who supports or represent who.

I would think that these so called big boys will NOT be the larger breeders of high end reptiles but that it would be the big chain pet stores and maybe some high volume breeders and dealers that are being referred to.

The last thing that needs to happen right now is division amongst us, realize that it is NOT the breeder of the high end morph or locale boas that is a threat...no one there is setting up to stab you in the back, take a breath and think about it.

Again I support USARK and encourage you to read through the mission & posistion statements on their home page, then please join the organization.

Joel Thomas
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Don't tread on me!

I agree with everything you said, Joel, but why can't we just get it out in the open so there is no confusion? Maybe there is a good reason to keep things secret, and I understand people should do their own research and come to their own conclusions, but it comes at the expense of confusing people. That's exactly the reason I haven't joined any group or organization. I don't trust anyone anymore, since it's hard to tell where anyone stands.

As far as I can tell, PIJAC will benefit financially, assuming the fees (or some of the fees) still go to them. Other than that, I guess Petco and Petsmart might benefit if, through a combination of "invasive species" rules and pain-in-the-ass restrictions/fees, the trade for reptiles other than corn snakes, king snakes, and geckos were effectively wiped out via
restrictions on internet sales and shows. Maybe they think herpers would rather have a corn snake rather than nothing??? And their suppliers/breeders will benefit. I'm not saying I agree with the logic behind it all, but is this what's going on? Anyone know who Petco's and Petsmart's breeders/suppliers are?

And, of course, the federal government will benefit since this will create a whole new bureaucracy at the expense of private sector employment/income.

Thanks,
Ed

>>Who The "activist's" are I have read the mission and posistion statements on the USARK website...I support and agree 100% I truly feel they have the reptile keepers best interest in mind.
>>
>>I do not know enough about PIJAC to form an opinion, so as stated in a previous post that the activist's are representing the "big boys" seemed a little vague to me as to who supports or represent who.
>>
>>I would think that these so called big boys will NOT be the larger breeders of high end reptiles but that it would be the big chain pet stores and maybe some high volume breeders and dealers that are being referred to.
>>
>>The last thing that needs to happen right now is division amongst us, realize that it is NOT the breeder of the high end morph or locale boas that is a threat...no one there is setting up to stab you in the back, take a breath and think about it.
>>
>>Again I support USARK and encourage you to read through the mission & posistion statements on their home page, then please join the organization.
>>
>>Joel Thomas
>>-----
>>
>>
>>Don't tread on me!

I signed up for the USARK news letter via e-mail last year I followed closely what information was coming to me and cross checked against other sources and found it to be very accurate.

Before I actually took on a paid membership I read every word on their home page and compared it to the information they had been sending me and it too checked out 100% no smoke and mirrors.

as far as confusion you nailed it it does create division as people get their information from different sources and even if they are from the same I may interpret differently from you.

I am convinced that USARK has our hobbies best interest in mind and I can be hard to convince. They certainly are completely focused on reptiles where PIJAC wears many hats and most all of them are larger that the one for our community.

I am in no way saying PIJAC does not help us they are just not as specific as USARK.

We need people like you to join the USARK...you have an opinion and more importantly a voice! Seriously Ed if you have not already done so read through the mission and posistion statements and maybe sighn up for their e-mails I think you will be impressed.

Great talking to you.

Joel Thomas
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Don't tread on me!

Hi Ed ,

As I see it , This is as basic as it can be laid out,

The big chains call the shots in the pet trade. These company's are untouchable.

The chains are massive multi billion dollar corporations that don't just play it by ear and hope it all works out. They pay millions of dollars to corporate head hunters , form detailed marketing strategies , calculate every move. etc. It's all mapped out well in advance.

They are against us . The activist groups ask these chains for they want and the chains tell them what they can have.

The Activist groups are paid by the chains. Petco OPENLY supports them.

Pijac is paid by the chains. Pijac was chosen to represent PetSmart at the HR669 hearing. PetSmart is against us and Pijac was there representing them ...........that's pretty black and white.

The chains various suppliers are paid or owned by them . With exception of the major pet food company's the chains tell their suppliers to jump and the suppliers say how high.

A far reptile suppliers they have various sources and none of them mean anything .

