Reptile & Amphibian Forums

If sh** science (that's one step beyond junk science) makes anyone else's blood boil, please consider writing and e-mailing Discovery Communications, Inc. to express your displeasure. Well, before I get ahead of myself, check out the article:

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/04/30/pet-trade-costs.html

Note the disingenuous mentioning of the swine flu (which has nothing to do with the pet trade). And presented as *fact* is that there are 30,000 Burmese pythons in the everglades. And no citations of any sort.

Anyway, for whatever it's worth, I e-mailed the investor relations and the viewer relations departments, and I snail mailed a letter to the CEO indicating that I will not allow myself or my family to watch Discovery Channel, nor will I ever invest money in their company, until they show some scientific integrity by at least presenting an opposing viewpoint. I'll be happy to provide the letter to anyone, just PM me. The letters may or may not make a difference, but certainly several hundred or thousand will have a better chance of getting noticed than 10 or 20.

Anyway, here's the contact information:

investor_relations@discovery.com

http://extweb.discovery.com/viewerrelations

David Zaslav
Discovery Communications, Inc.
1 Discovery Pl
Silver Spring, MD 20910

Thanks!

I will say that I agree with you on this one. I don't know how the rest of you feel but I don't see the swine flu as a big deal anyway. I believe it's similar to any other flu we may contract. Sensationalizing it keeps us fearful (mostly of other cultures). In this case, linking it to the pet trade is pretty sneaky.

Invasive species is a very real concern though. Ed, they should have cited sources. I can't believe the number of burmese in the everglades is as high as 30,000 but they are there and they are reproducing. I also don't believe that the problem started with animals that escaped during hurricanes. Come on now. Honestly, how many of us have met people who buy cute little burms in pet stores only to realize that they can't take care of them once they have a 10 foot animal on their hands? Now don't you think that just a few of those people might be tempted to drive out to their local park (or national wildlife sanctuary) and get rid off their problem nice and quiet-like?

This is what I mean by being responsible keepers, breeders and dealers. We have to try and prevent these behaviors from occurring or else everyone in our hobby will suffer the same reputation.
-----
Mike Lockwood
www.tooscaley.com

Hi Mike,

Glad we agree on at least one thing.

I never made the general statement that invasive species are
not a concern. The problem is that for whatever reason, "non-native" has suddenly become synonymous with "invasive" and/or "dangerous." Sure, Kudzu, Zebra mussels, and sea lampreys are deemed invasive because they OBVIOUSLY harm local wildlife and/or affect human enjoyment/commerce. But these commonly cited (by anti-ownership forces)examples have nothing to do with the pet trade.

Regarding Burmese pythons, there is no sound evidence that these pythons have an overall harmful effect on local wildlife. In fact, I can make a stronger argument that they HELP local wildlife than the argument "scientists" are using to show how harmful they are. I'll expand on this if you want me to.

Regarding the Joe-sixpack releasing his python theory, it doesn't hold water. The Everglades is a remote area, but it's also huge. Pythons released in people's backyards or local parks probably wouldn't even make it there, much less find another Joe-Sixpack released python to mate with. Besides, I doubt someone that irresponsible is going to drive an hour or two to make sure their python gets a safe home in a remote area. Someone that irresponsible probably would have killed the python due to poor husbandry anyway. Then of course there's the timing of it all - ten years after a Hurricane (that destroyed a few breeding facilities) there's a noticable population of pythons. That's just coincidence??? If you don't feel I'm making a good argument, please contact Tom Crutchfield. He lives down there at ground zero, and can probably even tell you which breeding facilities were destroyed by the hurricane.

Of course an occasional idiot lets his snake loose, and I'm not advocating people be irresponsible. But there's no way to prevent that from happening, is there? There will always be idiots who break the rules, no matter how many times we repeat, "people should be responsible."

Anyway, I apologize if I sound abrupt or if I'm droning on and on. All this nonsense is pretty upsetting to me. My dream of expanding my collection (and possibly breeding snakes) as I approach retirement has pretty much been destroyed, since I don't think it will be legal anymore for us to own reptiles.

Thanks!
Ed

>>I will say that I agree with you on this one. I don't know how the rest of you feel but I don't see the swine flu as a big deal anyway. I believe it's similar to any other flu we may contract. Sensationalizing it keeps us fearful (mostly of other cultures). In this case, linking it to the pet trade is pretty sneaky.
>>
>>Invasive species is a very real concern though. Ed, they should have cited sources. I can't believe the number of burmese in the everglades is as high as 30,000 but they are there and they are reproducing. I also don't believe that the problem started with animals that escaped during hurricanes. Come on now. Honestly, how many of us have met people who buy cute little burms in pet stores only to realize that they can't take care of them once they have a 10 foot animal on their hands? Now don't you think that just a few of those people might be tempted to drive out to their local park (or national wildlife sanctuary) and get rid off their problem nice and quiet-like?
>>
>>This is what I mean by being responsible keepers, breeders and dealers. We have to try and prevent these behaviors from occurring or else everyone in our hobby will suffer the same reputation.
>>-----
>>Mike Lockwood
>>www.tooscaley.com

LOL hey ed dont hold back tell us all how you REALLY feel lol
-----
-Stephen-

0.1 soon to be wifey (Babe)
1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer)
1.0 norm corn (Jake)
1.0 col redtail boa (Switch, formally known as Dixie)
0.1 ball python (Bella)
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Torpaz & Saphira)

That was the abridged version.

