Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This week there have been posts on the Forum pertaining to HR669 and NRIP. Some of them have been quite negative to PIJAC and to some of the large Breeders. This morning I received a letter from Bill Brant with his comments on these topics. For those of you who do not know Bill he is the owner of the Gourmet Rodent. He would most assuredly be considered one of the large Breeders.

I first met Bill at the 1994 National Reptile Breeders Expo when I purchased some of the finest Leopard Geckos I had ever seen. I have considered him and his wife Marcia friends ever since. When ever I had a question about husbandry or any thing else he was always glad to help. Any body that has met him at the National Reptile Breeders Expo over the years can attest to the kind of person he is. He has been fighting the good fight for a long time so I will let him take over now. Here is his letter.

April 30, 2009

Hello Fellow Herpers,
In recent days there have been many comments on topics related to HR669, so I decided to make a few of my own. If you care to, please forward this letter on to others as food for thought. My name is Bill Brant, and my wife and I own The Gourmet Rodent. I have been on the board of directors for the Pet Industry Joint Advisory Council (PIJAC) since March, 2003. I have also represented the Reptile Industry in Florida on the Animal Industry Technical Council (AITC), an advisory council to the Commissioner of Agriculture for the state of Florida.

In recent months our industry has been involved in several high profile pieces of federal legislation, HR669 and S373. HR669 has gotten more attention in recent months because it just came before the House Subcommittee on Insular Affairs, Oceans and Wildlife, but make no mistake, S373 as well as other issues threaten our emerging industry.
I have been encouraged by the outpouring of responses that preceded the hearing on HR669, however I have been saddened and somewhat confused by the responses I have seen on several of the forums by the leadership in the industry.
My confusion is because many posts indicate that HR669 is dead in the water. To my knowledge, that is not the case. At the end of the hearing, Rep. Bordallo stated that there would be a ten day comment period. I have seen nothing official that states anything other than the bill is still in progress, (http://resourcescommittee.house.gov/index.php?option=com_jcalpro&Itemid=60&extmode=view&extid=246).

Even if it is going to undergo a significant revision, or a re-write, I believe our industry should offer to help come to a reasonable compromise, rather than dig our heels in and take the position of no compromise. If we do that, we may find out that we are in the minority, and get out voted. I also think it is unwise to prematurely claim victory at this point in time. We may have gotten their attention, and earned their respect for having garnered so much grassroots support, however to “crow” about victory prematurely could cause them to take a more unyielding position when it comes down to the compromises they are willing to concede to.

I am saddened by the misinformation that is abundant in recent posts on forums. Especially when it comes to the intent and impact of the National Reptile Improvement Plan (NRIP). To understand its intent, you need to understand its inception. It came about as a result of the “Tick Symposium” held in July 2000 in Tallahassee, FL. The Tick meeting came about because regulators in the Florida Department of Agriculture and the US Department of Agriculture were responding to the “Heartwater Scare” of 1999. Ticks carrying the bacterium that causes Heartwater Disease, a very fatal disease for ruminant animals such as cattle, sheep and deer, were found on imported Leopard Tortoises. At the time, FDOACS and USDA had no idea who the reptile industry was, so they sponsored the symposium to see who would show up.

PIJAC and many concerned herpers showed up to try to limit the action of USDA and FDOACS to just the reptiles that could be carrying the vector ticks. It became apparent at the symposium that our industry would need Best Management Practices and Standard Operating Procedures in order to have credibility in the eyes of our regulators. That is the reason why NRIP was drafted, not to create an elite group of larger reptile dealers and breeders. It took three years, and was open to anyone who showed an interest in participating in the process. We welcomed all the help we could get.

In June 2008, we convened a group of interested herpers at the PIJAC office in Washington, DC to review the NRIP document for potential amendments. One of the topics we addressed was making the program more user friendly for smaller reptile breeders of all types, sizes and descriptions. Most importantly, I want to emphasize that it is PIJAC’s desire to have NRIP be a voluntary program. I think it is interesting to see the similarity between the “code of ethics” of NCARK (the precursor of USARK) , and the NRIP program. Please take time to check them out.(http://www.ncark.org/ethics.php) (http://pijac.org/projects/project.asp?p=28).

A final reason why I am saddened is the seeming rivalry between USARK and PIJAC. I suspect that this is the result of one being a forty year old organization, and the other being a one year old organization. I am a member of both organizations, and urge you to do the same. They both have something to add to our common cause. USARK is young and reptile specific. PIJAC is seasoned and has been the “go to” resource for regulators and legislators for decades. As far as I can tell, the desired outcome of both organizations is to have a workable set of regulations that enable people to pursue their passion for reptiles while providing protection for the environment, public health and safeguards for people in our communities that don’t share our enthusiasm for reptiles. ( PIJAC’s position on HR669 is included here: http://pijac.org/governmentaffairs/hr669forum.asp ) I think our interests would be better served if we focused on solving the legislative challenges we all face in a unified manner. Please consider what I have said. I look forward to seeing many of you at the Daytona Expo, or the NARBC shows that I attend.

Sincerely,
Bill Brant
The Gourmet Rodent
-----
Albey Scholl
Albeys Too Cool Reptiles
Email Me

I believe in unity!!