I can tell you that ,

one of the biggest guys specializes in bread and butter pet trade stuff and that's all he wants to protect. He's more then willing to give everything else away. Word is he's already working on it. He happens to be on Pijacs board ..................

If it looks like we're playing against a stacked deck... we are but like I said before. The system is set up so the big guys can't just legislatively bully the small guys out of the game.

It's not going to be easy for them if the private guys stick to our guns and don't give it to them. It's important not to get scared into thinking we have to give things up just because someone says we should. No matter who's saying it.

Over the years I think the Feds have been pretty decent so we're still very much alive. It can't be over stated how important all those letters and phone calls were.

Our opposition has been adamant about shutting the whole thing down to save our environment . If they think they can win out right why would they ever offer us a deal ? We have nothing to lose by calling their bluff.....they want us to give it away.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

>>Our opposition has been adamant about shutting the whole thing down to save our environment . If they think they can win out right why would they ever offer us a deal ? We have nothing to lose by calling their bluff.....they want us to give it away

That is the bottom line! thanks for you insight.

Joel
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Don't tread on me!

Hi Ernie,

Thanks for the information. You don't have to worry about me
compromising on anything or staying quiet. I'm completely against any regulations and/or bans on any non-venomous snakes, especially on a Federal level. And I take this position because I feel it is ethically correct to oppose such corruption and bad law, not because I own any large constrictors. (I actually don't have, nor do I want to own, a large constrictor. Heck, I only own three snakes, and two of them are not non-native.) I've had some pretty heated arguments with other herpers who support regulating large constrictors or throwing large constrictor owners under the bus completely with outright bans. It's pretty discouraging to say the least.

I have more questions, but I'll hold off and try to figure out things myself a little more. Well, I'll ask one. Do you feel the new bill will include all reptile species, not just non-native ones?

Thanks!
Ed

>>Hi Ed ,
>>
>> As I see it , This is as basic as it can be laid out,
>>
>> The big chains call the shots in the pet trade. These company's are untouchable.
>>
>> The chains are massive multi billion dollar corporations that don't just play it by ear and hope it all works out. They pay millions of dollars to corporate head hunters , form detailed marketing strategies , calculate every move. etc. It's all mapped out well in advance.
>>
>>They are against us . The activist groups ask these chains for they want and the chains tell them what they can have.
>>
>>
>>The Activist groups are paid by the chains. Petco OPENLY supports them.
>>
>>Pijac is paid by the chains. Pijac was chosen to represent PetSmart at the HR669 hearing. PetSmart is against us and Pijac was there representing them ...........that's pretty black and white.
>>
>>The chains various suppliers are paid or owned by them . With exception of the major pet food company's the chains tell their suppliers to jump and the suppliers say how high.
>>
>>
>> A far reptile suppliers they have various sources and none of them mean anything .
>>
>> I can tell you that ,
>>
>>one of the biggest guys specializes in bread and butter pet trade stuff and that's all he wants to protect. He's more then willing to give everything else away. Word is he's already working on it. He happens to be on Pijacs board ..................
>>
>> If it looks like we're playing against a stacked deck... we are but like I said before. The system is set up so the big guys can't just legislatively bully the small guys out of the game.
>>
>> It's not going to be easy for them if the private guys stick to our guns and don't give it to them. It's important not to get scared into thinking we have to give things up just because someone says we should. No matter who's saying it.
>>
>> Over the years I think the Feds have been pretty decent so we're still very much alive. It can't be over stated how important all those letters and phone calls were.
>>
>>
>> Our opposition has been adamant about shutting the whole thing down to save our environment . If they think they can win out right why would they ever offer us a deal ? We have nothing to lose by calling their bluff.....they want us to give it away.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Ernie Eison
>>WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.
>>
>>

I can't say that I KNOW you are correct, but what you just explained sounds very logical and concise.

I also agree with Dave's comments about the "big breeders." I can't believe any of the high end larger breeders would be in favor of any restrictions to this industry - they make most of their money based on private individuals like all of us wanting to have our own collections and being able to openly and legally breed.

That's why I think Ernie is correct. I believe the real division is between the "pet industry" which caters to the average person who just wants to buy a hamster or cornsnake for their kids and the more "true herpers" who wants to have much much more.

