Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I got a question. I see these sites that have these high priced Pythons around 3 to 4 grand and I look at mine that I bought from Petco for $80 bucks. Is there a difference? I see some with some bad ass colors and I could understand those. Then I see some that dont look as good as mine for crazy prices.

Yours is a normal! The ones you see, are either "hets" or are subtle morphs (Yellow Belly etc.) which produce "crazy" things when bred to each other or other morphs!

Those "crazy colors" are exactly why they cost that much. Those are morphs, and sometimes you have a 1 in 16 chance, OR LESS, of producing one of those snakes. Some morphs are only one gene, like Pastels which have pretty yellow on their sides. But some morphs are combinations of multiple genes. Like a Super Pastel/Pinstipe/Piebald.

Generally morphs that are created with dominant or codominant genes are not as expensive as recessive gene morphs because they are easier to produce.

All in all it is the same concept as charging someone $1000 per puppy for an AKC certified Great Dane or something. Make sense?
-----
1.1 ball pythons
1.1 kingsnakes
0.1 crazy cat
?.? ASFs
1.0 husband

It makes sense now. They do look hella nice, im going to have to wait to get that kind of money. Thanks guys , I really didnt think it was like that with snakes also. Im really new to this and I am very interested in snakes and always have been. Finally got one now that im older and got my own place.

If you are interested in the different morphs, their appearances and prices, I would recommend perusing some of the breeder's websites. NERD, Roussis, and other breeders have their banners above these posts on the main page. Check them out.

The Snake Keeper has a great page displaying many of the different BP morphs.
-----
1.1 ball pythons
1.1 kingsnakes
0.1 crazy cat
?.? ASFs
1.0 husband

people that buy $8 African balls from PetCo.....
when they can buy American made for $20 probably.....

......there is a difference...look again ..

good luck
-----
......4
......25 / 2
...........................

.

your telling the general public that has one snake that they paid 80 dollars for that they can get them for 20 dollars? I do not understand why you want to cut your own throat? And you wonder why the prices have dropped so much? ..... huh, well lets see should we be posting wholesale prices to the general public? No we should not, or at least IMHO! I believe that wholesale is for retailers NOT the customers (correct me if I'm wrong) people see these adds for 8 and 9 dollar balls from the wild and think wow I'm not going to pay 79 or 80 dollars because I can get a snake for 8 or 9 bucks! so now we are taking all this time to breed nice high quality animals and the snakes are being De-valued because the customers see the prices we pay? (even though they cant buy one for that price) but then again lets make pastels and spiders 100 dollars next season! just some food for thought.
-----
1.0 Sunrise (sshhh)
1.0 Yellow Belly
1.0 Het pied
1.0 Green Hypo
1.0 Spider Het B Hypo
0.1 Green Hypo
0.5 Het nerd Orange Hypo
0.2 poss Het nerd Orange Hypo
0.1 poss Het albino
0.1 het pied
0.1 Bell Jungle
0.6 Breeder normals
0.1 black pastel (unproven)
0.1 Tiger ball (unproven)
0.1 genetic reduced pattern
0.1 mojave (best looking one ever! thanks Jeff Luman)
0.1 Pastel Het ghost
0.1 BCI 8ft
1.0 snow corn
0.1 albino Het snow corn
0.1 amel corn
0.1 amel corn
0.1 ghost motley corn
0.1 blue tail monitor
2.0 Reed frogs
2.2 felines aka boa food ;o
And I am not gonna count all those rats . . .

Support our hobby and business

Brian
Contact us

.....offers for captive balls...$8.....yep......
didn't take it....I would freeze them first
so wholesale would be less than the 20?............
and that was last years pastel and spider prices....
so...........

....don't blame me....they go to shows and see them on other people's tables and ....the rest is history.......down down down..........

......I'd take more for normals...and hets...and morphs......won't happen .........

yet the same people buy normal wild crap for 25 to 35 at the same shows.....??? see it every time...

...

.........
-----
......4
......25 / 2
...........................

.