But if unity means compomising the best interest of the "little guy", well forget it!

PIJAC wants to "compomise" as currently drafted in the information available, the best interest of the "little guy" when it comes to NRIP! So unity is not a option for the reptile nation IMO!

The information currently available for PIJAC's stand on NRIP is not in the interest of the little guy!

I am willing to unify with any organization that has the best interest of the "little guy" drafted. PIJAC hasn't drafted anything, that I can find, that is in the interest of the little guy!

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Feel free to add if you agree!

Regards,

We need all the friends we can find as the reptile comunity has few.

I too read the NRIP and I am not sure what all the hype is about.

We need to support both USARK and PIJAC... make no mistake about that. Both organizations have a role to play. And we all need to join as that makes us stronger.

The last thing we need right now is bickering and division amongst ourselves.

Oz
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PIJAC and USARK Member
Join the fight to protect our rights!
www.OZZYBOIDS.com

Where was PIJAC when the shows up north were being raided ? Why didn,t they come up with a letter writing campaign ? We are being bombarded with laws in every state and more federal laws.When do we say enough is enough? I think we made a statement with the letters phone calls and e-mails and we need to continue to do so.Just maybe they will leave us alone and move on to more important things.

Subdivided we fall; there is no time for feuds and bickering amongst ourselves. Our enemies love it when we fight against each other. Let’s grow up and be professional in thought, words and actions. WE NEED EACH OTHER like it or not.
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Proud supporter of USARK and Kingsnake.com
“We stand together or we fall apart”

Kyle
www.royalvariations.com

"be safe, be happy and dont let anyone make you afraid"
David Coverdale

no bickering here! Unity is great! I believe we should join forces but am not willing to join PIJAC with out a answer on key points!

Regards,

Okay...first I will admit that I got bored reading through all the legaleze about NRIP, but this is what I take from it.

This program doesn't really fix any problems that are in the public eye right now. ie.... non native species running amok in the everglades. It is based on keeping ticks in check, granted those are non native ticks...but it doesn't do anything for the overall problems.

It would also eventually create yet another corporate entity that would always be looking for ways to bring in more $$. To me that equals more fees..etc... down the road.

They want us to pay $10 to have someone come out and inspect our "facilities" and tell us that we are complying with their standards.

It is allegedly voluntary, so why is it exactly that I should pay $10 to adhere to their standards when this program does nothing to keep the government from trying to ban more species? I'm guessing this is supposed to make us look more professional so that we can be taken more seriously? Seems 50k letters did a pretty good job of getting us taken seriously.

I know that my opinion on this isn't going to be the most popular, but I believe that if we gave up the big 4 (burms, retics, rocks, anacondas), some of the crocodilians, venomous species, and a couple of the larger monitor species to some sort of permit / tagging system that would appease most of the gov't folks, most reptile folks, and if portrayed properly a general sigh of relief from john q public.

Seems to me that florida has a fairly effective permit system in place for working with venomous....don't see why that couldn't be implemented for the above species across the country. That way folks can still have their big toys, no bans happen (federally...still could happen locally), and those who fail to comply with the permit system or get caught releasing their burm into the woods behind their house get nice big healthy fines.

Sorry, but for now USARK is getting my support because I don't see this plan from PIJAC doing much against the problems facing me as a small hobbiest / breeder. If I'm wrong and someone else can see the benefits for the small time folks then please enlighten me!
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Stu
Snakes N Gex.com

The NRIP was put together years ago when the tick issue was a very hot topic. There was a very real threat that the Government would put some serious restrictions in place at the time. NRIP was drafted in response.

I don't see why you can't support both organizations. PIJAC has established connections in DC and WILL influence some of the decision making in DC. If they have 5000 members from the reptile nation as opposed to 10, I think it will be better for us. And I think they would be more receptive to hearing our concerns. Same goes for USARK... we need more people to join and help fund the movement.

Oz
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PIJAC and USARK Member
Join the fight to protect our rights!
www.OZZYBOIDS.com

Oz is right-the document y'all are reading so much into is years old and has little to do with the current issues. Let's wait and see what is happening behind the scenes right now. Sounds like Tom is right on top of this....I doubt much will sneak past him.

PIJAC has shown nothing but solid support for all segments of our hobby, and I will continue to support them until I see solid evidence otherwise.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

if this program is so old and outdated and they are going to totally revamp it....why are they displaying it on their website as though this is the direction they plan to take?
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Stu
Snakes N Gex.com

Yesterday I spoke with Bill Brandt for over 2 hours regarding a lot of issues and questions I have regarding any compromise of any kind that will affect us. He has assured me that our best interests are being looked into and that PIJAC has no deal or compromise made. I asked him several point blank questions I had regarding certain aspects of NRIP and PIJAC'S role in some other matters. He has assured me he will give me an answer to my questions soon. One very important one was "IS THERE A WHITE LIST OF CERTAIN HERPS ON THE AGENDA". I have asked to see a public statement made by PIJAC defining their position on this question and he said he would see what he could do. Bill also agreed that information about PIJAC'S role and what they are trying to accomplish should be made available to the masses within reason. Obviously some things can't be publicly aired and I understand and agree with this. I have been close friends with Bill for almost 40 years and I'm certainly willing to give him the benefit of doubt. I'm also in aggreement with OZ that PIJAC and USARK should work as closely together as possible for the good of all. To sum it up our phone conference was very informative and positive and I await an answer to my questions. Thank you for your interest...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

