Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Wording in the proposed bill is a bit weak, but I believe it would include reptile shows:

http://democrats.assembly.ca.gov/members/a53/Pressroom/Press/20090421AD53PR01.aspx

http://leginfo.ca.gov/pub/09-10/bill/asm/ab_1101-1150/ab_1122_bill_20090423_amended_asm_v97.pdf

The war is upon us...

Thanks,
Ed

Sorry to reply to my own message, but after re-reading the bill, it's not clear to me if and how this would relate to INDOOR events. I would imagine most animal/reptile shows are indoors. The bill itself, while poorly worded, seems to target OUTDOOR activities. But per e-mail from USARK, "This is an attempt to end ALL Reptile Shows and 'face to face' sales that are the basis for much of how the middle and high end of our market distributes animals. It would eliminate almost ALL sales except from pet shops. Reptile Shows and open air auctions/sales would come to an end in CA."

Not sure what to make of this...

Thanks,
Ed

>>Wording in the proposed bill is a bit weak, but I believe it would include reptile shows:
>>
>>http://democrats.assembly.ca.gov/members/a53/Pressroom/Press/20090421AD53PR01.aspx
>>
>>http://leginfo.ca.gov/pub/09-10/bill/asm/ab_1101-1150/ab_1122_bill_20090423_amended_asm_v97.pdf
>>
>>The war is upon us...
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Ed

I think this is yet another attempt to control a small problem with a vague, open-ended proposal. My assumption is that the people of CA would like to put a stop to cardboard boxes of puppy mill puppies at flea markets, pet store parking lots, etc. I'm behind that, but the lack of specifics makes this bill also put a stop to franchise store sponsored pet adoptions that we all have seen in front of pet stores. Are those my favorite way to find adoptive homes? Absolutely not. Do some decent adoptions happen at these satellite shelters? You bet they do. I'm not thinking that reptile shows are even a consideration in this bill, but a side-effect casualty of poor wording and open ended legislation.

When we take on these fights, those of us who love the scaley critters are going to need to find a more PR-friendly partner to fight with. As much as it sucks, reptile people are not going to get the same sort of audience that dog and cat people do. Whenever we can, we need to alert the more warm & fuzzy groups to protest. In this case, I think working with dog and cat rescue groups in CA would be the best option along with corporate entity PetSmart since they draw a lot of foot traffic with their Saturday adoption days.
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Julie
www.[url ban]/gfx

Hi Julie,

I agree with you, looks like the sponsors just made it generic to include all animals even though the original intent was to
address puppy mills.

What is confusing is the USARK email. As paranoid as I am, I
don't see the bill preventing all reptile shows and "face-to-face" transactions. Maybe they have inside information.

I also agree with you about working with dog/cat owners, but I'll take you one step further. We need to work on ALL citizens, even those who don't have pets or who don't like snakes. Even my wife, who pretty much hates snakes, thinks these proposed laws are unjust and ridiculous. Bad law is bad for everyone.

Thanks,
Ed

>>I think this is yet another attempt to control a small problem with a vague, open-ended proposal. My assumption is that the people of CA would like to put a stop to cardboard boxes of puppy mill puppies at flea markets, pet store parking lots, etc. I'm behind that, but the lack of specifics makes this bill also put a stop to franchise store sponsored pet adoptions that we all have seen in front of pet stores. Are those my favorite way to find adoptive homes? Absolutely not. Do some decent adoptions happen at these satellite shelters? You bet they do. I'm not thinking that reptile shows are even a consideration in this bill, but a side-effect casualty of poor wording and open ended legislation.
>>
>>When we take on these fights, those of us who love the scaley critters are going to need to find a more PR-friendly partner to fight with. As much as it sucks, reptile people are not going to get the same sort of audience that dog and cat people do. Whenever we can, we need to alert the more warm & fuzzy groups to protest. In this case, I think working with dog and cat rescue groups in CA would be the best option along with corporate entity PetSmart since they draw a lot of foot traffic with their Saturday adoption days.
>>-----
>>Julie
>>www.[url ban]/gfx

My thoughts were that for those who want to fight this bill will want to align themselves with dog and cat rescue groups, not just pet owners.

I don't personally have the time to get into a fight over every piece of proposed legislation nationwide that may have an side-effect impact on my hobbies. Not saying that the fights aren't important, but I've got bills to pay so I have to pick my battles.
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Julie
www.[url ban]/gfx

It's a good thought, Julie, but I think there's one problem. If I'm reading the bill correctly, dog/cat rescues are exempt from
the bill.

Believe me, there are a million things I'd rather be doing (ie, putting a sharp stick in my eye, falling into a vat of rotten eggs) than worrying about all this anti-pet ownership stuff.