I was not meaning to make it sound like I was taking it out on you, my bad. More so on king snake and the fact that they let wholesalers post their ads on here which de values our snakes. Sorry buddy.
-----
1.0 Sunrise (sshhh)
1.0 Yellow Belly
1.0 Het pied
1.0 Green Hypo
1.0 Spider Het B Hypo
0.1 Green Hypo
0.5 Het nerd Orange Hypo
0.2 poss Het nerd Orange Hypo
0.1 poss Het albino
0.1 het pied
0.1 Bell Jungle
0.6 Breeder normals
0.1 black pastel (unproven)
0.1 Tiger ball (unproven)
0.1 genetic reduced pattern
0.1 mojave (best looking one ever! thanks Jeff Luman)
0.1 Pastel Het ghost
0.1 BCI 8ft
1.0 snow corn
0.1 albino Het snow corn
0.1 amel corn
0.1 amel corn
0.1 ghost motley corn
0.1 blue tail monitor
2.0 Reed frogs
2.2 felines aka boa food ;o
And I am not gonna count all those rats . . .

Support our hobby and business

Brian
Contact us

I don't take anything on here to heart...I really don't care anymore about alot of things.....work..work work...

anyways....balls...yes they offered me $8 for captive PA balls...Yes I sell to anyone who wants them....usually the middle man....for small stores, and the World's Largest Pet Store is 6 miles from me so....

pastels ,spiders,albinos,ghosts....all are dooooown so low I hate to breed them......but I breed all I got and try and make myself what I want along with it...I keep the good stuff and sell the rest.....someday all I will have is double triple etc etc morphs...and I might just get $25 a baby like the old days.....HA.....for triples....

......and balls will then pretty much leave my home ...(not all)...

.....
-----
......4
......25 / 2
...........................

.

I think the falling prices have a lot more factors than somebody saying what the "wholesale" prices are. If you look on craigslist you can get a lot of common pets for cheap, I got my first leopard gecko free on there and I saw an adult male pastel for $100 today. As far as the prices of the morphs go first you have got a declining economy with way less demand for luxury items to start, then you have a market that was started 2 or 3 years ago when things were still good and people bought all the pastels and spiders etc. so they could jump in and make money or whatever (I know the ball market has been around a while I just mean a lot of the babies for sale today) now the market is flooded and nobody is wanting to let go of a dollar and all these people are price battling to make some of their money back or are getting out all together. Honestly the only reason I really wanted to get into breeding ball pythons was because I thought the genetics were cool and I wanted to try to make something new that I thought would be cool and to make the morphs that I liked. In my opinion if you are trying to do this to support your family, unless you got started in the beginning and already have a really extensive breeding colony its going to be more of a hobby and you can't get mad about prices falling when you are selling things to people who are going to be your competition in a couple years thats the nature of the business. The more supply the less the cost.

Honestly the only reason I really wanted to get into breeding ball pythons was because I thought the genetics were cool and I wanted to try to make something new that I thought would be cool and to make the morphs that I liked.

You are exactly right from my point of view. I breed for the same reason - personal enjoyment. Personally, I like low prices. Why would I wat to pay alot to make something for myself? This is what some people on here cannot grasp... that not everyone here is breeding to make money....? I dont care if I pay $500 today and the same morph is $25 by the time I breed it. I dont care. If I make some rat & substrate money back I am happy, or I will give them away.

I like low prices and I have just as much right to post here as everyone else...

I have been in the breeding game for close to 15 years. I had one of the first Retic's in Fl. I paid almost 8k for an albino burm. I bought my first pair of pieds from Mike W. for 13k...Then lost everything during a divorce.
I dont mind the low prices, I think they help kids get into something exciting, without pricing them into "petstore" snakes. I have seen and heard alot from people complaining that this is to low thats to low ect.... Its going to happen no matter what you, or I do. There will always be somebody out there, that never wanted to breed snakes out of greed instead of passion. Someone who just wants to make a quick buck then be gone.
The real people/breeders, we all know them and have even conducted some type of business with them, they are the ones that are going to keep this industry going. I am sad to see tom crutchfield getting out, yet the quality he brought to the table, sets up for everybody trying to make a quality animal, not a fast buck.
I am sure I will upset a few readers, it is not my intention. I will also be typing what oters have thought.
let us all remember the first snake we ever caught, bought, or saw, remind us of what got us here in the first place.
I never started this thinking I would get a new porsche out of this.....and I didn't, but I still do it, for love not money.

I love that pastels and spiders are coming down, because the future breeders need to get a start somewhere other than the mass import WC stores. So for the 10k per snake sellers, and to the guy trying to sell that last pastel, so his wife stops complaining. AS long at WE made it.....who cares. The big box stores didn't profit!

Yes some co-dom prices are dropping but it you want a triple recessive snake your gonna have to pay some bucks, or spend 7 to 10 years makeing you own .