One other thing I expressed concern about was statements made in the link about "unregulated Reptile Shows and On Line Sales" as a venue for invasives to be introduced into the enviroment. That statement is a HUGE concern of mine for many reasons. Mainly I don't see how internet sales or reptile show sales could be more problematic than buying something at PetCo and releasing it or having it escape. The end result is the same and has more to do with the character of the individual purchasing the animal than where they purchased the animal at. That statement is FLAWED and INCORRECT and I don't have a clear understanding of what was meant by that even now. If anyone has a better understanding of why that would be true I welcome your response and will be happy to admit I'm wrong if I am.
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

..well done Tom! I agree and am waiting for an answer as well!

Regards,

That is great to hear. I assure you WE MUST WORK TOGETHER or all will be lost. That is a fact. Both organizations need to respect each other and support each other for a common goal. Please keep us informed and updated with this issue.

LET’S WORK TOGETHER,

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Proud supporter of USARK and Kingsnake.com
“We stand together or we fall apart”

Kyle
www.royalvariations.com

"be safe, be happy and dont let anyone make you afraid"
David Coverdale

shouldn't you at least see some real proof that PIJAC isn't looking to hose you before you blindly agree they are the good guys?

I really am grateful to Tom for spending the amount of time and energy that he is hunting all this down and getting to the truth. but as he said...he is still waiting for the most basic of straightforward answers.

and i'll ask once more for anyone who cares to answer...... How is the NRIP program going to benefit me? I can see how it will benefit PIJAC ($$$), but what about the folks they are supposed to represent?
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Stu
Snakes N Gex.com

Quote- shouldn't you at least see some real proof that PIJAC isn't looking to hose you before you blindly agree they are the good guys?

Is that what I did? YOU SURE?
My number is 917-922-0483 if you wish to discuss this further which might not be a bad idea. We need to unite.

my point is simple, IF we can work together and resolve our issues with each other we are in a better position, period.

Tom just explained his speaking with Bill. He awaits answers but at least they are talking and this is a good thing. I myself have spoken with people involved on both sides of this issue within the past few days. From what I know now this issue can be resolved for the betterment of all of our concerns. Each brings important contributions to the table in regards to our needs. We are better as one as opposed to being fragmented.

Public forums under the current circumstances are NOT the place to dispute where our "opponents" can watch and read our thoughts publicly. We MUST be smart in our efforts and our actions from now on. Instead of public disagreements posted for all to read we should use emails and phone calls to each other "as much as possible", "when possible".

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Proud supporter of USARK and Kingsnake.com
“We stand together or we fall apart”

Kyle
www.royalvariations.com

"be safe, be happy and dont let anyone make you afraid"
David Coverdale

Just so you know Bill is contacting several breeders to sell his ideas.

Brants letter was right on cue and it's content as predictable as the sun rising in the east. As for it's sincerity ..............

The real players involved already know Brants intent they don't have to wait for any answers. They've been in on it for a while. I'll take their word for it. The only WE are the private hobbyist, breeders and collectors that stand to lose out if We blindly follow the suggestions put out by those with completely self serving interest.

Pijac will only help us if we force their hand. Outside of that I wouldn't expect them to do us any favors. If Pijac board members want to "compromise " things away they should focus on the animals found on their price list instead of negotiating on things they have no vested interest in personal or otherwise.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

does PIJAC "support" USARK?
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Proud supporter of USARK and Kingsnake.com
“We stand together or we fall apart”

Kyle
www.royalvariations.com

"be safe, be happy and dont let anyone make you afraid"
David Coverdale

Brant says their seemly rivals , Andrew Wyatt said he didn't know Pijacs position. Only the two guys behind those organizations know what their relationship is.

Between the two if I had to trust someone. I think UsArk will do their best to look out for everyone.

As far as Brant and Pijac . Bill used to run around selling mice out of the back of his van with is wife he paid his dues. I completely understand how much he has on the line. Unless your is in his shoes you don't what you would do. It's easy to be Noble when you don't have anything to lose.

You can't hate someone in that position for looking out for themselves , you just can't trust them.

As far as Pijac in general I think if we can turn reptiles into puppy chow they`ll care a little more.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

good question! I think that is another answer that all would like to know!

Regards,

the reason i currently would choose USARK over PIJAC is this, instead of pushing for legislation that we can all live with (or a total lack of legislation) PIJAC is proposing some 6 year old program that doesn't affect the current issue of potential bans due to non native species being introduced into our ecosystem.

i simply don't understand how a voluntary program that will eventually bring about another corporation (those like to make profits you know) is helping to fix the current trend of legislation against this business.

i also don't understand how $10 per person will be able to fund such a program. i saw mention of vets, inspections, etc.... all that for $10? maybe with additional gov't funding...won't that be fun? of course when it turns corporate they will want to make some $$$ so i would expect that $10 a year to jump dramatically. next thing you know, only the biggest can afford to be part of the program. then what happens? do shows start to only allow folks who are part of the program to sell?

while i get a little tired of USARK's "grass roots" warrior verbage the simple truth is they are trying to fight current and future legislation, not create programs to teach us all how to clean our cages (yes, i know that is oversimplified)that will eventually cost so much that only the most prolific breeders will be able to afford to participate.

yes, i know there are some conspiracy theories floating in the above rant, but all of it is possible, and i would suggest even probable.

so at the end of the day....what is the benefit of the NRIP program to someone like me?
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Stu
Snakes N Gex.com

why would I want to join a organization that has current views that are not in my best interest?