>>LOL hey ed dont hold back tell us all how you REALLY feel lol
>>-----
>>-Stephen-
>>
>>0.1 soon to be wifey (Babe)
>>1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer)
>>1.0 norm corn (Jake)
>>1.0 col redtail boa (Switch, formally known as Dixie)
>>0.1 ball python (Bella)
>>1.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Torpaz & Saphira)

Ed,
...There is nothing new to all of this. The government and their do-gooder friends in HSUS and PETA and similar idiot groups have been after us for a long time. There was actually a big sting operation back in the 70s that shut down quite a few reptile dealers. Word then was that it would have a lasting effect in shutting down imports of exotic reptiles. All it did was set those dealers back a few years. By the 80s there were again pretty big numbers of exotic reptiles being imported. It seems like every year or two there is another threat that looks like the feds want to shut down the importation and keeping of exotic reptiles and generally they have been uneffective. (though inmportation of many species is now down from the numbers of the past, and this may actually be a good thing) It does get tiresome having to refight the same enemies every couple of years. I have reached the point where I do not get as excited about all this as I used to. I do think that the best thing we can do to protect our rights to keep our snakes is to continue our efforts to educate the public. Every show and tell we do we convert a few more people. Around 12 years ago there was some information going around that the pet industry did a survey and found that one in every forty homes in America had at least one pet reptile. I am sure that there are now lots more people keeping reptile pets. The more of us there are the harder it will be for HSUS and PETA and US Fish and Wildlfe to defeat us.
...I know the numbers of Pythons in the Everglades is nowhere near the rediculous numers that get tossed around. If there really were very many of them there would be snake hunters capturing them in good numbers. AFAIK a few do turn up but there are not enough of them to make them easy enough to find for hunting them to be effective. I think it does not make much difference whether the "Everglades Pythons" came from importer facilities being blown out in hurricanes or from incidental escapes from those facilities or from private owners releasing the animals. The overall result is that it has created a problem that has been blown out of proportion and used effectivley as a propaganda tool by our enemies.
Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for the background. I agree on the education thing. In fact, I was about to PM you about something in that regard. Heads up for an e-mail.

This may not be new, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't continue to fight back in new and creative ways. Writing letters to politicians who have already made up their minds, which is the only strategy I've seen so far, will not work in the long run.

I disagree that the Hurricane Andrew vs. Joe-Sixpack-releasing- his-python issue is irrelevant. The "irresponsible snake owner" propaganda is one of the most powerful pieces of propaganda that the AR wackos are using. Seems like even a large percentage of reptile hobbyists believe it. In fact, the only reason I brought it up was in response to the the post where Mike is blaming irresponsible snake owners for the Everglades python issue.

Thanks,
Ed

>>Ed,
>>...There is nothing new to all of this. The government and their do-gooder friends in HSUS and PETA and similar idiot groups have been after us for a long time. There was actually a big sting operation back in the 70s that shut down quite a few reptile dealers. Word then was that it would have a lasting effect in shutting down imports of exotic reptiles. All it did was set those dealers back a few years. By the 80s there were again pretty big numbers of exotic reptiles being imported. It seems like every year or two there is another threat that looks like the feds want to shut down the importation and keeping of exotic reptiles and generally they have been uneffective. (though inmportation of many species is now down from the numbers of the past, and this may actually be a good thing) It does get tiresome having to refight the same enemies every couple of years. I have reached the point where I do not get as excited about all this as I used to. I do think that the best thing we can do to protect our rights to keep our snakes is to continue our efforts to educate the public. Every show and tell we do we convert a few more people. Around 12 years ago there was some information going around that the pet industry did a survey and found that one in every forty homes in America had at least one pet reptile. I am sure that there are now lots more people keeping reptile pets. The more of us there are the harder it will be for HSUS and PETA and US Fish and Wildlfe to defeat us.
>>...I know the numbers of Pythons in the Everglades is nowhere near the rediculous numers that get tossed around. If there really were very many of them there would be snake hunters capturing them in good numbers. AFAIK a few do turn up but there are not enough of them to make them easy enough to find for hunting them to be effective. I think it does not make much difference whether the "Everglades Pythons" came from importer facilities being blown out in hurricanes or from incidental escapes from those facilities or from private owners releasing the animals. The overall result is that it has created a problem that has been blown out of proportion and used effectivley as a propaganda tool by our enemies.
>>Jeff

There is a really good book out that details the non-native species that are present in Florida. I believe it's published by Kreiger. I have not read it yet.

I have done a little work in the everglades and I can tell you a few things.

1) It's not a very far drive from civilization. If a person were wanting to unload a pet python and they wanted to see it in a comfortable setting, getting it there would not be an inconvenience.

2) Driving home through the glades one night I found a hatchling Burmese on the road. Happy and as healthy as could be. The thing couldn't have been more than a month old or so. If it was there then its siblings were there and its mother was there.

