Reptile & Amphibian Forums

putting aside ALL that keeps us apart. WE MUST WORK TOGETHER. Iron out all things of concern and rally together as a community with common goals.

LET'S DO THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Proud supporter of USARK and Kingsnake.com
“We stand together or we fall apart”

Kyle
www.royalvariations.com

"be safe, be happy and dont let anyone make you afraid"
David Coverdale

Exactly correct. What possible use could it be to air our arguments and disagreements here on an open public forum for all to see? Especially when those differences are so minor in comparison to the overarching goal we all share-assuring the survival of our hobby and, indeed (for most of us), our very way of life!
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

" What possible use could it be to air our arguments and disagreements here on an open public forum for all to see? "

Public awareness . It provides everyone an opportunity to see what others think and feel about various issues. Possibly raise questions and stimulate an interest to take a closer look and to further research various topics. A public exchange of ideas and view points .

The people that would prefer to keep their thoughts a private between exchange between selected party's are free to do so. What purpose does it serve to discourage others who would prefer to voice their opinions openly ? The reason this forum exist is for an open exchange of information. If your fearful the oposition might be spying theres nothing being said here that they don't already know. We need the education

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

You are right mate. we need education, that´s why we participate, my reason at least. I think we develop our own arguments as we go at it, and set examples for other to follow.
We in monkeying around like we have done, we are really setting a good example for others to follow, so we should really be proud of ourselves for spamming wildly all across the forum.
We rock mate!
Hope the mods will leave our wave of rants in peace for future kingsnake members to admire. ^_^

Peace friends
oby

I don't buy it. If we sow dissension in our ranks, not only are we dividing our forces (and making our opponents' victory easier), but we risk handing them (on a silver platter) the levers they need to fragment our defenses. In the recent skirmish in subcommittee, we amply demonstrated our power if we remain united!

If anyone has SOLID EVIDENCE that this organization or that individual or "those" big breeders, dealers, etc.. do not have the best interests of the herp community at heart, then present it. But I have seen way too much idle speculation and conspiracy-theory nonsense being bandied about as fact.

By the way-I'm NOT aiming this at Tom, who I can tell is assiduously digging for facts in this issue. I just think everyone should be more careful with what they bandy about.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

" By the way-I'm NOT aiming this at Tom, who I can tell is assiduously digging for facts in this issue. I just think everyone should be more careful with what they bandy about."

Just like you believe what you want to believe and who you choose to believe , those of us who bandy about our beliefs have our reasons. Some very good reasons.

How about this if you have SOLID EVIDENCE to the contraire that this organization or that individual or "those" big breeders, dealers, etc.. DOES have the best interests of the herp community at heart why don't you present it.

There are obvious points of contention involving the motives of certain individuals and groups. Addressing these conflicts is not sowing dissension in our ranks . It`s being smart . We can all make politically correct comments and all say the right things . We can all be as phony as a three dollar bill to make our selves look good.

The real stand up guys are the ones that shoot from the hip.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

I figure, If some animals are humens, and some humans have rights, then some humans have the right to keep some animals.
But humans also have a duty to respect the rights of other humans.
People must have the right to express concern regarding our treatment of captive reptiles and amphibians. Quite often they may wrong, but some times at least in the past, they have been right to a significant degree.
And all the while we fight with teeth and claws, featheres flying and all, the bosses are taking a break in the middle of the frigging back stabbing festival of the year.
What is this thing? back stabbing festival and the boses don´t join in?!
Is Jeff out on vacation,
or has he just fallen in brumation?
It is difficult to drive the car with no one behind the steering wheel.

regards
oby

quote- "The real stand up guys are the ones that shoot from the hip".

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ok? I think the point was missed, at least the point I was trying to express. I will leave it at that.
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Proud supporter of USARK and Kingsnake.com
“We stand together or we fall apart”

Kyle
www.royalvariations.com

"be safe, be happy and dont let anyone make you afraid"
David Coverdale

"How about this if you have SOLID EVIDENCE to the contraire that this organization or that individual or "those" big breeders, dealers, etc.. DOES have the best interests of the herp community at heart why don't you present it."

You mean you want me to present evidence that these folks are NOT plotting behind-the-scenes deals that sell out the herping community as a whole?