Sure, unity is best, but I'm not joining any organization that doesn't have my best interest in account!

PIJAC has been around for a while... Sure. They have strong connects in DC... Sure. There views as currently drafted are not in my best interest!

The "grass roots army" of the reptile nation is growing almost exponetially! I'm confident the number of "little guys" out there will be more than happy to take a stand if/when needed! The letter and phone call campaign was just a sneak preview of what is still to come!

For the record, I'm not "bickering"! I am stating facts! I have a vested interest in this fight just as much as anyone! When PIJAC wants to come to the table, drafting something that has the "little guy's" best interest in account, I'll still be here ready and willing to join forces! Until then...........,

Regards,

A little about the big heartwater scare. Activist groups first implored this attack back in the late 40`s against a big time Florida animal importer. Like salmonella they keep recycling this agenda driven scare tactic against the pet trade. The argument repeatedly fails because they can't produce enough evidence to convince the USDA that they have a valid case.

Amblyomma ticks found on mammals and birds are a known vector .

All testing on Amblyomma ticks species found on reptiles failed to produce a single positive result.

Bird species that migrant from islands where massive out breaks of heartwater have occurred and are proven to be heartwater vectors are protected by Federal law .

Amblyomma ticks are native to the US.

As a result of the inconclusive testing done in the early 2000`s an embargo on the importation of certain African tortoise species was put in place until further testing. We will never see this embargo lifted.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

I agree with you on all points.

obviously sir you have a good head on your shoulders
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Stu
Snakes N Gex.com

When it comes to bills like HR 669 and S373, bills that call for an outright ban on species, what exactly is a reasonable compromise? What segment of the reptile community do we throw under the bus? I don't keep mon itors, so do I say "ok, if you leave pythons alone, we'll give you monitors. You can ban those." Sure, that will help me, for now. But ten years, or 5 years, or 6 months, or two weeks from now, when the next special interest group sits down with some schmuck in DC that wouldn't know what a Burmese python was if it crawled into bed with them, and they decide they're coming after herps again, I'm going to want help from thos monitor people to help protect my rights. I'm going to ask for a hand, and all I'm going to get is a finger-and I couldn't blame them one bit.

I can appreciate what the man is trying to say, but when it comes to bills that propose an outright ban on species, a black list or a white list, or a compromise based on how much money you generate per year breeding your animals, there is no room for compromise. There's a brief article in the new REPTILES about how Tom Wyatt is pushing for a bill in NC that would implement a permitting system for large, potentially dangerous reptiles. This is the type of "compromise" we need to push for-showing people that we are responsible keepers and that we are willing to play by the rules to protect our rights to keep our animals. These permits shoule be on a state level, not a Federal level. There are already several states that have an active, and fairly effective, permitting system. This is what we need to work towards. In regards to bills like HR 669 and S373, again, there is no room for compromise. Compromise in these bills would only serve to alienate members of the reptile community, opening us up to future attacks by special interest groups and politicians, and eventually leading to the downfall of our hobby. All exotic keepers, regardless of what they keep, need to stand shoulder to shoulder with each other and say that we will not stand for any compromise that prevents people from owning the animals that they responsibly keep and breed.

... once replied to a street urchin (prostitute) after her, giving HIM, what he found to be a distasteful proposition one late night as he was walking home alone from the theater.

"Madame, that simply WILL NOT DO!!!"

I say WE would be best off following Sam's sage line of reasoning and simply, calmly just respond NO -- to EVERY PORTION OF EVERY BILL -- UNTIL THE END OF TIME!!!!

Any compromise will be the first step to many more. I only own Balls, but I would not wish the keeper of ANY reptile to lose the right to own, breed, and sell them.

JUST SAY NO!!!
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Bill Buchman

EXACTLY!!!!

a compromise on some sort of permitting system for the "dangerous" reptiles would work dandy. you have to pay to play.....keeps the idjits from playing with 20 foot snakes they'll eventually let loose and lets the serious keeper still have them , breed them, and sell them. I can't imagine there are too many serious / professional keepers of venomous / giants that really, honestly believe that just anybody should be able to own these guys. These are serious animals that require real commitment, dedication, and intelligence.

How many of you snake folk out there would be willing to accept this sort of compromise? Even on a federal level?
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Stu
Snakes N Gex.com

I would.....

I feel as though if the industry does nothing to regulate the potential dangerous animals we keep then some one will.

I hate the fact that anybody, I mean anybody can order a Retic or Burm online for next to nothing money wise. An animal that has a potential to exceed 20ft should not be sold to someone who lives in an apartment. Most the people I know that have gotten them did not realize how fast they grew and became scared to handle them.