3) Burmese pythons have established a viable breeding population in the everglades. I have talked about this with rangers in the park. They're not uncommon.

I'd be curious to know which facility it was that the snakes escaped from and how far this was from the park. But, I don't know how far these animals are capable of travelling on their own or if they would have the senses to navigate towards the park anyway.
-----
Mike Lockwood
www.tooscaley.com

I'd be curious to know which facility it was that the snakes escaped from and how far this was from the park. But, I don't know how far these animals are capable of travelling on their own or if they would have the senses to navigate towards the park anyway.

There was a famous facility everyone refers to that bordered the park. It was blown to smithereens (I always wanted to write that!) during Andrew and now snakes were recovered.

I have heard reference to a genetic study to show the Everglades burms originated from a very small gene pool. Just as one would expect if they started from a single introduction.

I suspect they would know nothing of where the park is. They would simply gravitate to suitable habitat. That is why they are rarely found anywhere but the 'glades and surrounding habitat. Elsewhere the land is not suitable python habitat.

FWIW "Blown to smithereens" is a proper way to describe the destruction from a hurricane. Low pressure hurricane air outside a building causes the high pressure inside air to expand a literally blowing the doors and windows off a building!
-----
AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

What's the name, since it's famous....
-----
Thanks,

Frank Roberts

dunno. everybody in Florida seems to know. I hear it over and over when visiting. But sadly my feeble California never held the specific info. Sorry.

You mentioned that State of Florida biologist. He'd know. So will Tom Crutchfield when he sees this thread.

Yep. You guessed. I can't remember his name either!

>>What's the name, since it's famous....
>>-----
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Frank Roberts
>>
>>
-----
AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

.
-----
AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

I was in south Florida doing Hurrican Andrew recovery work and I do not remember the name of any specific large reptile facility that was damaged. There was lots of news about animals including reptiles from Miami Metrozoo escaping and also about snakes loose from smaller breeders and dealers south of Miami through the Homestead area and down to Key Largo. One or more of those breeders or dealers may have had large numbers of Burms. I visited Strictly Reptiles while I was in the area and they had no serious storm damage but they are located a little north of Miami. Perhaps a facility called Pet Farm was the big facility most seriously damaged. I visited there during the late 80s and I think they disapppeared from the reptile scene about the time of Hurricane Andrew. I do remember a couple of cases of Burmese and Reticulated Pythons being found in south Florida well before 1992. There have also been a couple breeding populations of Boa Constrictors going in south Florida for a long time. BTW, the most commonly seen reptile in central Florida these days is the introduced Brown Anole. I remember first seeing them in the keys in the 60s and thay have gradually spread northward all the way into south Georgia.

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for the information. More confirmation that Hurricane Andrew caused a lot of escapes. Hurricane happened in 1992.
Population of Everglades pythons dramatically increased (or
was at least noticed) in 1995 or so, and it was determined that
they were breeding.

No doubt occasional big constrictors were found before the hurricane, but was there any evidence of a breeding population of
Burmese pythons? Burmese pythons have been available for many years. For those who still want to believe the "irresponsible python owner" theory, was it just coincidence the breeding population was discovered 3 years after a hurricane which caused localized escapes of breeding pairs of pythons?

Thanks,
Ed

>>I was in south Florida doing Hurrican Andrew recovery work and I do not remember the name of any specific large reptile facility that was damaged. There was lots of news about animals including reptiles from Miami Metrozoo escaping and also about snakes loose from smaller breeders and dealers south of Miami through the Homestead area and down to Key Largo. One or more of those breeders or dealers may have had large numbers of Burms. I visited Strictly Reptiles while I was in the area and they had no serious storm damage but they are located a little north of Miami. Perhaps a facility called Pet Farm was the big facility most seriously damaged. I visited there during the late 80s and I think they disapppeared from the reptile scene about the time of Hurricane Andrew. I do remember a couple of cases of Burmese and Reticulated Pythons being found in south Florida well before 1992. There have also been a couple breeding populations of Boa Constrictors going in south Florida for a long time. BTW, the most commonly seen reptile in central Florida these days is the introduced Brown Anole. I remember first seeing them in the keys in the 60s and thay have gradually spread northward all the way into south Georgia.

Both Mike Powell and Kallam Assad were here during Andrew I believe plus numerous private breeders...thanks
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

The DNA study was done by Florida International University. I was hoping it was going to be more useful, but I'm not sure
how conclusive it is. They did conclude that most/all of the pythons were very closely related, but then seemed to fall short
of saying if that was due to one or two catastrophic local escapes. The left open the possibility is was due to a limited gene pool of all burms in the US, which doesn't rule out the Joe-Sixpack theory. So I'm not sure what the point of the study was??? I still believe all the circumstantial evidence points to the Hurricane theory, though.

