Reptile & Amphibian Forums

"Will you still need me,Will you still feed me, When I lay 64 eggs."............A wild captured M.e.phayrei, forteen year captive.64 eggs 5-5-09. It takes "64" days to hatch! Vic

Wow, Vic! That is an incredible number of eggs. How big is the female (in both SCL and weight)? I am curious. Did you ever weigh the clutches of eggs to see what % of the female's weight she produces in eggs?

Anyway, congrats on all your hard work with a great species.

Bill Zovickian

Bill ,Thanks.I can figure that from notes on egg weight.In fact I figure everything by weight vs.size. "It's all math" said W. Auffenberg in a talk to our Herp Society many years ago.I remember kind of saying under my breath"damn math,first Latin now Math.As time went on I found myself keeping all kinds of numbers,temp,egg ct./weight,age,etc.As time passed it was very intresting and helpful.Like this year my biggest and oldest and most profific phayrei laid less eggs than last year.(61- 50) So there it is, a warning something is up.I'm talking to a person in Borneo that says his lay 2-3 clutches per year.This is not published anywere! Always something new.Vic

Vic,I know yours nested early this year. Are you keeping any climatic records like daily temp and precipitation? With global warming it would be interesting to see if a trend developes with earlier laying and smaller clutches.
Charlie

It seems to be a wet/dry season more so than temps.They layed in much cooler temps.than other years.I do not make rain/sprinklers during the mounts it is dry naturaly.I go by Thailand weather as a model.Someone could track numbers on a daily basis,and we need "good" science,but I'm having to much fun to be that regimented!On globel warming one could argue that higher temps.even one or two degrees could result in tortoises and other reptiles to have only females and then they would die out over time from no breeding..........but who is to say they would not become parthenogenic as other reptiles have evolved under environmental pressures.Manouria are older than "old world animals" The amount of time from the Industrial Revalution to current times and beyound would be but a hick-up in their strategy for survival.Vic

how far back do they go??

According to Pritchard's Ency. of turtles p311 Manouria are the most primitive living tortoises."very close to the ancestral Eocene stem." I think that would be around 30,000,000. Auffenberg suggest they are not separable from "Hudrianus"(which is older than old dirt).What is intresting to me is,their nesting is more like Crocks or Gators than other tortoises with the construction of an above ground nest and nest protection.We know they go back about that far also.Vic

My buddy Vic said:

It seems to be a wet/dry season more so than temps.They laid in much cooler temps.than other years.I do not make rain/sprinklers during the mounts it is dry naturally.I go by Thailand weather as a model.Someone could track numbers on a daily basis,and we need "good" science,but I'm having to much fun to be that regimented! On global warming one could argue that higher temps, even one or two degrees could result in tortoises and other reptiles to have only females and then they would die out over time from no breeding..........but who is to say they would not become parthenogenic as other reptiles have evolved under environmental pressures.

Assuming global warming is not a hoax (perhaps the greatest perpetrated on mankind), Manouria (and most other ESD species) will be fine. They will simply find appropriate nesting temps in another location within their home range.

Common sense tells us they have access to all kinds of temperatures in the home range from quite a bit cooler than average to full direct tropical sun hot. We know the female is selective about the nesting locations. So she simply continues to be selective and selects another location to nest. No change or evolution required.

To make sure everyone understands, true science is very clear that in the last 30,000,000 years the earth has many times warmed and cooled to quite different averages than we have now. Manouria are still here. Like most species, they are resilient and not likely to have a problem despite what Al Gore would want you to to believe is true.

Vic, I know you did not start the global warming discussion, please do not take this part of my post personal.
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AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

No offence taken.I didnt want to start a G.W.debate but I did intend to "tweek" it a bit.People do assume that all herpers agree with the G.W.issue.If its someone I know and like I'm not offended as was the case here.In a debate on the subject I object and am very offended by anything regurged from Algor's politcal visions of the self anointed Earth police. And by the way you have to say "Climate Change" now. As far as Manouria servival,its going to die out from a warming soup pot,not Man made weather condishions! See ya in Daytona. Vic..................pic caption.....NO SOUP FOR YOU.

Bill, In several females of varying weights it turns out to be close to 1 egg per pound.My F1 female had her first clutch at 40 lbs and had 38 eggs.The one that just laid weighed around 65 lbs.Others have paned out about the same.I'm betting my breeder who laided less this year has lost some weight.I'll let you know on that one.Vic

Interesting, Vic. A healthy female Radiated might also produce one egg per pound of her weight in a given year, but would do so in multiple clutches of about 5-7 eggs each.

Man, I would still love to see your torts sometime. We are considering buying property in Ocala. Will be coming thru your area several times a year. Hope to meet you there or at Daytona!

Carole
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www.reptilecare.com

Oh yea,be there or be square! I'll be at the Daytona show.Or make plans to visit. Remind me to put up the dog. Vic