You're asking me to prove a negative. But look at it logically-how can it be in the best interests of PIJAC, big breeders, big wholesalers, USARK, or anyone else in the industry for that matter, to make a deal which will cause substantial damage to the herping community as a whole? After all, the income and well-being (economic and otherwise) of all these entities depends on the "Reptile Nation"(I'm sorry, it's hard for me to get comfortable with that term, having been around long ago at a time when we were hardly even a "Reptile Village )....

Therefore, I say again-the burden of proof for these extraordinary claims is on those who bring them up.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

" Therefore, I say again-the burden of proof for these extraordinary claims is on those who bring them up."

Actually there's nothing extraordinary about any of it. A small amount of business understanding is all that's required. As matter of fact it's VERY sensible. I think your logical views regarding who depends on who might not be quite logical. I'll leave it that.

I'm not asking you to prove anything . I simply offered a reasonable counter point to which you have no answer. Your opinion is just that . You can think say and feel whatever you want and place your trust in whom ever you want.

The burden of proof lies on the individuals and organizations who claim to be acting with everyone's best interest in mind to prove they are. Nobody else.

You`ve been a round along time . Then no one has to tell you that dissension in our ranks is the defining trade mark of the reptile business. I'm not talking about collectors and private breeders but about the real business. No honor among thieves. Those that really have been around and know the buisness understand exactly what Im saying . If they will admit to it or not .............most take the safe road. The one that makes them come off like swell guys.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

we'll have to see if anything comes of all this. I will say that I'll be the first to break out the tar and feathers if there actually IS some kind of dark conspiracy at work here

Just sayin' I highly doubt it....
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

I think We both agree for different reasons . If it works out it won't matter if it doesn't it won't matter ether way it will be what it is.

I also have my doubts about how much their going to get . I don't think some of the guys are going to get their way . For no other reason then things got a little to noisy . Had things remained quite....not good. The UsArk campane was what we needed to keep us in the game..............I'm not breaking out the champagne just yet.

Did you happen to see the article that appeared in Pet Product News International a few years back that was written by a big figure in the trade ? It pretty much trashed backyard breeders and as I recalled suggested that stricter regulation would be a good idea. I remember how po`d I was. The idea would make me money but screw all my friends. I hated it then I hate it now .

For those that don't know

Pet Product News International is a magazine that gets sent out primarily to members of the industry.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

I think you are a good guy Ernie, and in the end I think It will work out because we are both fighting for a good cause. You are a brave soldier with sharp teeth and a fierce will in defense of animals but you are not the one pulling the strings, who is?

I understand Mr. Hiduke played a part in formation of the final stages of NRIP, who whithin the pet industry (not PIJAC) constructed the first drafts to NRIP?
We have shed lights on some problems of NRIP and we seem to have discovered that there is both good and bad in this initiative.
Perhaps we just need to weed the fields before we progress towards a more sustinable future? With the biggest weeds gone, there will be room for many new organisms to prosper.
Perhaps the dinosaurs went almost extinct for a good reason, so we get to keep them as pets with-out them eating us for brekfast. ^_^

Regards
obeligz

We should be ruthless and make no compromise in examination of our own oppinions, we owe that to the animals we speak on behalf of in my oppinion.

regards
oby

Take a side!
Where do you stand?
Speak up people, don´t be shy.
The worst thing we can do is to wait.
There is no time to loose and a lot is at stake.
Can we afford to idle any longer?

Best wishes
oby

" but you are not the one pulling the strings, who is? "

That is the big question . I think only the string pullers know for sure. These typically are the guys with the most money . This sometimes can be offset by winning the popular vote.

This bill was no secret . Everyone knew it was comming for a good while. It involves a 40 billion dollar a year industry and huge fortune 500 corporations. Also many substantial business`s from a variety of live animal related industry's. Still it seems impossible to get straight answers to basic questions. You would think some advanced planning took place? Like I've said all along it will be very tough to pass Federal legislation that allows one company to do business while putting another company in the same field under regardless of size. Is this even possible ? I guess we'll find out.

The reptile business falls into a weird space from a business perspective. There's no exclusive reptile giants to hang our hat on but as the saying go`s 4 singles is like a home run.

I just hope the hitters are all batting for us. The general reptile guys need runs along with fan support.

In all fairness Id have to say UsArk has stood for up for us as well as they could.