I understand that, and am completely ok with it. The issue is there are people complaining about the basic co-doms dropping. I guess if those prices falling upset them....they need to move to another morph that is less likely to drop, instead of complain.

I paid 1800. for my first breedable size male spider and 1000. for a pair of yearling stunning pastels a year later their half that. But now I have bees and next year killer bees and next year calico killer-bees and so own with about 10 different morphs.Yea I made some money but not a profit. I sink everything I make back into new morphs. Its truly an addiction, and for the time being, a "legal one." Hatch time is like Christmas for 3 months. I love it!! And I will keep moving forward and never looking back. Mark Sisco

I just paid the same price for an amel Korean rat as I will get for an amel ball.....

.....think about it......

you can make money on alot of stuff....balls just drop faster...due to the volume....and the dreams....LOL

....
-----
......4
......25 / 2
...........................

.

I just paid $500 for a snake. I wish I coulda got it for $50, but the breeder had a nice animal that was worth the money to me. I am glad he made the money from me and I hope he sells another 1000 snakes of all different varieties for that much or more. It is very, very simple in the end. If you want to make money selling snakes, lava lamps, garbage bags or Gulf Stream Jets, you need to have a good business sense & a good business model, work hard and value the customer above all else. Very, very simple. Not easy, but simple.

and internet.....

......
-----
......4
......25 / 2
...........................

.

>>and internet.....
>>
>>......
>>-----
>>......4
>>......25 / 2
>>...........................
>>
>>.

Why is it that you do not ship?..At least i think i recall that you said such once or twice before anyway...and i'm curious.
-----
Charles Glaspie
http://www.myspace.com/coldthumb

someone remembers sumpin

odd in here...LOL

I do not ship

due to people being crap....not all but it only takes one...

they get snake and say it died....(it didn't)

they get snake and say it's not the correct sex(their little brother knows this he learened from the internet)..LOL

people email you 50000000043261374846363848 times and then change their minds.....

people email AND call more than this, and send money ,,,then change their mind.....

people suck...(sorry,you aren't included, I don't know you yet)...

.....snakes hate to be taken to shows (mine) and might stop eating with the 1 hr drive to and 1 hour drive from the show I do...so IF I ship and it is thrown 2723647439378374 times around a depot ,shipping station, and truck by FedEx (etc ) employees...it may not want to eat .001 seconds after the person recieves t and they will call and cry 48575758959696 times right away.....

.you get my point????

I really need to ship....I do ship TO me, in fact I will get a package next week probably....guy didn't email me yet....and I have no troubles doing this....I think they use FedEx....I used DHL one time years ago....shipped to Mike H in around Chicago...all well...........

........Good Luck........!...so far I got just 150 eggs???....didn't count....maybe 200....(just 4 bals laid)...

..
-----
......4
......25 / 2
...........................

.

.....IF you pay ALOT for morphs and they drop ALOT...
you actually won't make enough to buy snake or mouse food...etc
my friends buy snake food and lose money every year....

as for PASSION ......LOL......passion is 6 snakes , all different.....

work is 150 snakes and 500 babies a year that you cannot (almost) give away....(the world today)

.and passion....wanna know what I got this year so far????

.....real money makers...LOL......

one yellow belly racer,wild caught,cool snake...
a bunch of Korean ratsnakes.......

......really hot stuff...HAAAAA!.....

got them , because I liked them....

......OH...forgot....I got 5 more red milks....babies are sooo easy to start being they are what ...? ..5 inches at hatching?....LOL...I needed more workload........!...

......
-----
......4
......25 / 2
...........................

.

I wish I could get 100 bucks for an average pastel male. The truth of the matter is that male codoms are comming down to where they need to be. Why is that, because the people that are the breeders (read that to mean investors) have the morphs already in their collections and now are being sold as pets. They are not rare no matter how much we want them to be. Yes the prettier ones will sell for more than the average animal but that's how pet markets work. My most expensive pastel I sold last season was a male and I got $350 for him because he was screaming and not your average pastel and that is why us small breeders or hobbyists should be doing selective breeding. Let the giant 1000 clutch a year guys mass produce average looking animals, if you still produce grade A animals, you will sell them for more than the giant guys.
-----
Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, an amel tiger retic female, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

Right on Brian! You put it into perfect words! I would love to e mail back and forth about this.