Personally, I am very committed to my boas at this point and can't imagine my hobby ending regardless of what the laws became. I would be prepared to breed my own feeders if needed and visit friends from around the US to "share" animals. obviously the hobby would be different than it is now, but I'm not going into a panic about it. I'm still trying to acquire a few more animals for some future projects.

I would like to hear more calm discussion about what's going on with the new proposed leglislation but I don't think any level of "paranoia" or "secrecy" is going to help at this point.

just my thoughts....

Patrick Metz

Petcos main supplier is Bill Brant. He is more then likely the largest producer of Corn Snakes in the world. He produces thousands and thousnads of them every year and when I say thousands, well, it's a six digit number. He also supplies them with Ball Pythons and that is also a huge number. Bill does some buying from Eugene Bassett and he produces mass quantites of Corn Snakes and Ball Pythons also. These guys are in the Gainsville, fl. area.

I am in no way saying that these people are up to something. I am only sharing some information on who supplies Petco.

I am in no way saying that these people that I named here are out for personal gain or are trying to ruin this hobby/business for anyone.

I am not accusing the people I named of any wrong doing.

I am not bad mouthing the people named here and want to make that clear. This post is only about who supplies Petco.

Thanks for reading

Tom, some of your posts do sound like you know more then you are saying. Maybe it's just the way you word them.

First I have NO first hand knowledge of any deal or compromise period. I simply was searching and found that link and it frightened me with some of the wording. At that point after thinking on it for some time posted a warning of what I THINK could well happen as a compromise putting all the info together. I have no knowledge that anyone specifically is doing anything wrong to the Industry. My post clearly says read this and make your own decision based on your own conclusions. I then said I am opposed to it and I still am if that's what is going to be offered. All of this is conjecture and doesn't target anyone. In reality I believe IF this NRIP was put into place and going off the link I posted it would not be good for the average herper who loves his hobby and animals. All my intentions have been to let the public at large know that NRIP exists. The link I posted is public knowledge and anyone who looks can find it and others. Once again read it and search yourself and make your own decision. I hope this is very clear...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

ALSO I WOULD LIKE TO GO ON RECORD AS SUPPORTING SELF REGULATION OF THIS INDUSTRY BUT IN A WAY THAT ALLOWS EVERYONES INPUT IF DESIRED....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Tom, I was not trashing you. You are very knowledgable and a lot of times in the know. You are usually the first one I seek out at a reptile show when I have a question. So I hope you are not offended by my remark. Sometimes when things get worded certain ways, people tend to read between the lines.

No offense taken. Thanks for the kind words....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

n/p

It's not about folks breeding high end herps and never has been. FOLLOW THE MONEY.....At this point I'm not saying anything else. Just wait and I suspect it all will become very clear to you. It would be NOW if you look, listen, read, and think objectively out of the box......
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Dave, I might add YOU ARE MISSING SOMETHING....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

No disrespect but if you have information why would you not disclose it to us? This all seems like the hype behind the latest reality show...."tune in next week for the answer".

The more people that know about what we are "missing" the better, if you know...then what is really going on?

Concerned...
Joel
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Don't tread on me!

There is no secrecy. E. Eisons post about sums it up....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Tom,

Are you thinking the new bill will also target *native* US species?
That would make a bit more sense to me as far as the big chains monopolizing the corn/king snake and gecko market.

Thanks,
Ed

>>There is no secrecy. E. Eisons post about sums it up....
>>-----
>>Tom Crutchfield
>>www.tomcrutchfield.com

I would love to help, but Ernie's post did not sum things up for me, it only made things less clear...I guess I am not the sharpest crayon in the box, but after re-reading his post I took Ernie's statement to say that "all" activists are against us and I disagree that USARK is working against us.

If you have information public or private I would love to be educated.

Thanks for your time.

Joel
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Don't tread on me!

USARK I don't believe is working against us in any way...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Thanks Tom & Ernie and everybody for this great conversation. I know USARK is for us Boa people / Reptile People 110%.
Its the other group Advisory Council that I have been leery about for a very long time.
I don't see how they can represent Reptile people and big chain stores and
those chain stores suppliers and how we still can get a fair shake.
The smart move USARK made was to hire Tom Wolfe, he is our Lobbyist !
I believe but I can't know forsure that USARK saw some writing
on the wall this is why they hired Mr. Wolfe.