To me compromise means if you give something up you get some thing back . I don't think compromise is a deal where I leave with less then I came with.

The big cat and primate people have been getting hammered forever and to this point they have protected their freedom as well as the reptile guys. Does anyone know if Pijac lobby's on their behalf.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

We all need a stroke of luck once in a while. I don´t believe in the popular vote but in the reason and understanding of the independent individuals of society. I don´t believe I have a soul, but I believe there lives a good will in all individuals.
They say that the dog is mans best friend but that is really dependent on the point of view, if you are on the wrong side of the leash and the dog is barking against you then the dog may be your worst enemy.

Regarding planning, some responsible owners prefer to give their dogs some freedom to be all dog they can be, pee on every tree and salute the foxes in the chicken pen. There is also the reptilian principle, if something is chasing you, run faster! If something is running away, chase faster! If this bill was no secret then it is logical I think that we are locked in a uniquely inspiring knot of opinions and best intentions right now, this must be our destiny,

I see a compromise in relation to myself AND the environment.
My world isn´t just me, it´s me and the biosphere.
In any compromise I make on behalf of myself, I must also consider the biosphere.
Normally my choices are half-automated, in that I by certain brands of products, avoid sponsoring certain organizations and so on.

The reason I am here is also because the legislation in norway is affected by the legislation in the US so a degree I consider significant at least. So in order to safe guard my rights to keep reptiles I have to battle demons across the ocean. Thank heaven for the internet.

I have given up a whole part of my life, ain´t that nothing? Since I was caught keeping illegal reptiles in 2004 I have spent on average perhaps 4-5 hours daily almost every day, almost the whole year round.
Normally I don´t bear grudges but I do bear a grudge against the movement that [bleep]ed up my life 5 years ago. When we place the stakes at the table let us not forget to include the freedoms which the animals organizations have stolen away from the people?

Respectfully, let us try to come to turns.
We should have no interest in defending the honor of the greedy vultures at the top, even though they once were high-flying eagles.

Kindest regards
obeligz

Back from work, nothing has happened at kingsnake. No replies? no comments, no thoughts from any part. I must have stepped well out of line.
I noticed some of you guys like to use irony, riddles and hidden text between the lines in yur posts.
Sometimes I pick up your riddles, sometimes they completely escape me and sometimes I understand the complete opposite.
Riddles, irony and hidden messages require knowledge of the culture of the recipient. Even though I know how to speak english, I have never been to the US, and I don´t know your culture very well, please excuse my supidity.
I didn´t mean to offend you in any way, truly sorry. please accept my sincere apologies, I didn´t mean to behave like an idiot.

Kindest regards
oby

For one I enjoy reading your post. Sometimes it's hard for me to fully understand what your saying and your jokes but I like it. You speak english much better than I speak your language so go for it....lol
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

no need to apologize,

When you care enough to post and you add a new way of thinking to the equation it allows us to evolve.
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Proud supporter of USARK and Kingsnake.com
“We stand together or we fall apart”

Kyle
www.royalvariations.com

"be safe, be happy and dont let anyone make you afraid"
David Coverdale

"You`ve been a round along time . Then no one has to tell you that dissension in our ranks is the defining trade mark of the reptile business. I'm not talking about collectors and private breeders but about the real business. No honor among thieves. Those that really have been around and know the buisness understand exactly what Im saying . If they will admit to it or not .............most take the safe road. The one that makes them come off like swell guys."

Ernie, to whom are you referring to?

Randal Berry

" Then no one has to tell you that dissension in our ranks is the defining trade mark of the reptile business. I'm not talking about collectors and private breeders but about the real business. No honor among thieves."

" Ernie, to whom are you referring to? "

No one in particular as you know there are many examples . Its to often par for the course. That is my 100% honest opinion . Should I sugar coat it ?

Lots of hand shakes , lots of promises, lots of lies, lots of back stabbing between friends and foes a like. Lots of people who justify their actions . I seriously don't know how some of these guys live with themselves.

I`m not saying it's any better or worse then other business`s. It is what it is. Money is the root of all evil . Very true. It corrupts . What saddens me is when someone I like stabs somebody else in the back over some reptile deal.

I love the animals but there's a lot I dislike about the business.

There are people that I have a world of respect for and they know who they are. Then there's the others they know who they are to. I don't pretend to be someone's pal just because its the right business move. Its not me.