Abstract:

http://www.fiu.edu/ugs/announcements/m_d_as_2008_may_9.html

Full article:

http://www.usark.org/uploads/FloridaBurmGenetics.pdf

Thanks,
Ed

>>I'd be curious to know which facility it was that the snakes escaped from and how far this was from the park. But, I don't know how far these animals are capable of travelling on their own or if they would have the senses to navigate towards the park anyway.
>>
>>There was a famous facility everyone refers to that bordered the park. It was blown to smithereens (I always wanted to write that!) during Andrew and now snakes were recovered.
>>
>>I have heard reference to a genetic study to show the Everglades burms originated from a very small gene pool. Just as one would expect if they started from a single introduction.
>>
>>I suspect they would know nothing of where the park is. They would simply gravitate to suitable habitat. That is why they are rarely found anywhere but the 'glades and surrounding habitat. Elsewhere the land is not suitable python habitat.
>>
>>FWIW "Blown to smithereens" is a proper way to describe the destruction from a hurricane. Low pressure hurricane air outside a building causes the high pressure inside air to expand a literally blowing the doors and windows off a building!
>>-----
>>AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

So I'm not sure what the point of the study was??? I still believe all the circumstantial evidence points to the Hurricane theory, though.

The Objectives of this project were to:

• Determine the genetic diversity and population structure of Python molurus bivittatus in ENP, specifically, whether the distribution of genetic diversity suggest that the 4 populations sampled to date are distinct, to be managed separately, or are they likely part of a single large population.

• Determine whether there is genetic evidence for parthenogenetic reproduction in Python molurus bivittatus in ENP

Seems like the goal was met.
-----
AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

Maybe I'm misunderstanding part of the study. It looks to me like they conclude there is in fact is a low genetic difference (ie, all the populations are closely related.) No surprise there, since all the circumstantial evidence points to the Hurricane theory; however, don't the authors also say that this low genetic difference could be because of the limited gene pool of captive bred pythons? If that's the case, what's the point? Was the DNA of captive pythons done for comparison?

Thanks,
Ed

>>So I'm not sure what the point of the study was??? I still believe all the circumstantial evidence points to the Hurricane theory, though.
>>
>>The Objectives of this project were to:
>>
>>• Determine the genetic diversity and population structure of Python molurus bivittatus in ENP, specifically, whether the distribution of genetic diversity suggest that the 4 populations sampled to date are distinct, to be managed separately, or are they likely part of a single large population.
>>
>>• Determine whether there is genetic evidence for parthenogenetic reproduction in Python molurus bivittatus in ENP
>>
>>Seems like the goal was met.
>>-----
>>AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

>>Maybe I'm misunderstanding part of the study. It looks to me like they conclude there is in fact is a low genetic difference (ie, all the populations are closely related.) No surprise there, since all the circumstantial evidence points to the Hurricane theory; however, don't the authors also say that this low genetic difference could be because of the limited gene pool of captive bred pythons? If that's the case, what's the point? Was the DNA of captive pythons done for comparison?

They studied the genetics to see if they had four distinct and genetically different populations. It seems they do not, but that is what they wanted to learn.

Before they blame a limited gene pool in captivity, they should go to bob clarks place and that of others to see how limited the captive gene pool is.

>>
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Ed
>>
>>>>So I'm not sure what the point of the study was??? I still believe all the circumstantial evidence points to the Hurricane theory, though.
>>>>
>>>>The Objectives of this project were to:
>>>>
>>>>• Determine the genetic diversity and population structure of Python molurus bivittatus in ENP, specifically, whether the distribution of genetic diversity suggest that the 4 populations sampled to date are distinct, to be managed separately, or are they likely part of a single large population.
>>>>
>>>>• Determine whether there is genetic evidence for parthenogenetic reproduction in Python molurus bivittatus in ENP
>>>>
>>>>Seems like the goal was met.
>>>>-----
>>>>AMAZON REPTILE CENTER
-----
AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

>>They studied the genetics to see if they had four distinct and >>genetically different populations. It seems they do not, but >>that is what they wanted to learn.

Yes, I understand this. What's unclear to me is why.

>>The significance is if they had four gentically distinct >>populations, then perhaps different management needs would be >>found for each.

Not sure what this means. If there were a little more genetic variation, what type of management would need to be adjusted?

>>Before they blame a limited gene pool in captivity, they >>should go to bob clarks place and that of others to see how >>limited the captive gene pool is.

Yes, that is my point.

Since Burmese Pythons have been imported by the hundreds of thousands before Hurricane Andrew and it was post Andrew a breeding population was discovered it makes common sense to believe the hurricane caused it.
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Mike,

Burmese Pythons are quite prolific and in he proper habitat could prosper quite easily, due to their environmental needs the dispersal rate would not be high and could colonies in a short period of time, it would not take too many pythons to create a sustainable population, it most likely is a mixture of both purposely released pythons and "acts of god "
-----
Thanks,

Frank Roberts

There are many species of non indigenous wildlife in this particular area from what I understand....cobras as well....
-----
Thanks,

Frank Roberts

To date there are NO VENOMOUS populations of exotic species present that we know of....
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Thanks Tom, someone told me a few cobras where captured there, even if that where so that does not spell a sustainable population. Good point!!
-----
Thanks,

Frank Roberts

Several types of venomous snakes escaped from a man who had his permit canceled by Fl Fish and Game. All were captured and he has left Fl hopefully forever. This guy has always been a problem wherever he lives and always will be. He shouldn't even have a drivers liscense much less a venomous permit....I won't give a name but he wears a wig that looks like a tarantula shed....
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Hi Frank,

I'm not saying no one has ever stupidly released a python, but I've seen zero evidence to support the idea that intentional release caused the breeding populations. Yes, they are prolific, but in the wild there are plenty of predators that could wipe out entire clutches of eggs and/or eat young pythons.