Go to my site and email me.. If you want

www.freewebs.com/kyleherp/

As a small time breeder, I would love to be able to get $20 for a normal male. Chondro, you are OVERREACTING bigtime. The reason for $50 Pastel males is the sheer number of people breeding Pastels. The fact that those who can afford it, buy a Pastel cross male now, so regular Pastel males are not that sought after anymore.

Relax....breathe out........breathe in....it is only Balls man, it ain't curing disease.

Dave

I hate to tell you this but certain large suppliers of Pet Stores are mass producing some morphs including Pastels and Spiders and this year will likely be $75 at the major Pet Stores. One supplier alone will produce over 1,000 clutches this year of only a few morphs for Pet Store sales....thanks
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Nothing wrong with that and in fact can only be positive in that pet stores selling base morphs i.e. pastels ans spiders to a brand new base of customers who in turn will catch the regius bug and start purchasing higher end animals.

Base morphs hiting the pet trade is a good thing

>>Nothing wrong with that and in fact can only be positive in that pet stores selling base morphs i.e. pastels ans spiders to a brand new base of customers who in turn will catch the regius bug and start purchasing higher end animals.
>>
>>Base morphs hiting the pet trade is a good thing

I am not a fan of spiders being sold in petstores due to their issues. I think it will lead to a lot of snakes that end up being put down by vets that don't know about the spinning problem.
-----
John Vandegrift

What is " the spinning problem"?

Spiders, to some degree or another, are "tweaked". Some are so mild that you never even notice it. Others show varying degrees of head wobbling, corckscrewing their necks, and other odd behaviors that aren't typically seen in snakes. The majority of the time it doesn't effect the snake any, as a large portion of spiders eat, grow, and breed very well. If you aren't aware that the issue exists, however, you might be inclined to think your snake is "broken", and, as someone already mentioned, a non informed vet might put that animal down.

It should also be mentioned that, occasionally, other ball pythons will "spin" as well, it is just very prevelant in spiders.

Actually you're absolutely right. It will create a completely new customer base...thanks
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

From a strictly financial standpoint -- pastels are already $75 or cheaper for males you can pick up females for $100ish - spiders and the rest of the co-doms aren't that far behind. Co-doms get massed produced out of their value by every Tom Dick and Harry in the business -- that is how the ball world seems to work -- at this point them being massed produced for pet stores isn't going to make that big of a difference for many of the base morphs -- the ball world has pretty much moved on leaving them in the dust -- it's all about combos now. Doesn't mean I like it or I like where it is going but I recognize it as a reality.
-----
Tosha
JET Pythons
Toshas Blog

Herp Medicine does not equal a bottle of Baytril - Dr. Scott Stahl

What a lot of herpers particularly ones who have only been in it for a short time [10 years or less] don't realize is that it's always worked like a pyramid. As herps get cheaper the customer base gets larger. It's a healthy and normal response based on supply and demand. Nothing to be alarmed about as long as EVERYONE has the same oppurtunity to sell their offspring. Some of us just do it better than others....Thanks
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

You and I can both relate to the "next" great animal. Almost ANY new animal to the market carries a high price tag. Everyone get's into it and the price drops. Then some (most) move onto the next thing and prices slowly come back up. Maybe not to the original price but above the rock bottom prices. Here are a few examples that I can think of. I may be off on the exact amount's but they are within the ball park. There are three prices based on an APPROXIMATE AVERAGE asking price. First when they "hit" the market, second when they bottomed out and third is current prices. We all know that someone is selling them for more or less some where and these prices are just an approximate example that I can roughly remember from 30 years in the business.
Albino Boas $20,000.00-$750.00-$750.00
Albino Burmese $5,000.00-$120.00-$250.00
Albino Leopard Gecko $2,500.00-$25.00-$75.00
Amel Corn Snake $750.00-$25.00-$60.00
Amel Cal King $800.00-$20.00-$60.00
Green Iguana $50.00-$5.00-$40.00
Veiled Chameleons $600.00-$25.00-$75.00
All i'm saying is that as a reptile become's more popular the price will drop until something else comes along and then prices seem to go back up a little because there are less people out there breeding & supplying the demand that is still there for them. There will always be new comers into this hobby just as well as some of you that are currently young in this hobby will be considered old timers.
Bruce Delles c/o Twin Cities Reptiles
OVER 30 YEARS IN BUSINESS AS A RETAIL PET SHOP

Hi Bruce, Geeze how many next great animals have I had first? Too many to count and you are 110% correct. Look forward to seeing you in Daytona.....Thanks
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