The collectors , private breeders some of them very large , and a lot of people I know who just want a pet reptile because they like it. All these people need the business . Like everything in life you take the good with the bad.

From a moral stand point I defiantly feel anyone should be able to do and keep what they want as long as their capable and until they prove otherwise . That I'll be happy to stand up for. The business that's a little tougher . How can anyone support one and not the other ? We`er back at you take the good with the bad.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

The pet insustry id flooding private herpetoculture on cheap plastic roots and plants for the so called "naturalistic" vivarium. In some cases it has been documented that reptiles have died from impactation due to ingestion of blastic furniture in the terrarium.
In some countries there is a spreading concern that old plastic bottles may be harmful towards human babies.
The production of plastic decoration for the terrarium has an ecological footprint which is only on our power to address perhaps.
There are better alternatives to plastic in a TERRArium, mm?

oby

It´s two sides of the same thing really..
The villagers seek to keep the wolves at bay while the nation fights the monsters in society.
I bet things are going really bad in the background, we have heard no good news regarding HR669 lately and also S373 is drawing closer while we are panicking in here..
Still, I haven´t found any substantial reason to suggest that USark is plotting behind the scenes with PIJAC to make miserable the daily life of the hobby enthusiast.
If you can´t find evidence, perhaps you could help development of a credible speculation in regard to their motives?

regards
oby

Ernie even though I agree with most of your posts in theory I don't see or hear from anyone of anything your actually doing about this matter but spouting bravado accusations and inuenndo's on a forum or two. None of my concerns I originally posted are known without a doubt to be 100% factual. I have said this from day 1. You on the other hand without posting any proof spout statements you make as fact but give no proof of any kind that you are correct. Yes, I do think you may be correct but I don't know that for sure and neither do you. Sometimes your posts are clear and concise and other posts are a mixture of misspelled words and runon sentences that are difficult for me to decipher. If you figured this stuff out and had proof how come you didn't make the original post with a warning like I did? I believe your heart is in the right place but your cup runnith over with prose. To be fair some of your post lately seem to be filled with paranoia. Remember when I sent you a p.m. before I posted asking you to call me? Remember it said I believe I MAY know what MIGHT be going on? I remember sending it BUT YOU DIDN'T CONTACT ME to discuss your ideas along with me telling you mine. You consistently lay claim to being a big part of the Industry since the 70's yet I've never heard of you until a few years ago. Where were you at? I was there in living color for all to see. If you say you were "under the radar" I would have to say you were the best kept secret in an Industry know to have few secrets. We need all the help we can get but positive actual deeds and not brash statements made at random which do little good and possible harm. Every single day I'm in contact with MANY folks regarding a solution to these attack's by AR group's. Additionally I've been working for months since the NOI pushed out by USFWS with USARK and others. I was at the meeting in Chicago and the CITIES meeting in Miami. You were at neither. Why did you not attend? Chicago was a long way and cost money but you live in Lehigh Acres which is in S.W. Fl and is reasonbly close to Miami but you didn't attend that meeting either. We need all the help we can get but I'm a bit confused over what you actually are doing or hope to accomplish. My goal is to defeat this bill without any compromise of rights. What is yours and what are you doing to help?..Thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Maybe we are not sowing dissension in our ranks, we have to find room for compromise, but perhaps we can plot a more responsible and sustainable course for the future.

When we are more in agreement, we will stand even stronger united I think.

Regards
oby

I would like a united front with all of us working toward a single goal and that's to defeat this heinous attack on our industry...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

United front, what are you talking about!? No one gives a [bleep]!
We are just 30 happy activists in a merry mud slinging marathon.
50.000 letters? then I figure we are about 250.000 voices short, not to say 25 million.
But we can´t give up no, can we?

regards
oby

Oby,

This is what I have been working on - education and realization within this very industry. This indutsry and the people in it are a dynamic bunch, opinions and views change constantly, financial situations change, people get in then out, people break the law and they follow the law, people are hypocritical and they are honest, people collect and sell wild caught and then justify why what they did is not commercial collection. Some are very strict about only buying captive born others it doesn't matter. Some people work with one species one week and another the next. Minds are open and they are closed. Some are in it for the money and don't care about the animals and others could care less about money and they obsess over the animals. Some are good at husbandry and others suck at it. Some just enjoy collecting and not keeping, others don't know a thing about collecting but are excellent keepers. Some folks use to do certain activites but now "have seen the light" and are now "holier than thou." I could go on and one about the dynamics.