On a related note, one interesting fact that our beloved government scientists forget to mention is that feral cats (a VERY destructive "invasive" species) were found in the stomachs of many of the captured pythons. Instead they just HAND PICKED 5 or 6 (out of how many hundreds?) that had a particular species or two in their stomachs, and then declared "PYTHONS ARE WIPING OUT THE LOCAL WILDLIFE IN THE EVERGLADES!!! PANIC! PANIC!"

I wish I could say whatever I wanted, no matter how stupid, to maintain job security.

Thanks,
Ed

>>Mike,
>>
>>Burmese Pythons are quite prolific and in he proper habitat could prosper quite easily, due to their environmental needs the dispersal rate would not be high and could colonies in a short period of time, it would not take too many pythons to create a sustainable population, it most likely is a mixture of both purposely released pythons and "acts of god "
>>-----
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Frank Roberts
>>
>>

"I'm not saying no one has ever stupidly released a python, but I've seen zero evidence to support the idea that intentional release caused the breeding populations."

Hey Ed,
I'm not sure what evidence would be out there to support the idea of intentional releases outside of surveillance footage of 'joe-six pack' popping open the trunk of his Dodge Dart and dragging out his unwanted burm. To dismiss intentional releases as a major cause of the problem because of lack of evidence (this really would be difficult to come by versus a blown out facility from a hurricane, easy to hang our hats on that) is somewhat self-serving (in this case supporting your argument).
We also need to lose the 'joe-six pack' image of an intentional releaser. More realistically it is the haggard husband whose kids nagged him into getting the 'cute-little snake' and two years latter whose wife is looking at him with that look only us married folk know and she's saying; "JUST-GET-RID-OF-IT". This is the person driving the very short distance and dropping off the snake.
Me, I have no idea of what caused the problem and the extent of it. But it is a problem like many other invasive species. Don't know the answer. However, I'm starting to not want to read your post anymore because of the constant reference to 'government scientists'. Though I'm just a tech, it bothers me. The shame is, you write intelligently and have a lot of good things to share. I and everyone else knows your feelings about the government scientists and the junk data they put out (I hope you think its just occasionally). I get it. For me I'll enjoy and envy your Indigo posts but I think I'll skip these threads from here on out.
Paul

Paul,

I couldn't care less if you read my posts or not. I'm posting all this for a reason, and if I say something stupid, that comes along with the cause. I've already provided evidence to support the hurricane release theory, along with friggin' common sense to back it up.

For anyone interested, some good articles on the subject
can be foun at:

http://www.vpi.com/publications

So Paul, what have YOU done to fight the JUNK, GARBAGE science being spewed by the *corrupt* government scientists? This is not a trivial thing, it's an egregious abuse of power by someone entrusted by "we the people." I will not apologize for trying to spread the word on corrupt government scientists who publish nonsense to cause mass hysteria to an unaware public. I will not
apologize for attacking CORRUPT GOVERNMENT SCIENTISTS claiming Burmese Pythons can establish wild populations in Delaware.
What have you done, Paul? You are a scientist. Above all others, you should be leading the charge against garbage science.
If you've done nothing, then you are part of the problem, and you will be partly responsible when the government outlaws your rainbow boas and the rest of our pets.

Thanks,
Ed

>>"I'm not saying no one has ever stupidly released a python, but I've seen zero evidence to support the idea that intentional release caused the breeding populations."
>>
>>Hey Ed,
>>I'm not sure what evidence would be out there to support the idea of intentional releases outside of surveillance footage of 'joe-six pack' popping open the trunk of his Dodge Dart and dragging out his unwanted burm. To dismiss intentional releases as a major cause of the problem because of lack of evidence (this really would be difficult to come by versus a blown out facility from a hurricane, easy to hang our hats on that) is somewhat self-serving (in this case supporting your argument).
>>We also need to lose the 'joe-six pack' image of an intentional releaser. More realistically it is the haggard husband whose kids nagged him into getting the 'cute-little snake' and two years latter whose wife is looking at him with that look only us married folk know and she's saying; "JUST-GET-RID-OF-IT". This is the person driving the very short distance and dropping off the snake.
>>Me, I have no idea of what caused the problem and the extent of it. But it is a problem like many other invasive species. Don't know the answer. However, I'm starting to not want to read your post anymore because of the constant reference to 'government scientists'. Though I'm just a tech, it bothers me. The shame is, you write intelligently and have a lot of good things to share. I and everyone else knows your feelings about the government scientists and the junk data they put out (I hope you think its just occasionally). I get it. For me I'll enjoy and envy your Indigo posts but I think I'll skip these threads from here on out.
>>Paul

