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Gender Question

jaymiller242 May 03, 2009 06:24 PM

I have what I think is a reasonable Question from a friend of mine. I have never raised Tortoise's before but I guess you can kind of select the gender or increase your odds one way or the other by the incubation temps from what a breeder at a reptile show told me. Now my buddy asked me if the same thing is possible with snakes and I told him I have never heard of people trying to beef up the odds of one gender or another by temps but I told him I would put it out here to those that may know or those that may have tried. Thanks
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JEM from sunny AZ.

2.19 Normals
5.9 Pastels
3.6 Normal Spiders
1.3 Orange/Butterscotch Ghosts(BallPython777 Mark Petros)
1.1 Spiders 100% het Ghost(thanks Mark Petros)
0.2 Spiders 66% het Ghost
0.3 66% het Orange Ghost
0.1 Pastel Ghost
0.1 Super Pastel 100% het Ghost
1.0 Albino
1.0 Caramel Albino
0.4 100% het for Albino
0.3 50% het for Albino
1.2 100% het for Clowns
1.2 Cinnamons
1.2 100% het for Pied
0.3 66% het for Pied
1.3 Mojaves
1.1 Beautiful Black Pastels(thanks Gulf Coast Reptiles)
1.1 BumbleBees(thanks for the AWESOME Bees Marc Bailey)
1.0 Super Pastel
0.1 Chocolates(Thanks Brandon of Priceless Pythons)
1.1 Lessers
2.1 Fire's(Thanks Brandon of Priceless Pythons)
1.2 High White Calico's(Thanks Brent from BRB)
1.1 SpotNoses(Thanks Brandon of Priceless Pythons)
0.1 Yellow Belly
1.0 Enchi
1.0 Pinstripe
0.1 Lemon Blast
1.0 Vanilla Ghost(Thanks again GCR for all the great snakes)

17 Tarantulas
Last but most Important 2.2 Children

Replies (9)

toshamc May 03, 2009 07:14 PM

You may be able to in some snakes I don't know -- but balls you cannot.
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Tosha
JET Pythons
Toshas Blog

Herp Medicine does not equal a bottle of Baytril - Dr. Scott Stahl

Bolitochrome May 03, 2009 07:51 PM

Currently there are no known species of snake that display Temperature Dependent Sex Determination.
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1.1 ball pythons
1.1 kingsnakes
0.1 crazy cat
?.? ASFs
1.0 husband

RandyRemington May 04, 2009 12:39 AM

From what I've read it sounds like snake gender is determined by chromosomes. However, unlike humans where the gender is determined by the father giving either an x or a y snakes are like birds with the mother's contribution of either a z or a w determining the gender.

illbeyoursoldier May 04, 2009 09:06 AM

Yeah, definitely not gender... But I have been told that you can make solid strip (normal) babies by screwing with the incubator temps a certain way... I think its a change in temps at a certain point of development or something. I have no idea if this is science-based fact, but just thought I'd throw that out there!
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Cheers!
• Chelsea Lynn Gardiner
(and Frank M. Wood)

Bolitochrome May 04, 2009 05:22 PM

Now that I have time to give a longer response:

Almost all reptile (and avian) sexes are determined by chromosomes, as previously stated, Z and W. Unlike in humans and mammals, females are heterozygous (ZW) whereas males are homozygous (ZZ). This is why some species that use spontaneous parthenogenesis, virgin birth or produce fertile eggs without mating, can produce both males and females because the mother's chromosomes can recombine into both ZZ and ZWs.

Too high/too low incubation temperatures in snakes and lizards have resulted in animals which are too pale, too dark, are missing or have extra scales, missing eyes, and can even affect temperament. None of these traits are heritable, however.

In particular, snakes incubated at too cool temperatures can emerge to be overly aggressive. Last I read it was hypothesized that this was due to an evolutionary adaptation to the cold. Hatchlings that hatch into a colder environment are more likely to be prey and will have to compete more for prey for themselves. Therefore, higher aggression should help them survive.

Ok, that's all I got. Hope that answers your questions. :D
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1.1 ball pythons
1.1 kingsnakes
0.1 crazy cat
?.? ASFs
1.0 husband

jaymiller242 May 04, 2009 10:37 PM

you all or Ya'll have been more than helpful in answering this question. Now I can tell my buddy to look at this string of messages and he will have more of an answer than he could have hoped for. Hey if anyone knows about the stripe thing mentioned by Chelsea Lynn Gardiner I think that would be quite a cool thing to try with the Cinnies, Spiders or Pinstripes. Thanks again and good luck to everyone this year.
-----
JEM from sunny AZ.