So because we are so dynamic we need to discuss issues and debate points but what it all MUST come down to is banding together to fight our common enemies. We ALL must protect everyone's right to participate in these top 5 items: sustainable harvest, breeding, possessing any species we choose, the right to transport and the right to commerce in live herps. The HR 669 bill is just one bill. There have been other bills and regulations mostly at the state level that threatened and outlawed some of the top 5 items that we were divided on.

We need to make this real simple, that is, what we stand for. We all must be on the same page with the same focus. I don't trust the intentions of some within this industry. The only way to earn trust is to show by action and commitment that you will fight the good fight.

As far as my personal collection HR 669 doesn't affect me but I know its wrong and I know where it will lead. And I will fight all bad laws. My only worry is that when it comes to issues I care about will these same folks back me? When my state tries to outlaw the sale of wild caught will the gray-band breeders fight to stop something so ridiculous? Will PIJAC cave into PARC and big breeders to hurt the small breeders and the dealers in wild caught? Will recreational hobbyists continue to sell out commercial interests? Will snake breeders continue to sell out turtle breeders? Will recreational folks continue to buy into academic hype?

Divide and conquer is a strategy they will continue to use. Will folks in this industry continue to fall for it? Will brothers continue to sell out brothers?

Again, we need to set some very simple positions that protect everyone in this industry and stick to them like the NRA. This is the only way we will be victorious. No compromise, no back stabbing, no brown nosers and no selling out.

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

This just came in through REXANO, what the heck is AB1122?
My head is spinning, how do you remember and differentiate between all these bans and numbers?
oby

The truth is if we do not stop HSUS NOW TODAY HERE & NOW, this year or next or the next could very well be the end of dog & cat shows & bird shows, horse shows, ALL SHOWS.
 
Do you ALL really think you can hide once these punitive laws go through?
 
Do you ALL really think that these laws will not be used AND ABUSED  against breeders?
 
Do you realize that as certain areas become more stringent and more restrictive that the exhibitors will decline? registrations will decline as people reduce their number of animals? gene pools will shrink... and where will that leave the registries and the Fancy?
 
If EVERYONE does not start to become politically ACTIVE to push back the HSUS advance to end breeding, we will see THE END OF THE FANCY.
 
WE HAVE THE NUMBERS! WE THE PEOPLE have the power to stop this because we are many and we can and should demand our rights. Call your representatives, visit them, and let them know you are very disturbed with punitive pet laws against a longtime American pasttime -- raising and breeding animals.
 
Please, each one of you, no matter where you live, support those of us in areas under the hammer!
Please please please make the calls!
 
On Weds., California will hear AB 1122 in Appropriations Committee. Call and say that it WILL IMPACT THE state's revenue. That YOU will not be coming to shows anymore if it passes! And askHOW IS IT THAT a BANKRUPT state's legislature can even be considering such legislation when schools are closing, unemployment is reaching critical mass?
 
Here are the links to the Committee members on each bill:
AB 1122 (Ban on Animal Sales):
Author: Assemblymember Ted Lieu ******(916) 319-2053*******
Fax: (916) 319-2153
District Office: (310) 615-3515/615-3520(fax)
 
   APPROPRIATIONS COMMITTEE (17)-De León (Chair), Nielsen (Vice
 Chair), Ammiano, Calderon, Davis, Duvall, Fuentes, Hall, Harkey, Miller, J. Pérez, Price, Skinner, Solorio, Strickland, Torlakson,  Chief Consultant:  Geoff Long.  Principal Consultants: 
 Mary Adèr, Jay Dickenson, Chuck Nicol, Kimberly Rodriguez, Julie
 Salley-Gray, Brad Williams.  Secretary: Laura Lynn Gondek. Room
 2114.  Phone:  ****(916)319-2081******.
 