Ed,
I really did'nt think you'd care one way or another if I read your posts or not. What I wanted you to think about is that you start becoming less credible when you state absolutes. When it comes to this subject your less credible because of your seemingly inflexible stance and absolute phrasings like government scientists. I may have missed some but the above post you wrote in response to my OT was the first time that you stated not all gov scientist are junk peddlers (my phrasing there, poetic license). I've learned you can reach the broadest audience by being reasonable. That is what I think you should care about.
What have I done? I've spent the last 20 years and 8 months (hey, only 9 yrs 4 months til retirement, you'll be supporting me if you like it or not!) collecting the best data I could. I've represented my agency and government with integrity and pride. Silly as it sounds now, I was so proud to sign on with the USGS. I'm still proud at 47 years old. When your tax dollars go to me be assured its money well spent. Seriously.
So thats what I've done. Lived it for 20 plus years. Come out in the field with me and I'm willing to bet you'd have a new appreciation for the USGS and at least some of your government servants.
Maybe I should sit down more often on my butt and fire off some incendiary emails; that seems to be the modern day radical now. Naw, I'll just keep doing what I'm doing. Pillow feels soft at night.
Thanks for reading,
Paul

I couldn't care less if you read my posts or not. I'm posting all this for a reason, and if I say something stupid, that comes along with the cause. I've already provided evidence to support the hurricane release theory, along with friggin' common sense to back it up.

For anyone interested, some good articles on the subject
can be foun at:

http://www.vpi.com/publications

So Paul, what have YOU done to fight the JUNK, GARBAGE science being spewed by the *corrupt* government scientists? This is not a trivial thing, it's an egregious abuse of power by someone entrusted by "we the people." I will not apologize for trying to spread the word on corrupt government scientists who publish nonsense to cause mass hysteria to an unaware public. I will not
apologize for attacking CORRUPT GOVERNMENT SCIENTISTS claiming Burmese Pythons can establish wild populations in Delaware.
What have you done, Paul? You are a scientist. Above all others, you should be leading the charge against garbage science.
If you've done nothing, then you are part of the problem, and you will be partly responsible when the government outlaws your rainbow boas and the rest of our pets.

And of course the other option- Anybody ever lost a snake?
If they are genetically close and 4 people lost their young Burms... Tada! Burm population in the Everglades.

And it's beside the point. Regardless of whether they were intentionally released or left during a hurricane- whatever- IF they are a harmful species, better regulation on who has these snakes isn't a bad idea. Specifically- BURMESE PYTHONS IN ENVIRONMENTS THEY CAN LIVE IN.

Telling someone in Alaska they can't import a Burm is silly.
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1.1.0 beardies
1.0.0 bloodred corn
0.1.0 striped anery corn
0.1.0 the cutest lil BRB ever- courtesy of Dave!
0.1.0 leopard gecko
0.1.0 golden gecko
0.2.0 mourning geckos
1.1.0 cats

Ah, but according to Rodda they may reach Pennsylvania Ave in the future.
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

"And it's beside the point. Regardless of whether they were intentionally released or left during a hurricane- whatever- IF they are a harmful species, better regulation on who has these snakes isn't a bad idea. Specifically- BURMESE PYTHONS IN ENVIRONMENTS THEY CAN LIVE IN."

Its the 'better regulation' part that most people have a problem with. Who's going to set it? Ideally, the hobby would police itself but this won't happen (not effectively).
I have a problem with invasive species. They can wreck havoc. I'm not sure what impact Burmese Pythons are having in the Everglades but an impact is happening for sure. But to what extent? I cheered when I read Ed's statement that they've found feral cats in the stomachs of Burms in the 'glades. You cannot over-emphasis the problem of feral cats (domestic cats that are allowed outdoors are also a massive problem, the slaughter of our native wildlife is staggering). I actually love cats; awesome animals, but they belong indoors.
Here in California we have one native turtle, the Western Pond Turtle. However, if you go herping here in the Sacramento Valley you'll find lots of turtles. Unfortunately, most will be Red-eared Sliders. These did not escape from breeding facilities. They established themselves from being released into the wild. Our native turtle is declining. Like everything, a number of factors are at play. Competition with Red-eared Sliders might play a role. Introduced Bull Frogs are a huge reason. Of course habitat loss is the biggest reason. So yeah, invasive species change things. Its whether the view of particular change is good or bad.
Paul

The Western Pond Turtle is not the only native turtle to California. That darn Sonoran Mud turtle mucked up a great statement by inhabiting a small area in the south-east corner of our great state.
Sigh.

On N. Key Largo at the Ocean Reef Club there is a large colony of wild feral cats which are fed by the residents. It is a place that past Presidents have stayed at. Next door to that is the Crocodile Lakes National Wildlife Refuge. The endangered Wood Rats live there as well. One of only 2-3 Pythons caught on Key Largo had the remains of a Wood Rat in it's stomach. The scientist NEVER MENTION THE CATS BUT ALWAYS VILLIFY THE PYTHONS WHICH EAT THE CATS. It's likely because these cats have been there a long time that they have played a significant role in the extirpation of the rats in the first place. That is but one example of lying by ommission and making a moutain out of a molehill. This is the kind of thing a lot of folks don't want to hear and that's the truth. By the way I'm in agreement with you on many factors and think your heart is in the right place....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

...