By the way YOUR NOT AN OLD TIMER ARE YOU? Here's my next first great animal that I'll unviel in Daytona...lol

-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

No i'm not an old timer, just a little older..LOL See you in a few months. Either at daytona or at our herp meeting here in mn.
Take Care
Bruce

Yup forgot about that. Have someone send me a 30 day reminder that I'm coming up to do the talk. See you then and I've been promised I'm not going to freeze. After all I only have one pair of long pants....lol
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Sounds like someone adjusted their business model to take advantage of an opportunity selling volume, mid-level morphs to the big pet suppliers. To me that sounds like someone with good business sense, and instead of crying in their soup that co-doms dropped another 5%, they did a little lateral thinking and they are gonna make some cash. Good for them.

I think we would have seen pastels already in the petsmarts and petco's if this were the case. How is a employee of petsmart going to explain a head wobble on a spider four months after they sell it.

GOOD LUCK FINDING THIS AT PETCO....

BILL

If you like yours, it's good enough. It's a matter of opinion. I've seen some morphs I think are butt ugly (cough-paradox anything-cough) and some I think are absolutely awesome.
It's all preference. If you want to pay the money for a snake you want, do it. If not, don't.
Or make it.
It's twice the fun. I want a bumblebee...and in two years I'll have one. (Hopefully)...along with some pewters as well.
-----
"What is man without the beasts?
If all the beasts were gone,
men would die from great loneliness of spirit.
For what happens to the beasts,
soon happens to men.
All things are connected."

-Chief Seattle (Duwamish Tribe)

If I got a normal Female, What do you guys think I should breed her with? What would I need? When is she resdy? Is there a site that will tell me all I need or Is this the site? Point me in the right way fellas! thanks

You should breed her to what you like. If you want to produce morphs with the first breeding, look for a dominant or codmiant morph (like pastel, spider, pinstripe, mojave, butter, lesser platinum, enchi, cinnamon, phantom/mystic, etc.) If you don't mind doing a little more work, you can breed her to a simple recessive morph (albino, piebald, ghost, clown, genetic stripe, caramel, etc.), then raise up the offspring (which will appear normal but carry the gene for the recessive mutation) and breed the females back to the father.

A number of the companies that advertise at the top of these forums have extensive galleries detailing various morphs and their genetics, and most any questions you have can be answered on this forum or by some of the better ball python books that are available.

As far as when can you breed your female, females should be in the 1500 gram weight range before they are bred. Occasionally smaller females will breed, but 1500 is like the "magic number". late fall/winter is the time of year when most breeders start pairing their animals up.

No I am not crying about the prices of co doms dropping, not at all my point was baed around the ads from wholesalers that show babies available for 8 and 9 dollars for the customers to see this hurts the value of balls period! They should not be allowed to post those ads on kingsnake they should be on a mailing list to retailers, yes I know that soon petsmart will sell spiders and pastels and oppen up a whole new croud of python addics (good for us!) but not for 100.00 when we are selling our normals for 79.00 we are not going to sell pastels for 100 try 150 and spiders at 225.00 As for a petsmart employee not being able to help a customer with a spider with head wobble . . . .think again most of my employess will school you on genetics and snake morphs all day long, yes that is the job that pays the bills petsmart store manager baby. Im not bitter I love what I do! Its the wholesale to the general public that bothers me. . . . . . Anyway didn't mean to open up this can of worms just needed to vent for a minute lol
-----
1.0 Sunrise (sshhh)
1.0 Yellow Belly
1.0 Het pied
1.0 Green Hypo
1.0 Spider Het B Hypo
0.1 Green Hypo
0.5 Het nerd Orange Hypo
0.2 poss Het nerd Orange Hypo
0.1 poss Het albino
0.1 het pied
0.1 Bell Jungle
0.6 Breeder normals
0.1 black pastel (unproven)
0.1 Tiger ball (unproven)
0.1 genetic reduced pattern
0.1 mojave (best looking one ever! thanks Jeff Luman)
0.1 Pastel Het ghost
0.1 BCI 8ft
1.0 snow corn
0.1 albino Het snow corn
0.1 amel corn
0.1 amel corn
0.1 ghost motley corn
0.1 blue tail monitor
2.0 Reed frogs
2.2 felines aka boa food ;o
And I am not gonna count all those rats . . .

Support our hobby and business

Brian
Contact us