Kevin de Leon - Chair  Dem-45 (916) 319-2045 Assemblymember.deLeon@assembly.ca.gov 
Jim Nielsen - Vice Chair  Rep-2 (916) 319-2002 Assemblymember.Nielsen@assembly.ca.gov 
Tom Ammiano  Dem-13 (916) 319-2013 Assemblymember.Ammiano@assembly.ca.gov 
Charles M. Calderon  Dem-58 (916) 319-2058 Assemblymember.Calderon@assembly.ca.gov 
Mike Davis  Dem-48 (916) 319-2048 Assemblymember.Davis@assembly.ca.gov 
Michael D. Duvall  Rep-72 (916) 319-2072 Assemblymember.Duvall@assembly.ca.gov 
Felipe Fuentes  Dem-39 (916) 319-2039 Assemblymember.fuentes@assembly.ca.gov 
Isadore Hall III  Dem-52 (916) 319-2052 Assemblymember.Hall@assembly.ca.gov 
Diane L. Harkey  Rep-73 916) 319-2073 Assemblymember.Harkey@assembly.ca.gov 
Jeff Miller  Rep-71 (916) 319-2071 Assemblymember.Miller@assembly.ca.gov 
John A. Pérez  Dem-46 (916) 319-2046 Assemblymember.John.Perez@assembly.ca.gov 
Curren D. Price Jr.  Dem-51 (916) 319-2051 Assemblymember.Price@assembly.ca.gov 
Nancy Skinner  Dem-14 (916) 319-2014 Assemblymember.Skinner@assembly.ca.gov 
Jose Solorio  Dem-69 (916) 319-2069 Assemblymember.solorio@assembly.ca.gov 
Audra Strickland  Rep-37 (916) 319-2037 Assemblymember.strickland@assembly.ca.gov 
Tom Torlakson  Dem-11 (916) 319-2011 Assemblymember.Torlakson@assembly.ca.gov 
 
CALL & MAKE A FUSS LIKE I KNOW YOU CAN!
THANK YOU!!!!!
 
If you can join us on Weds, May 6th, at the Capitol, please come!
Diane Amble
(650) 296-2169

"Every year in California, dogs, cats, birds, reptiles, amphibians are sold at flea markets, swap meets and on the side of the road. These animals suffer from health problems and are often housed in overcrowded, unsanitary conditions."

- http://animalplacesanctuary.blogspot.com/2009/04/californians-support-ab-1122.html

"Did you know that here in California, dogs, cats and other pet animals, particularly young ones, are being sold at flea markets and swap meets in terrible conditions? These animals are often kept in crowded pens or cages that are unsanitary, without food and/or water, in extreme heat and direct sunlight. They are handled by shoppers and purchased on impulse."

- http://ga4.org/uan/notice-description.tcl?newsletter_id=32860283

AB 1122
Animal abuse: sale of live animals: flea markets.

- http://www.totalcapitol.com/?bill_id=9616

We are not as many as you may think, despite the 50.000 letters...
Most of us don´t have the competence and capasity, or will and understanding, to effectively halt AB 1122, AND HR669, AND S373, AND I don´t know what more...
And the government is not helping us much, on the contrary in some respects...
And the medias are not helping us much either. on the contrary in some places...
We are dead meat for the AR movement to reap.
We are a small community, the reptile people, in the grand scale of things, we are just a tiny percentage of the community. A straw in the wind.
Luckily we have good roots which are firmly planted in culture and science.
We can make a difference, if we sacrifice some time.
How much time do we need to spend working in solidarity to defend the right to responsible animal husbandry against all the numbers of bills which keep hitting us in the head each year?
I fear we may have the best intentions, only there are just not enough hours in the day. Not enough time between sunrise and sunset and the hour glass may be nearing the turning point.
It is not my intention to spread doomsday prophecies, I just tend to reach this type of conclusion in dialogue with concerned fellow terrarium keepers some times.
Please help make a convincing counter argument.

I´m off to bed and in for a long work week, will have less time for kingsnake.

Wishing all a great week! ^_^
oby

I find OHI´s thoughts on herpetocultural dynamics very interesting.
I also believe in the 5 rights in responsible herpetoculture,

The right to harvest in a responsible manner, the right to responsible bioculture, the right to free choice of companionship, the right to responsible transport and the right to responsible commerce in live or dead animals.

We are few, very few, but there is an increasing feeling of unrest amongst animal friends around us and often people and even governments will listen to us if we are able to provide propper arguments in sufficient force.
On a small note we have won a big victory but in the grand scale of things we are loosing out little by little across the globe and this has been going on for some time.