ACTUALLY WE ARE STRICTLY REGULATED HERE IN FLORIDA NOW ON ALL HERPS AND IN THE LAST YEAR OR SO BURMESE ARE CONSIDERED REPTILES OF CONCERN AND REQUIRE A $100 ANNUAL PERMIT AS WELL AS THE SNAKES HAVE TO BE MICRO-CHIPPED. ADDITIONALLY YOU MUST FILE NATURAL DISASTER PLANS [SHOWS FL FISH AND GAME BELIEVE ANDREW DID IT] AND FILE DIAGRAMS OF YOUR FACILITIES. ALSO INSPECTIONS ARE MANDATORY ANNUALLY. I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY BURMESE ARE A NATIONAL PROBLEM SINCE THEY COULDN'T SURVIVE ANYPLACE ELSE BUT HERE. FLORIDA ALREADY HAS TAKEN STEPS TO PREVENT OTHER SPECIES FROM BEING INTRODUCED ACCIDENTLY OR INTENTIONALLY BY HAVING A NUMBER OF SNAKES AND LIZARDS ON THE REPTILES OF CONCERN LIST. THE HERP COMMUNITY HERE PLAYS AN ACTIVE ROLE IN TRYING TO HELP WHENEVER POSSIBLE STATE OFFICIALS AS NEEDED....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

This is good news!! I didn't know these measures were in place in Florida and they seem reasonable (I'm a big fan of reasonable).
You know this is a country founded on the principle of checks and balances. If all goes as it should we'll find a good balance (hey, I'm feeling good, babies today!!).
Paul

The good news is that the herpers here in Fl helped promulgate the law regarding the Reptiles of Concern and even aided the State to identify possible problematic species to place on the list. This is a model of how regulation should happen but not a ban based on junk science on a federal level....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Mr. Rodda and company are the authors of one of the most flawed and ridiculous piece of junk science that I've ever had the misfortune to read. Even some journalist like the one in San Francisco were making fun of them in editorials. Even a lot of LAY PEOPLE knew it was ridiculous and they are employeed I believe by USGS. Not suggesting your a crackpot meglamaniac seeking fame and fortune at the expense of our hobby but they sure are. I'm surprised you don't understand the backlash effect and why normal people would criticize...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

"I'm surprised you don't understand the backlash effect and why normal people would criticize..."

Hi Tom,
Why would you think I don't understand this? I would have to be an idiot to not see the backlash and criticism. I'm trying to stem some of the criticism and let people know that alot, if not most, of the government scientist out there are competent, ethical, scientists . I know this to be true in my agency (I work for water resources division of the USGS). If your confused as to why I object to generalizing government scientists as "junk scientist" it is because it paints all of us in government science as dishonest crackpots. I'm surprised you don't understand my dismay when I read these generalizations. I know there is bad science out there. All I ask is that don't lump all of us as crackpots. If I stated that this hobby is in trouble because of the unethical 'big breeders' selling retics and burms to 12 year old boys at the expos and kept over and over again saying the same thing (I'm making a point here, I don't think this) about 'big breeders', I'm betting you'd take offense and want to clarify that not all big breeders are unethical. I'd hope this would be obvious as to my intent. If your confused on this then it is my fault for communicating poorly.
A side note about my above example regarding the selling of big snakes to young kids. This is a problem. I was at our show here in Sacramento and watched a harried mother purchase two baby Reticulated pythons for her sons. I watched as first it was one for the oldest boy, maybe 12, then a second for the screaming and crying 8 yr old or so son who had to have one also. The vendor (big, big name, all over these forums) representative just stood there with a grin waiting for the 90 dollars (I think this was the cost for two, it may have been less). Anyone who doesn't think this plays out at every show across the country is fooling themselves. Something needs to be done to address this.
Thanks for reading,
Paul

I personally rarely if ever offer for sale Retics or Burmese unless they are giants because of folks buying them that shouldn't have them. I don't breed any now nor have any plans to in the future for the same reasons. I do support the rights of others to do so in a responsible way however....I'm in agreement with you on most points...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Paul, I wish the academics [not all but many] would STOP trying to spout out junk science to get grant money to further their career. Done properly as with Boiga irregularis one can live wonderfully off these invasives and have done so already. These junk scientist have NOT made a dent in the Boiga populations in over 20 years of trying to figure a way to get rid of them. They will have the same results with the Burmese but in order to keep the money flowing they must stir the pot with hysteria based on junk science press releases. I imagine everyone here would shut up if they would. In fact THEY are the ones perpetuating all this bull@#^&%....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Tom,
Sometimes this forum editor is frustrating. Went to look up a word and lost my nicely written response. In brief, what I wanted to say is that academics is really competitive and is why many of our top scientist in USGS (WRD at least) are with us. They wanted to do science and not chase grants.
All that good writing wiped out by one side-trip to Google......
Paul

WELL IT'S TIT FOR TAT, ALL OUR GOOD WORK KNOCKED OUT BY MOTHER NATURE AND THE PYTHONS........AT LEAST WE DIDN'T INTENTIONALLY DO IT LIKE RODDA DID....TOUCHE
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I don't know if it should be up to science to figure out a way to get rid of an invasive species once it has established itself. How about the general public step up and take responsibility to not let it happen in the first place.
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Mike Lockwood
www.tooscaley.com