2.19 Normals
5.9 Pastels
3.6 Normal Spiders
1.3 Orange/Butterscotch Ghosts(BallPython777 Mark Petros)
1.1 Spiders 100% het Ghost(thanks Mark Petros)
0.2 Spiders 66% het Ghost
0.3 66% het Orange Ghost
0.1 Pastel Ghost
0.1 Super Pastel 100% het Ghost
1.0 Albino
1.0 Caramel Albino
0.4 100% het for Albino
0.3 50% het for Albino
1.2 100% het for Clowns
1.2 Cinnamons
1.2 100% het for Pied
0.3 66% het for Pied
1.3 Mojaves
1.1 Beautiful Black Pastels(thanks Gulf Coast Reptiles)
1.1 BumbleBees(thanks for the AWESOME Bees Marc Bailey)
1.0 Super Pastel
0.1 Chocolates(Thanks Brandon of Priceless Pythons)
1.1 Lessers
2.1 Fire's(Thanks Brandon of Priceless Pythons)
1.2 High White Calico's(Thanks Brent from BRB)
1.1 SpotNoses(Thanks Brandon of Priceless Pythons)
0.1 Yellow Belly
1.0 Enchi
1.0 Pinstripe
0.1 Lemon Blast
1.0 Vanilla Ghost(Thanks again GCR for all the great snakes)

17 Tarantulas
Last but most Important 2.2 Children

Paul Hollander May 05, 2009 01:07 PM

As I recall, back in the 1970s, a guy named Vinegar had a piece in Copeia about lower incubation temperatures producing striped patterns in Burmese pythons. Trouble is that the incubation temperatures were so low that all of the babies died in the egg. If the babies survive, low incubation temperatures tend to produce smaller, poorer-feeding babies than those incubated normally. And there are genetic striped ball pythons. So, while it might make an interesting project, there hasn't been any economic incentive for anyone to do it.

Paul Hollander

jaymiller242 May 05, 2009 06:19 PM

Very good. You are right, seems like good reason to try doing that since a bad or unpredictable outcome seems to be what is in store. Thanks for the help in this area.
-----
JEM from sunny AZ.

2.20 Normals
5.9 Pastels
3.6 Normal Spiders
1.3 Orange/Butterscotch Ghosts(BallPython777 Mark Petros)
1.1 Spiders 100% het Ghost(thanks Mark Petros)
0.2 Spiders 66% het Ghost
0.3 66% het Orange Ghost
0.1 Pastel Ghost
0.1 Super Pastel 100% het Ghost
2.0 Albino
1.0 Caramel Albino
0.4 100% het for Albino
0.5 50% het for Albino
0.4 Yellow Bellies
1.2 100% het for Clowns
1.2 Cinnamons
1.2 100% het for Pied
0.3 66% het for Pied
1.3 Mojaves
1.1 Beautiful Black Pastels(thanks Gulf Coast Reptiles)
1.1 BumbleBees(thanks for the AWESOME Bees Marc Bailey)
1.0 Super Pastel
0.1 Chocolates(Thanks Brandon of Priceless Pythons)
1.1 Lessers
2.1 Fire's(Thanks Brandon of Priceless Pythons)
1.2 High White Calico's(Thanks Brent from BRB)
1.1 SpotNoses(Thanks Brandon of Priceless Pythons)
1.0 Enchi
1.0 Pinstripe
0.1 Lemon Blast
1.0 Vanilla Ghost(Thanks again GCR for all the great snakes)

17 Tarantulas
Last but most Important 2.2 Children

jaymiller242 May 05, 2009 06:21 PM

That should have said SEEMS LIKE NO GOOD REASON to try messing with the temps then given the rather bleak outcome. thanks
-----
JEM from sunny AZ.

2.20 Normals
5.9 Pastels
3.6 Normal Spiders
1.3 Orange/Butterscotch Ghosts(BallPython777 Mark Petros)
1.1 Spiders 100% het Ghost(thanks Mark Petros)
0.2 Spiders 66% het Ghost
0.3 66% het Orange Ghost
0.1 Pastel Ghost
0.1 Super Pastel 100% het Ghost
2.0 Albino
1.0 Caramel Albino
0.4 100% het for Albino
0.5 50% het for Albino
0.4 Yellow Bellies
1.2 100% het for Clowns
1.2 Cinnamons
1.2 100% het for Pied
0.3 66% het for Pied
1.3 Mojaves
1.1 Beautiful Black Pastels(thanks Gulf Coast Reptiles)
1.1 BumbleBees(thanks for the AWESOME Bees Marc Bailey)
1.0 Super Pastel
0.1 Chocolates(Thanks Brandon of Priceless Pythons)
1.1 Lessers
2.1 Fire's(Thanks Brandon of Priceless Pythons)
1.2 High White Calico's(Thanks Brent from BRB)
1.1 SpotNoses(Thanks Brandon of Priceless Pythons)
1.0 Enchi
1.0 Pinstripe
0.1 Lemon Blast
1.0 Vanilla Ghost(Thanks again GCR for all the great snakes)

17 Tarantulas
Last but most Important 2.2 Children

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