I think you may win over HR669 in the end, if you are persistent, but in the end, at present it seems to me like we are fighting a loosing battle.

Animal rights organizations are terrorizing animal keepers across the globe. In the US, AR organizations are very large, and have a lot of money, but AR organizations across the globe have lots of money. Global-size the HR669 battle and PIJAC stands out in a Davids battle with the Goliaths of the modern world.

"Most smuggled animals are sold in private trade and at street
markets. "

"AB 1122 is authored by Assembly Member Ted Lieu (D-Torrance) d co-sponsored by the State Humane Association of California."
- Says the California Animal Association
http://www.californiaanimalassociation.com/bills/AB1122_2009.html

Member Organizations
ASPCA
Animal Place
Born Free USA United with API
Food Empowerment Project
The Humane Society of the United States
League of Humane Voters
Orange County People for Animals
The Paw Project
People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals
San Diego Animal Advocates
United Animal Nations

POW!
That´s a powerful bunch of allies! I wonder if Californian herpetoculturists feel pressured sometimes..

Check out their "Bills Affecting Companion Animals" section, to long to copy in here.. I suspect many of them have one or more significant elements of injustice.

Bills bills.html
http://www.californiaanimalassociation.com/bills/bills.html

I think is the reptile nation unites again in response to AR 1122, then perhaps give the California Animal Association a piece of your mind.
Perhaps make a statement, be unpredictable, once in a while, go for the roots instead of the bills of AR organizations. If a bad piece of legislation is a big problem, then logically, the AR organizations are the root of that problem, the fault lies not only in the politicians passing the laws or the voting peoples.

Try writing them a letter, will you get a response at all or will the response be silence?
If you call them, will they say in your face that you are a criminal? Would they care to share their wisdom with the reptile nation, reptile radio and the global herpetocultural community?
Would they care to front the reptile nation in the newspapers or is it possible for some one to bring a cam and visit them in person in peace at their office for an interview?
They are gathering a mountain of money under pretense of "Providing expertise on a wide range of animal protection issues to legislators, aides, department officials and others".
Can they document that money is all spent on a good purposes? They need to hear from you guys, call them personally, get involved personally, talk nicely to them and
and trust that the fellow californians will back you up when the time comes.

I think it would be wise of us to make them aware that we are unpredictable and not to be underestimated. Perhaps we should stop talking [bleep] behind the back of CAA and confront them directly?
Start posing questions and the AR grow uncertain, questions take some time to compute and often AR organizations will have a pile of bones in their closet. We all should thru sniffing around a lil, or at least pretend to bluff to some degree.
Sow a tiny seed of uncertainty in an AR organization and you may see it grow into a moral tree of fright.

perhaps you have read before but, bears re-posting now and then;

Animal Rights & the Future of the Pet Industry

By Chris Newman

- http://www.rexano.org/ARandFutureofPetIndustryFrame.htm

"Chris was the publisher of the Reptilian magazine, the UK’s first specialist reptile & amphibian publication, from 1991 to 2003. He is currently the chairman of the Federation of British Herpetologists and the Federation of Companion Animal Societies. He is consultant to the Reptile and Exotic Pet Trade Association & advisor to the Pet Care Trust and National Association of Private Animals Keepers on herpetological (reptile & amphibian) issues, as well as a consultant to the fresh produce (fruit) industry on arachnological and herpetological pests. He has also acted in an advisory capacity for Customs and Excise, the police and Local Authorities. He has had numerous articles and papers published, both in journals and magazines, as well as authoring several books on the subject of reptiles."

When things calm a bit down around us, maybe Andrew should meet with Chris on reptile radio if they can find the time.. they are both very very busy these days I expect..