Everybody in the reptile hobby who wants a voice should
back USARK finacially !

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

When Ernie says activists he's talking about the people like HSUS,PETA ,Defenders Of Wildlife and so on and so forth.
This is why it is vital for everyone to read everything at least about reptiles on the PIJAC website.
Really should read over the entire PIJAC website
Plus listen to that pod cast link Tom left for us the other day.
You will learn alot and be able to start connecting the dots.

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

>>Plus listen to that pod cast link Tom left for us the other day.

Wish I could, can't watch vids at work and don't have internet at home.

Maybe I am just stupid, but could someone PM me if they won't post it here, because I am not fully connecting the dots... normally I can think outside the box but got the feeling I am missing a big point you guys are trying to make.

I was going to support PIJAC after the last USFWS hoopla 4/08 but after reading all of this, and after how well USARK coordinated the fight against HR669, I will deff. be giving that support to USARK instead (next pay day in fact).

Thanks,
April (a little confused but willing to fight the good fight)
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'There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."' -Rainshadow

It could involve native species I believe only by white listing common species in the trade that could be allowed to breed. There has been talk that by banning exotics herpers will turn to native species and only allowing "some species" to be traded would theoretically eleminate that threat. These species, of course, would be the species now sold to the major Pet Store Chains benefiting both the chains and suppliers but alas not you because you breed Indigo's. I'm hoping with all this info most are beginning to get the BIG PICTURE. It is not clear or 100% sure that this is what is being planned but I believe it might be in the works as a compromise. This is why my posts may seem nebulous when in fact they aren't at all. Most are just failing to connect the dots. In a short while I believe we'er going to be in the fight of our life and I want everyone ready to go on the offensive not defensive. Vince Lombardo once said "THE BEST DEFENSE IS A GOOD OFFENSE" so be ready when the call comes...Thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Tom,

Thanks for the response. I think one reason people may be having trouble connecting the dots is because what you are saying is so radically different (and even more severe!) than HR669. Wow. No offense at all, and I'm grateful to you for
the heads up, but I hope you turn out to be wrong. That scenario
would be insanity.

Thanks,
Ed

>>It could involve native species I believe only by white listing common species in the trade that could be allowed to breed. There has been talk that by banning exotics herpers will turn to native species and only allowing "some species" to be traded would theoretically eleminate that threat. These species, of course, would be the species now sold to the major Pet Store Chains benefiting both the chains and suppliers but alas not you because you breed Indigo's. I'm hoping with all this info most are beginning to get the BIG PICTURE. It is not clear or 100% sure that this is what is being planned but I believe it might be in the works as a compromise. This is why my posts may seem nebulous when in fact they aren't at all. Most are just failing to connect the dots. In a short while I believe we'er going to be in the fight of our life and I want everyone ready to go on the offensive not defensive. Vince Lombardo once said "THE BEST DEFENSE IS A GOOD OFFENSE" so be ready when the call comes...Thanks
>>-----
>>Tom Crutchfield
>>www.tomcrutchfield.com

I hope I'm dead wrong and I may be BUT if not we are in for a lot of trouble...thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I am not in favor of regulation!

I feel that something needs to be done to squash this "pythons in the Everglades" thing that is what I feel to be the motor that is driving the hysteria.

I am sure that the state of Florida could issue permits for controlled hunt's in the glades...and I am sure there would be a pretty solid demand for hides.

I have been to the Everglades many times and know how vast it is, it's beauty was imprinted in my mind and it is truly one of the most unique habitats on earth.

If there is actually a breeding population of pythons in the glades this issue will never die, it is sickning to me to know there are COUNTLESS non native species, some of which were brought and released on purpose by local government. Those invaders and transplants get very little press because the public hates snakes!

I think there is a problem and we the reptile community should try to find a solution...Just my opinion.

Joel Thomas
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Don't tread on me!