There needs to be regulations on the large constrictors and some of the large monitors to protect the public from their own stupidity.

Just my two......

>>EXACTLY!!!!
>>
>>
>>a compromise on some sort of permitting system for the "dangerous" reptiles would work dandy. you have to pay to play.....keeps the idjits from playing with 20 foot snakes they'll eventually let loose and lets the serious keeper still have them , breed them, and sell them. I can't imagine there are too many serious / professional keepers of venomous / giants that really, honestly believe that just anybody should be able to own these guys. These are serious animals that require real commitment, dedication, and intelligence.
>>
>>How many of you snake folk out there would be willing to accept this sort of compromise? Even on a federal level?
>>-----
>>Stu
>>Snakes N Gex.com

Makes sense..Non-herpers have no idea what is dangerous and what isn't.It's up to us to identify what is a hazard and what needs to be regulated..or THEY will do it for us.
Acting like none need regulation diminishes our collective moral standing.

Any additions to restricions and permits need to be extremely selective though..Only to species that are truly "dangerous",such as venomous or Giant Boids..Same as the gun laws(ie handguns and automatics require permits,so why not the venomous and giants?)

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Charles Glaspie
http://www.myspace.com/coldthumb

compromise...
venomous / giants.....
These are serious animals that require real commitment, dedication, and intelligence.

I take it that you don't own any. I do. Both. And so does Tom. I'm sure Tom appreciates your willingness to sell him out, too.

Why are some of you so willing to sell your brother to save your own soul? Once you concede, you will continue to bleed. Every compromise is followed by another. History has proven so.

A man of integrity doesn't place a figure on his morals/values. Nor his brothers'.

Be a warrior. Stand united.

HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

how is that selling him or you out? i'm not talking about a ban. you would still be able to keep your animals.

if you think that those types of animals are going to continue to be unregulated if not outright banned you have lost your mind. those are the animals that the media feeds on and the public fears. there aren't stories in the news of ball pythons offing their owners.

at least in a permiting system you would be able to keep them, and it would hopefully keep the numbers of people that shouldn't have them down to a minimum. i think you know as well as i do that a good majority of burms sold in pet stores go to folks that are not prepared for them. next thing you know its 10 feet and they are scared and want to sell it.

do you agree with me that those are serious animals that not everyone is capable of keeping properly? can you honestly say that the giants and venomous should be as easily obtainable as they are now? why wouldn't a permit system work for those? it already works for venomous in florida and seems to be doing a fine job.

what sort of compromise would you go for? because there is going to be one....continueing to just say NO is not going to work much longer. lets hear your ideas....got a better plan, i would love to hear it!
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Stu
Snakes N Gex.com

"what sort of compromise would you go for?"

None! Absolutely none.

A willingness to compromise shows weakness. Any/all talk of compromise at this point in time is very premature and emboldens the enemy.

The first step in warfare is understanding the enemy. You have to know their mindset. The people behind these proposals aren't wrapped very tight. I'd support waterboarding 'em to find out their next attack plans. And if anyone thinks it would stop with the large constrictors, they're in for a rude awakening.

" lets hear your ideas....got a better plan, i would love to hear it!"

My whole point is to keep the government out of it. How? Self-government. Something somewhat similar to PIJAC's NRIP. Once laws are enacted, they're virtually impossible to eliminate or reduce.

I'd be willing to bet that those behind these latest proposals are scouring every reptile forum. I think it would be in all of our best interest for us to not bicker with each other and cease premature compromise talk.

Now, if ya'll will excuse me, I've got to go see if my waterboarding tank is full yet.

Later!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

With my position and stance I may be a victem of the waterboard business. Godd thing I swim well....lol...NOT FROM YOU MIKE BUT FROM OTHERS WHOSE TOES I STEPPED ON UNAVOIDLY...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

This is a general statement about my personal perspective on self regulation and the law. It`s directed at no one in particular

The first step is finding out who the enemy is.

The people behind these proposals are very well wrapped. They know exactly what their doing. Look at where an organization like Peta is at today and compare them to Pijac who had a ten year head start. Its friggin pathetic .

Activist organizations generate 100`s of millions of dollars, The big chains that started out as a couple little 7/11 sized pet food stores now generate billions of dollars and have a 1000 20 k + sq ft operations . The biggest reptile guys all seem to ether want to down size because their losing money or quit.

Self regulation,

I've been the perfect example of self regulation. I`ve spent my entire life doing things right. Now other people want to step in and talk about what "WE" need to do .

Don't include me in that "WE". Others might need a leash but I don't. If someone wants to make the world a better place they should work very hard on themselves at raising their kids to be responsible people. Responsible people understand what self regulation really means.

I'm a huge fan of Self regulation. Self ..that means if you don't like something don't do it. Tell your friends and family not to do it. Engaging a set of rules you think others should have to follow is not self regulation it's regulating other's. That I'm not a fan of.

For all the complexity's and all the espionage that's going on the bottom line is very simple. The everyday collectors, pet owners and hobby breeders will ether fight for what they want or take what they get.