Regards
oby

doublesnip

Letters to the Editor
SNIP

Malonas comparisons odious
I abhor Mr. Malonas comparison of human slavery to animal ownership and/or companionship. Civil rights is not a suitable argument in regard to animals.
His ideals seem egalitarian in nature and are textbook animal-rights oriented. Our readers may have missed this when he referenced the writings of Gary Francione and Peter Singer, two well known animal rights philosophers. Singer's book, "Animal Liberation" is the widely regarded by Animal Rights activists as a "Bible."
Singer, hard utilitarian- minded, debated Judge Richard Posner of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 7th Circuit with a very similar argument as Mr. Malonas, in 2001 at Slate Magazine, saying that formerly unequal rights for gays, women and oppressed races were justified using the same set of intuitions.
Posner responded that equality in civil rights did not occur due to ethical arguments and that there was no basis for inequality based on any of those facts. He went on to say that facts, not ethical arguments, will drive equality and that animals must be considered property, legally, in order for us to have pets.
Of course the whole concept of owning any kind of pets is against the animal rights movement's agenda. They will not advertise this publicly as it would lessen monetary donations by well-meaning people who want to help animals but have no concept that they are helping take animals out of our lives.
Their agenda is to prohibit rodeos, horse racing, circuses, hunting, life-saving medical research using animals, raising of livestock for food, petting zoos, marine parks, breeding of purebred pets, any use of animals for industry, entertainment, sport or recreation and companionship.
The animal rights movement does have an extremist branch. ALF, Animal Liberation Front, is an example. In 2005 the U.S. Department of Homeland Security added them to its list of domestic terrorist threats. Just this week, an American animal rights activist, Daniel Andreas, San Diego, became the first "domestic terrorist" to be added to the FBI's "most wanted" terrorist list.
My animals are members of my family and the very idea that there are extremists out there who threaten members of my family is overwhelming. I maintain my stance and still hold hope that Nevadans have enough info needed to make well-informed decisions regarding law and their pets. It is also our jobs as constituents to keep our representatives abreast of all relevant information regarding any type of legislation that special interest groups try to slip under the radar.
RHONDA KIKER
Reno

Brad,

I don't see it as a bad thing to have public discussion on this,
for a couple reasons:

- Even if some AR wackos are reading this, it's not necessarily a bad thing for your enemy to know you are going to fight back.
In fact, I think it's a good thing. With regard to corrupt government scientists (who play a big part in the hysteria/propaganda), imo, we are not outspoken enough. If any of those corrupt scientists are reading this, great. I'm not sure I understand what exactly it is that you are so afraid of with these "public" discussions?

- I want to know what others are thinking. I might be overly idealistic, but I strongly disagree with back-room or "behind-the-scenes" compromises. Not only on ethical grounds, but I also want to know if and how soon I should just give up fighting this. If there is no long term strategy(ies) other than writing a s***load of letters and making a s***load of phone calls every 3 to 6 months, them I'm out. That ain't gonna work, imo.

For better or worse, I want things out in the open. Our country wouldn't be in such bad shape as it is if things were out in the open and the truth exposed and junk science attacked. That's just my opinion.

Thanks,
Ed

>>Exactly correct. What possible use could it be to air our arguments and disagreements here on an open public forum for all to see? Especially when those differences are so minor in comparison to the overarching goal we all share-assuring the survival of our hobby and, indeed (for most of us), our very way of life!
>>-----
>>Brad Chambers
>>WWW.HCU-TX.ORG
>>
>>The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Ed,

I agree with you to a certain extent. A forum is a place where one should be able to talk about any topic and give your opinion even when it may not be popular with others who engage in the forum. Its good to air out problems and get people thinking about ways to improve and get better.

I think it might be inevitable in this day and age that one has to defend certain ideologies and practices (like herps). You might have to write some letters (its good to save your response as a Word document for the next go around) and make some phone calls. Are keeping herps worth it? I certainly believe so. After doing this for longer than many of you have been alive, I can't imagine an existence without herps (women and food are on this list also).

While it might be impossible to completely stop the onslaught, one can help stem the tide until a successful solution can be found and implemented. We, as herpers, have been somewhat responsible for the way many view our hobby/profession. Some of the defeats that we are bound to incur may only help to rectify and strengthen our resolve and our rights to the enjoyment that these scaly and unscaly quadrapeds bring us. Give a good fight and keep on herping!

Swiss

Ed-

My problem is that, in hashing out all of our arguments and strategies on an open forum, we are in the process giving away said arguments, stategies, tactics etc. to our opponents-who will be greatly aided in planning their own responses and tactics for the inevitable "round 2". It's as simple as that.

Swiss-that is one of the most gorgeous vipers I've ever laid eyes on-is it yours?!
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

That is one of several that I've got, but is not my prettiest one. Juveniles, like the one below, take a while to pick up the colors. These are some of the snakes I'll eventually have to go underground with if we somehow don't prevail.

swiss