Its funny what the Gov't does and not let us know. Most of this
problem is due to their F ups. IMO of course

Joel,

I agree with your stand on regulation. However, I don't necessarily agree that "something needs to be done" about pythons in the Everglades. What evidence is there that these
pythons are having an overall negative effect on indigenous wildlife? The only evidence I've seen from the government "scientists" to support their hysteria is the examination
of the stomach contents of 5 or 6 pythons (out of how many hundreds?) that were HAND-PICKED after the stomach contents were exposed. That's obviously not anything upon which a conclusion can be reached, especially given the complexities of ecosystems. That's junk science. My personal gross speculation is that pythons probably have no overall effect, but again that's speculation. I'm not claiming it's a scientific conclusion, although given the USGS standards I could call it a scientific paper. Python eggs and young pythons are probably a food source for native wildlife. (I have two eastern indigo snakes, and I'm pretty certain they would gladly chow down on a baby python.) Even large pythons can probably be eaten by big gators. And pythons eat destructive, invasive animals that do a lot more harm to indigenous wildlife. Not every non-native species is "harmful".. well, except maybe Homo sapiens.

Thanks,
Ed

>>I am not in favor of regulation!
>>
>>I feel that something needs to be done to squash this "pythons in the Everglades" thing that is what I feel to be the motor that is driving the hysteria.
>>
>>I am sure that the state of Florida could issue permits for controlled hunt's in the glades...and I am sure there would be a pretty solid demand for hides.
>>
>>I have been to the Everglades many times and know how vast it is, it's beauty was imprinted in my mind and it is truly one of the most unique habitats on earth.
>>
>>If there is actually a breeding population of pythons in the glades this issue will never die, it is sickning to me to know there are COUNTLESS non native species, some of which were brought and released on purpose by local government. Those invaders and transplants get very little press because the public hates snakes!
>>
>>I think there is a problem and we the reptile community should try to find a solution...Just my opinion.
>>
>>Joel Thomas
>>-----
>>
>>
>>Don't tread on me!

Your point well taken...The fact is they do not belong there and have become the dart board for the extremist groups that want a ban on ownership of all animals.

Yes they are certainly prey for other species in the glades, but as far as them preying on other non-natives i would think that they would consume a larger amount of native animals.

Even if we cleared the glades of them would not stop the wack jobs but a 6 foot Asian rat snake gets a lot less press that a 15 foot python.

good subject thanks for your thoughts.

Joel
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Don't tread on me!

What else do you know?? Im intersted to see what types of other
animals are in Florida's ecosystem that should not be there. I
saw a burm eating a 6' Alligator on the internet a couple years
back. What about the Ratsnakes? I was confused how you presented it.
Thanks Joel

Kenny the list of non natives is literally way to long to even begin to name...just one example the state introduced the nile perch into some of the lakes in Florida back in the 70's the intention being that they would control aquatic vegetation.

Some of those fish made into the aquifer and spread through out Florida lakes, these fish are extremely aggressive breeders and forced out nesting large mouth bass and decimated populations in some of the lakes.

That is just one example out of MANY.

My point is that if someone were to run across a Non native rat snake that would hardly make the local paper, but if you see a 15 foot python that news goes international.

Joel
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Don't tread on me!

I see. I just hope they put people in the council that have
EXPERIENCE and can relate for us.

Thanks Joel. I asked Tom C. about this issue on the Herp Law forum, he said that feral cats (a VERY destructive animal) have been found in many of the Everglades pythons. Just food for thought (no pun intended.)

I just hate hysteria and junk science, even more so when it's being pushed by our employees (ie, government workers.)

BTW, when these captured Everglades pythons are being butchered, why isn't PETA and HSUS protesting?! I thought they supported animals' rights?

Thanks,
Ed

>>Your point well taken...The fact is they do not belong there and have become the dart board for the extremist groups that want a ban on ownership of all animals.
>>
>>Yes they are certainly prey for other species in the glades, but as far as them preying on other non-natives i would think that they would consume a larger amount of native animals.
>>
>>Even if we cleared the glades of them would not stop the wack jobs but a 6 foot Asian rat snake gets a lot less press that a 15 foot python.
>>
>>good subject thanks for your thoughts.
>>
>>Joel
>>-----
>>
>>
>>Don't tread on me!

>>BTW, when these captured Everglades pythons are being butchered, why isn't PETA and HSUS protesting?! I thought they supported animals' rights?