Lastly,

I'm brutally honest to the point that it scares some people. Their afraid of getting their mask pulled off. Its sad the cowardly lengths these people are willing go to. They do this hoping to discredit someone who tells it like it is. Every time they fall flat on their face.

No one has been more open and honest about their past , present and future and documenting these experiences and thoughts then I have. My actions are all the proof needed to validate my personal ability to self regulate.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

Ernie, while you may be "perfect" we don't live in a "perfect" world and the entire Industry isn't perfect including me. My safety record is second to none. In terms of venomous bites I've only had 3 occur after selling several hundred thousand in the course of the last 40 years. Two bit me, both times thru bags, and one employee was bitten by a Stilleto Snake. The idea of us selfregulating officially on paper is to prevent someone from regulating us. Very few incidents occur in the first place but the few that do generate massive negative publicity. I DON'T THINK THE INDUSTRY AT LARGE NEEDS REGULATION AS I THINK MOST OF US DO A GOOD JOB. It's the perception of the public at large that matters. If we can say, yes, here are our regulations and that person doesn't have a permit for retics or whatever species might require one negates attacks on the Industry at large. If you could say if an incident occured that out of more than 50,000 people this is the first incident we've had in two years that kind of positive info would benefit all us imperfect people. For you of course maybe we could get a "perfection permit" where you would be an exception to the rule....lol...JUST MY BRUTALLY HONEST OPINION
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I know I keep coming back to this, but it bears repeating:

First, some compromise will probably be necessary, eventually-but here and now is NOT the time to be talking about it.

Second, arguing and bickering among ourselves will be an inevitable part of the process-but now, and on public forums, is counterproductive to our cause (to say the least).

What should we do NOW, and in PUBLIC? Why, present a united front, and continue to win totally, until such time as we are forced into something else.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Actually you're correct....I'm sorry I responded to it....I need to continue my efforts as I've been doing...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Maybe I'm not reading your post right, or maybe you're not reading my post right...

I, in NO WAY, support the ban of any of these species. I have kept giant snakes-I don't anymore, due to space issues. One day, when I have the space, I would like another retic, as I find them fascinating. As far as hots, local laws ban me from keeping them. I find them fascinating as well, but I am not allowed to keep them. As far as you and Tom, and all the other keepers who responsibly keep giants and hots, MORE POWER TO YOU.

Here is my official stand on the matter of exotic ownership, though my official stand doesn't amount to much since I'm no where close to being a heavy hitter in this industry-

If you can properly keep an animal, in a way that prevents the animals escape, prevents it from causing injury to itself or others, in a way the provides it all it's basic needs, and if owning that animal does not have a detrimental effect on said animals wild population, YOU SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO KEEP THAT ANIMAL. This goes for giant snakes, hots, heloderma, big cats, birds, primates, whatever. When you are dealing with a potentially dangerous animal, I think that some sort of permitting system is not out of the question. In regards to giants and hots, is it too much to show that you have a proper room with proper caging to keep them in? From what I understand of Florida, they already have a permitting system for hots that works similar to that.

Would you not agree that, when someone buys a potentially dangerous herp, with no knowledge of how to properly house it or care for it, and they go around bragging about "yeah I picked up this cobra, he's real mean. Yeah, he lives in my living room. He could kill someone in a matter of minutes", that it makes you, Tom, and all the other responsible hot keepers look bad in the public eye? Maybe I've just talked to too many idiots who have a rattlesnake in a 10 gallon aquarium with a screen lid and a dictionary on top to weight it down, but I think these people are a huge danger to our hobby, just as much as I do the people who tire of an animal and release it...and on that matter I am in complete agreement with Tom that it makes no difference if that released animal was sold at a petco or a reptile show, the problem is with the person.

If I read your post wrong, I apologize. If you think I want to sell out my fellow herpers, go back and read my post again, as I have no desire to do that. I don't think suggesting a state level permit for certian species is selling anyone out. I don't want to see anyone lose their animals because of some stupid law based on fear and ignorance. I want everyone invloved with reptiles to look at ourselves and see that there is room for improvement in what we do, and if we don't seek to improve ourselves, others will cast their version of "improvement" on us.

And lest you think I'm ok with a permit program because it wouldn't effect me, look up New Jersey's exotic animal laws. Almost every animal I own requires a permit in this state, and their are a fair number of potentially dangerous animals that, rather than make a tougher permit sytem for, they have just outrigth banned private hobbyists from owning. And look at places like San Francisco, where any snake that can reach over 6 feet is "potentially dangerous" and outright illegal. Wouldn't it be better if people there could own these snakes if they just filled out the paperwork for a permit?

I do believe certain herps need to be regulated and permitted. That would include giant snakes, venomous, etc. The permitting system in place here in Florida seems to work well...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Thank you for contributing to the conversation, and thank you for taking it upon yourself to get so involved in protecting the rights of all herpers.

I WILL GO ON RECORD AS STATING I HAVE NO LARGE CONSTRICTORS BUT I DEFEND THE RIGHT OF EVERYONE WHO DOES TO HAVE THEM. I WILL NOT BE A PARTY TO SACRIFICING ANY OF MY BROTHER AND SISTER HERPERS TO SAVE ANYONE BECAUSE THEY CHOOSE NOT TO KEEP THEM. IT IS SELFISH AND IMMORAL TO DO SO AND THE AR FOLKS WILL BE BACK ANYWAY AFTER YOU...THANKS
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Brants version of compromise entails him giving up NOTHING but sacrificing the interest of others to protect his own business interest . I've been told by others , the guys that are the reptile business that Brant is throwing guys under the bus left and right. I believe them. Business is business and there's no we in business.