Thanks,
Ed

>>My thoughts were that for those who want to fight this bill will want to align themselves with dog and cat rescue groups, not just pet owners.
>>
>>I don't personally have the time to get into a fight over every piece of proposed legislation nationwide that may have an side-effect impact on my hobbies. Not saying that the fights aren't important, but I've got bills to pay so I have to pick my battles.
>>-----
>>Julie
>>www.[url ban]/gfx

I don't see how this legislation affects reptile shows. The coordinators apply for permits and they are held (and hold vendors) to high standards.

This legislation applies to people who are at events that do not center around reptiles (or any other animal). The people selling animals at these events are hoping to make sales based on impulse buys.

Normally, I think that less legislation is better than more. but I don't have a problem with this bill. It would prohibit the sale of things like red-eared sliders at flea markets.

The days of reptile shows don't have to be numbered if the reptile community can continue to keep, breed and sell these animals in a responsible manner.
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Mike Lockwood
www.tooscaley.com

Carefull Mike, this legislation as worded could make it illegal to meet a prospective buyer at a neutral public location to sell a reptile. Also to meet a rodent supplier, even at a pet store parking lot, to pick up a batch of live feeders.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

A recent email points out the definition of "swap meet" umder the Business and Professions Code makes it clear that the term "swap meet" and "flea market" are interchangeable and applies to both "outdoor" and "indoor" events whether or not the event is "inside a building or outside in the open."
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Dave,

Thanks for posting this, this bridges the disconnect between
the bill (which makes it appear that the events are
outdoors only) and USARK's message. Very sneaky, but what else
would we expect from HSUS.

Thanks,
Ed

>>A recent email points out the definition of "swap meet" umder the Business and Professions Code makes it clear that the term "swap meet" and "flea market" are interchangeable and applies to both "outdoor" and "indoor" events whether or not the event is "inside a building or outside in the open."
>>-----
>>Thanks,
>>
>>
>>Dave Colling
>>
>>www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com
>>
>>
>>
>>0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
>>0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)
>>
>>LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
>>26.49 BRB
>>20.21 BCI
>>And those are only the breeders
>>
>>lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

I don't know, this could be a sneaky backdoor attempt at shutting down the reptile business. But I just don't think that it is.

Whether a flea market is indoor or outdoors, it is a market place where vendors come together to sell an variety of goods. It's not the same as a sanctiones reptile show that has been set up for the express purpose of showcasing specific animals. I don't see that reptile shows can be considered a flea market.

I know this isn't popular opinion but I'm just not going to get up in arms over this bill. Let's continue to keep and breed our animals responsibly. Let's keep our noses clean and we won't have problems.
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Mike Lockwood
www.tooscaley.com

Hi Mike,

I hope you're correct, but I don't think you are. The forces
behind most of these bills (HSUS, Defenders of Wildlife, etc.) want to shut down the reptile trade. That is very clear. And they are not honest. Just look at this California bill. At best it was worded vaguely; at worst, it is intentionally misleading.

Also, the "scientists" from the Dept. of Interior have already classified boa constrictors and ball pythons as "dangerous" and/or "invasive" species. So there's no reason to think your rainbow boas and GTP's won't be classified the same. That's why HR669 was such a horrible bill.

Thanks,
Ed

>>I don't see how this legislation affects reptile shows. The coordinators apply for permits and they are held (and hold vendors) to high standards.
>>
>>This legislation applies to people who are at events that do not center around reptiles (or any other animal). The people selling animals at these events are hoping to make sales based on impulse buys.
>>
>>Normally, I think that less legislation is better than more. but I don't have a problem with this bill. It would prohibit the sale of things like red-eared sliders at flea markets.
>>
>>The days of reptile shows don't have to be numbered if the reptile community can continue to keep, breed and sell these animals in a responsible manner.
>>-----
>>Mike Lockwood
>>www.tooscaley.com

Just out of curiosity I e-mailed Ted Lieu, the author of this bill. I asked him if this bill would apply to indoor venues like Anaheim and Sacramento. He has not returned my e-mail yet. I am guessing that he has a team of interns intensely researching my question. Perhaps if some of the other California folks asked the same question, we would get a response.
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Mike Lockwood
www.tooscaley.com

So... why?
Really what would be the incentive behind shutting down the reptile industry?
You guys pay your taxes right?

The US gov't isn't necessarily the "bad guy". Mostly they're just concerned with how to get money. It's not in their economical interest to shut down the herp industry. And on a practical level, they aren't gonna do anything to screw with economy these days. They know that means their jobs.

Let's just all write our congress persons and calmly, rationally voice our objections.
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1.1.0 beardies
1.0.0 bloodred corn
0.1.0 striped anery corn
0.1.0 the cutest lil BRB ever- courtesy of Dave!
0.1.0 leopard gecko
0.1.0 golden gecko
0.2.0 mourning geckos
1.1.0 cats