That is a great question, they are probably in their closets dressed in disguise running their fingers through animal fur and sniffing the smells of fresh fine leather.

Tom is 100% correct I have raised that question before about not only feral cats but "free range" pet cats, I watch every spring as the neighborhood cats feed on the birds at feeders, if it were a python or a monitor....CALL THE PAPERS!!

Joel
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Don't tread on me!

Joel here is an article that further supports some of your statements about
invasives(Pythons and other species) in the Everglades

. . . Lar M
Python problem is largely misunderstood

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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

It is amazing how many species were brought in and thrive in Florida, that article reminded me of the plot by the Governor to drain and develope the glades. He destroyed the aquifer and it was then that we discovered that the aquifer was keeping the salt water out of the glades.

Needless to say that was devastating to all the wild life there, did much more damage than these pythons.

The media reported many times that the snakes were let go in the glades, and I do not doubt that some people did so. So as the media reported this and the general public actually bought into the outlandish theory that "Johnny reptile" and others from all over the state packed up their unwanted pythons and drove the all the way down to the everglades to release them....PLEASE!

I worked with a retired fish & game officer back in the mid 80's
he told stories of non-native animals of all kinds shoeing up in in the 1950's.

Good read Larry thanks for the link.

Joel
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Don't tread on me!

I know Alan well and he is correct.....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

This country is really making me reconsider citizenship...

To top all the BS off I finally saw "Snakes on a Plane", Dear me, I'm sure the morons on the subcommity though it and the other reptile film monstrosities, IE "Anaconda", "Boa", "Lake Placid" Etc...were an accurate representation of the animals.

Why is that this country must conform to the morons that live here, I don't need a warning label on a MCdonald Coffee cup to know its hot. I don't need a "remove the plastic before baking" on the Thanksgiving Turkey to know it has to come off. I don't need to be told to shut the engine off before changing the fan belt.

This country has breed morons and destroyed the technical specialists. And now these dumb-ass peopel are leading the country...smooth move ex-lax!

If we keep protecting the idiots ...they will breed!

We can only blame ourselves for letting this stuff happen, what do we expect when we keep silent about what is happening?

"No taxation without representation"

I say no representation without taxation...meaning if you don't work and pay taxes you can't vote.

I am not suggesting that there are not legitimate people that need assistance and need help but honestly we the tax payers are being abused and extorted!

Joel
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Don't tread on me!

>>If we keep protecting the idiots ...they will breed!

That's how they make money the more kids you have the better the welfare check....

I pay my taxes...and could give two #$%^'s about voting, we are a republic no matter what we vote its the congressmen's vote that counts....

I have a number of other complaints...I'll keep to myself...

Just food for thought how many inmates in prison are spending the rest of their lives at the tax payer's expense....

if you don't like this country, you know where the border is, use it.

>>if you don't like this country, you know where the border is, use it.

I'm fully aware of the border and its location, I'm also aware of what's on the otherside. Its not always brighter on the otherside...

In addition there is no way for me to help solve the problems of this country from the otherside of the border...

The people and laws of the US have evolved into a thinking and feeling system that fully supports the lowest common denominator.
jb
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Jonathan Brady

Any proposal that's bad for the small scale or Hobby breeder is also bad for the big guys.

It's the little guys that buy from the big guys..... Well, for the most part.

If the Hobby breeder could no longer breed and sell their animals, then they wouldn't be willing to pay those high dollar amounts for the "hottest" new thing. I know there's a few that would still pay a lager amount of money for a pet, but that number is very small.

Eventually the larger scale breeder would run out of customers. Either that or they'd have to drastically lower their prices.

So... In the Reptile Hobby/business... WE ALL NEED TO STICK TOGEHTER!!!!

You are absolutely correct EXCEPT if your NOT selling those kind of investment herps. If you are breeding and selling pet store herps you would benefit greatly because you would have little competition and instead of selling an albino Corn Snake for $12 you could get $25 and actually make money instead of losing money. Think about it.....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Yep,
Cornsnakes will definately be hot ticket items "and" more profitable.

Still, eventually the market would get flooded with those as well. Even cornsnakes are purchased as "investment snakes" by some. Can you imagine the amount of cornsnakes or other small "inexpensive" snakes would have to be produced year after year for "any" breeder to make a profit?