I haven't spoken to Brant because there's no reason if he's lying he's going to lie to everyone. If he's not we`er going to find out.

In the 40 years that Pijac has been around they have done little to nothing on behalf of reptile keepers their all about the pet food company's.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

I take issue with Bill on this big time, simply because the proposed compromises that Bill refers to will help the large scale suppliers like himself while terminating the business of the smaller guys like myself. So of course why would Bill not want this compromise that gets him more and more market share while killing two birds with one stone to use the government to kill off competition?

If I misunderstood the proposals of the group that Bill is refering to please straighten me out on this subject, but from what I am reading it really seems to be just what it sounds like and compromise is sacrificing the smaller suppliers and dealers which is what the 3 or 4 big scale suppliers want.

I'm afraid that if NRIP is the compromise coupled with the FALSE statement on the link that Reptile Show's and internet sales are the most likely venue linked to invasives in the enviroment small breeders will drop out or be forced out. The statement regarding the shows and internet sales on the link are the most frightening to me. I fail to see why a customer buying a herp on line, at a herp show, OR BUYING AT PETCO would be any more likely to let a herp escape or deliberately release them. That factor depends entirely on the character of the individual NOT where they buy the herp at. I STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND PIJAC'S POSITION ON THAT STATEMENT OR WHY THEY MADE IT. If it leads to and is part of any deal it would overnight destroy the ability of the small breeder to sell their surplus and immediately because of the sudden paucity of colubrids for instance raise the price for the breeders that are authorized to breed and sell. Albino Corn Snakes for instance would suddenly be worth $25 ea instead of $12 and benefit some financially in a HUGE way. I'm opposed to this whole concept because it could create a monopoly based on "THE WALMART SYNDROME" where the mom and pop stores all went under in a short period of time. THIS IS NOT GOOD FOR THE HERP INDUSTRY AT LARGE.....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Tom touches on a point that is under-appreciated, but is a deadly danger to our hobby: the loss of the "mom and pop" pet shop. The big chains, PETCO and PetSmart (as well as franchises Pet Supplies Plus and Petland, to a lesser extent), have been quite successful over the past decade in GREATLY diminishing the numbers of the independents. I can state from personal experience that the only way to stand up to competition from the giants is to specialize and find a niche market-like reptiles, avians, saltwater fish/reefs, etc. Back in Upstate NY, we lost over a dozen independent pet stores in our town within 2 years after Petco moved in-all tried to compete as full-line stores, and lost (By contrast, my own shop was able to compete very well as a reptile/avian specialty store for half a dozen years, up until we decided to sell and move to the Southwest).

The big chains currently carry only a small selection of herps, compared to the independents. I shudder to think what would happen if we lost both them and the expo/internet market!
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Brad, I'm glad you have commented on this as this is the second time I've brought this issue up with no comments other than yours. The destruction of the privately owned Pet Stores would be a huge loss to the Industry and Americana. It would also be the end of an "era" that I would certainly miss as well as a lot of other folks. It would eventually lead to no choices for the budding herpetoculturist and the lack of choices would lead to disinterest. If we remove the young folks from being able to interact with wildlife when young they will have little empathy for it as they mature. These young people are tommorrows leaders and they need to be taught to love and appreciate wild things and wild areas. Nothing drives this love and appreciation more than having an aquarium of fish or a small herp in a terrarium. They have actually created a piece of nature in their own living quarters with their own hands and imagination. You can never develop that type of love and devotion by simply watching nature shows or going to the zoo...Thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Too true, Tom. 90% of the reason many of us are fighting so hard right now is to be true to the 10 year old , herp-crazy kid most of us started out as. I often wonder how different things would have been had it been illegal for my parents to allow me to bring home and keep those first water and garter snakes way back in the 60s?
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Pet stores are the WORST place for snake sales PERIOD. I think if anything, it should be illegal to sell snakes in pet stores. Especially the large snakes like Burms and Retics. Pet stores have the worst husbandry methods and know little to nothing about the snakes they sell. They are more likely to buy imports(which I think should be limited or eliminated).

Breeders on the other hand are experts(for the most part) on what they are selling and can tell you exactly what to expect and how to take care of whatever you are buying. Your average buyer is much less likely to want to get rid of their snakes because they knew what they were in for from the beginning.

I see no reason to support PIJAC or NRIPoff. You sure don't see PIJAC visiting these forums. They don't care about the little guy at all IMO and this is all a moneymaking scheme for PIJAC.

In some cases your evaluation is accurate-but in many cases it is not. Many reptile-related pet stores are owned and run by breeders. I myself have been breeding reptiles since 1972, and owned my own shop for many years.

There are lots of bad apples out there, of course. But I can tell you the average pet owner is FAR more likely to get good animals and good advice from an independent store than from the big chains like Petco and Petsmart....