Most small breeders just try to "support their habbit". Some make a profit, but I believe that most of them still have their day jobs.

Most people that purchase and keep larger collections do breed and sell excess babies to help their hobby pay for it self. If they took the ability of the hobby breeder to make an extra dollar here or there... They "might" not keep such large collections.

This "NRIP" thing.... it would only benefit "some" for a while. It would be harmful to "many" right off the bat. Eventually it would be harmful to all.

"If" more regulations were imposed on reptile keepers, collections could dwindle. New comers to the hobby could decide it's too much hassle to even try. Even the larger breeders could "eventually" go out of business.

I have no intention of trading my reptiles in for the, furry, common pets.

I too will fight against any proposal that takes away our rights to keep reptiles.

USARK doesn't pretend to know what the position of others is on an HR669 type bill. But let me make our position very clear... USARK is strongly opposed to any compromise that involves a "White List" that will negatively impact the types of animals that can be worked with. We are also strongly opposed to any Federal Permit system to limit "who" can work with certain animals. Any proposals that involve either of these concepts will be opposed in the strongest possible terms by the Reptile Nation.
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Andrew Wyatt
President USARK

I'm in total agreement to the position of USARK.
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Its already slowed down sales in a slow economy.. I bought some high end investment boas last year and this year. I want to buy more, but I decieded to stop all buying because of this stupid law they are trying to pass. Because I dont want to invest as a small time high end breeder and not be able to breed or sell my animals to help pay for my hobby. It already took me out of 'THE GAME'. No more purchases for me.....

I have full faith that this will go away, hopefully. There is
always the doubt but I think this would go away in due time. This
year will be my somewhat big investment year as well. I know this
dont help much, but hang out a little while longer, dont sell the
project, and cross your fingers and hope for the best. Have a
great day Pithon
Kenny Bowman

Oh, Im a very optimistic person. But the way the government been heading, I have no trust in anything they do... I didnt say I was going to sell my collection/investment. I just said i wasnt going to pay out in increase my collection/investment.

I've gotten to pick away at reading this while going to work and in the process of moving (yet again) so finally I'll reply. I agree 100% with USARK and their standings.
Tom, thank you so much for notifying everyone of this.

We canNOT give up and just let them have their way....whatever that way may be. It is very confusing and having just gone against the HR699 bill, I can see how easy it is to panic and feel like it'll never end. Our power as a community just showed them how much we care about this hobby and these animals. Not only have we stopped that bill (until it's reworked over, and over again) but we made a stamp in their minds of how massive we are as a community, by "overwhelming" them with our calls and letters. It's almost as if they had no clue the herp community was larger than a small town out in the wilderness and hopefully opened their eyes to see just how large and educated this community is. Additionally it shows we aren't just a bunch of ignorant people who want to say "I have snake", we are normal people with jobs and lives like anyone else, who have a fascination and a deep love for this hobby.
That will always prevail if we stick together.

Hugs,

Amanda Rose

USARK has enlightened me quite often in the last year and I recently made the move to join as a paying memeber.

The membership is growing so rapidly that I can not get a members count from them right now...just curious how many strong we are.

It is people like you that make this hobby so great.

Joel
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Don't tread on me!

encouragement Joel.

Hugs,

Amanda Rose

You've wrecked my day ... MY BLOOD IS STILL BOILING!

And after 30 years of marriage, my wife just learned a whole lot of new words.

The enemy is definitely amongst us ... obviously from the PIJAC presentation, the large pet chains and PIJAC, but if you care to privately pass along the names of any reptile breeders (and I can guess at some), I will not hesitate to give them a piece of my mind.

We definitely need to educate ourselves on their programs, such as HabitAttitude and others, and continue to educate the public about these fanatical animal rights and environmental extremists for what they really are.

Don't any of these radicals watch the news ... something called the Swine Flu that is spread around the world overnight by humans.

Anyways, thanks for the heads up ... I gotta stop typing before I break all the keys on my keyboard.

Bill

You should be on the front line! Not in anger, but as a formidable opponent. Thanks for everyones thoughts!!
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Kenny Bowman

"Symetry Exotics"
Honesty is my only way, you dont like it? Sorry!