As for PIJAC, they have been very helpful to our cause in the past. Recently they helped us in Texas turn unreasonable regulations of constrictors and venomous into something we can live with.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

>>In some cases your evaluation is accurate-but in many cases it is not. Many reptile-related pet stores are owned and run by breeders. I myself have been breeding reptiles since 1972, and owned my own shop for many years.
>>
>>There are lots of bad apples out there, of course. But I can tell you the average pet owner is FAR more likely to get good animals and good advice from an independent store than from the big chains like Petco and Petsmart....
>>
>>As for PIJAC, they have been very helpful to our cause in the past. Recently they helped us in Texas turn unreasonable regulations of constrictors and venomous into something we can live with.
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>>Brad Chambers
>>WWW.HCU-TX.ORG
>>
>>The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

You are correct but I meant the general per stores, big chain or independent. We used to have reptile stores around here and they were great but they don't stay in business long unfortunately.

I've followed this current attack on our rights very adamantly, rallying as many people who actually have nothing to do with the reptile world together to fight this, and I, from the bottom of my heart, hope that everyone is doing the same. This is just one more example of the government attacking our rights, and the fact that average American citizens who have their rights taken away daily would be willing to compromise is just a total shame.

What has happened here? What happened to personal responsibility? Why do people feel it necessary for the government to "Protect us from our own stupidity"? Do we all see this for what it really is? As many others have pointed out, it's just one right at a time. Baby steps toward the big picture. I'm sure that each and every gun person here, who follows gun laws and gun rights, knows exactly what I am talking about.

It boils down to this with reptiles, just as it should with guns.....Actual numbers! No hysteria, no hoopla, but numbers! How many problems have we actually had? How many bites from venomous reptile pets happen each year? How many venomous are owned? They are dangerous, no doubt, but if the numbers are astronomically low, as I would bet they are, why take them away? Why even call for the need for a permit? Here's a better question, "How many venomous pet snakes have escaped to bit someone else?" The number may not even register in the grand scheme of things.

These questions translate over to the large constrictors. Aside from Florida, name another large constrictor problem in the states? Florida has taken action to curb that, so why should any other state, or the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT for that matter, take action? How many "Big Five" snakes are out there as pets? How many incidents happen involving the Big Five? Again, probably not enough to make a blip.

I guess it's a bit of a rant, you could write a book on the American public's disappearing rights, as many already have been. The government was originally designed to serve the peoples interests, not "Protect us from ourselves". To hear any herper willing to give up anything without any good reason that's backed up with facts is just disheartening. It just seems that perhaps people have been "protected from themselves" for so long that perhaps they have forgotten how to be responsible for themselves. We herpers, overall, have done a great job in our industry, with minimal incident. Can we actually all say, in one united American voice, No to any regulations? Please tell me, without the "I knew this one guy" story, a good reason as to why the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT needs to get involved, and why we should compromise?

Jason Royer

RoyerReptiles

The fact is that with the research I've done NO ONE has ever been bitten by an exotic venomous snake but the owner. The large constrictors are ONLY a potential danger to their owners. THE PUBLIC AT LARGE HAS NEVER AND WILL NEVER BE AT RISK THROUGH HERPERS HAVING HERPS. DENNIS SARGENT, THE FIRE CHIEF OF LAKE COUNTY, FL AND A HERPER, LOOKED FOR INCIDENTS NATIONWIDE INVOLVING ACCIDENTS WITH REPTILES AND IN EVERY CASE THE PERSON INJURED WAS THE OWNER. In fact considering the HUGE number held in captivity injuries and deaths are very rare which means we do a pretty good job anyway. The fact is a domestic dog is far more likely to harm the public than any captive reptile. These are facts not conjecture. We consistently get a bad press and I am sick of it because it's simply not true....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I think some of you guys are missing a big part of this picture. The AR folks don't give a rats ass how many or how few incidents there have been...they want people to not have pets...period..not cats not dogs not snakes etc....

They are not going to go away and they are not going to stop trying to get everything banned. reptiles are the animal of choice at the moment because most of the population fears them.

I don't want the gov't in my business any more than any of you do. but i don't believe for a second that the "self regulation" angle will do anything at all. The reason I say push for a permit system is because then its law and it will be harder for the AR folks to push for more strict laws when the existing laws are working. They have the resources to spend to convince lawmakers that there is a danger to the public, but if the lawmakers have already put in place a permit system there won't be a need for additional laws.

I am all about supporting the NO mentality when it comes to bans, I will make my phone calls, and I will send in my letters and emails and I will keep doing it as long as it takes. But.....I think alot of folks had best start to accept that at some point some sort of compromise will be necessary.

As for the bickering on public forums....guys...really? Do you think the AR folks are so thick they don't know what our pro and con arguments are already? The cloak and dagger mentality is what got this entire thread going in the first place because PIJAC and USARK aren't being 100% transparent and forthcoming with their plans / agendas. The conspiracy folks on the "other site" went off the freakin deep end with what PIJAC is allegedly doing....so please.....lets keep it out in the open, keep discussing and maybe we'll actually come up with ideas worth sending up the ladder to PIJAC / USARK that may help???? maybe?
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Stu
Snakes N Gex.com