No one will ever get rid of the many thousands of these snakes living in a 4,000 square mile inaccessable subtropical swamp. They are here to stay....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Seems like it's almost universally accepted that the presence of the pythons has an overall harmful effect on local wildlife. I question that. Not sure it's really possible to measure, but certainly basing that conclusion on the 5 or 6 hand picked anecdotes of the stomach contents of pythons is not science, nor is it a search for the truth. Like Tom said, feral cats have been found in a lot of the captured pythons. Pythons, compared to most other animals, just don't eat that much. Pythons provide a food source to local wildlife (raptors, alligators, possibly threatened Indigos snakes, etc.)

Again, the ecosystem is so complex that it's hard to measure, but at the same time putting pythons in the same category as snakehead fish, Kudzu or Zebra mussels is ridiculous at this point.

Thanks,
Ed

>>No one will ever get rid of the many thousands of these snakes living in a 4,000 square mile inaccessable subtropical swamp. They are here to stay....
>>-----
>>Tom Crutchfield
>>www.tomcrutchfield.com

The jury is out on how much harm if any they will cause. It will take many years to actually measure the impact on the ecosystem they will have. None the less I will do anything in my power to stop anything like this from happening again....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Ed,
....You did not mention the worst invasive species of all. The feral hog has done a thousand times as much damage to native flora and fauna all over the country as the Burmese Pythons could ever possibly do. What this is all about is political grand standing. The Burms are making headlines and so that is where the bastard politicians make an effort to appear to be saving us. The scientists at the various state and federal agencies know better but they play along to make sure they get increased responsibilty and more importantly funding.
....I still think the discussion of whether the Burms came from breeders or dealers or private owners is pointless. We in the herp hobby/business are all one big family (with some very strange brothers and sisters mixed in there) and we all share the blame.
Jeff

That damned Spaniard Hernando De Soto brought the pigs here in the 1500's. Let's pass a law prohibiting Spaniards from having pigs...lol...Jeff you are 100% correct...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

When are we going to pass a law prohibiting Homo sapiens, far and a way one of the most "invasive", dangerous and destructive species to every roam the planet.

I didn't mention feral pigs because I didn't know whether they were found in the stomach's of captured pythons.

Thanks,
Ed

>>That damned Spaniard Hernando De Soto brought the pigs here in the 1500's. Let's pass a law prohibiting Spaniards from having pigs...lol...Jeff you are 100% correct...
>>-----
>>Tom Crutchfield
>>www.tomcrutchfield.com

Actually I believe they have been found in one or more snakes but I'll double-check it to see for sure...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Jeff,

Of course it's about political grandstanding. That's what I'm making all these posts about, I'm trying to get others to see that.

When the Animal Rights wackos stop blaming the python situation on irresponsible owners, I'll agreee with you the discussion is
pointless. But not until then.

I don't understand your comment that we share the blame. Blame for what?

Thanks,
Ed

>>Ed,
>>....You did not mention the worst invasive species of all. The feral hog has done a thousand times as much damage to native flora and fauna all over the country as the Burmese Pythons could ever possibly do. What this is all about is political grand standing. The Burms are making headlines and so that is where the bastard politicians make an effort to appear to be saving us. The scientists at the various state and federal agencies know better but they play along to make sure they get increased responsibilty and more importantly funding.
>>....I still think the discussion of whether the Burms came from breeders or dealers or private owners is pointless. We in the herp hobby/business are all one big family (with some very strange brothers and sisters mixed in there) and we all share the blame.
>>Jeff

Ed,
...A breeding population of any introduced species is a problem. There is a breeding population of Burms in the Everglades. We can agree that the problem has been blown WAY out of proportion but that does not mean it is not a problem. Somebody??? did something wrong to cause the problem. IMO the breeders are no less and at the same time no more to blame for this problem than we hobbyists are. If there was no demand for the snakes from we hobbyists the commercial breeders would not breed them.
Jeff

>>Jeff,
>>
>>Of course it's about political grandstanding. That's what I'm making all these posts about, I'm trying to get others to see that.
>>
>>When the Animal Rights wackos stop blaming the python situation on irresponsible owners, I'll agreee with you the discussion is
>>pointless. But not until then.
>>
>>I don't understand your comment that we share the blame. Blame for what?
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Ed
>>
>>
>>>>Ed,
>>>>....You did not mention the worst invasive species of all. The feral hog has done a thousand times as much damage to native flora and fauna all over the country as the Burmese Pythons could ever possibly do. What this is all about is political grand standing. The Burms are making headlines and so that is where the bastard politicians make an effort to appear to be saving us. The scientists at the various state and federal agencies know better but they play along to make sure they get increased responsibilty and more importantly funding.
>>>>....I still think the discussion of whether the Burms came from breeders or dealers or private owners is pointless. We in the herp hobby/business are all one big family (with some very strange brothers and sisters mixed in there) and we all share the blame.
>>>>Jeff

I think most of us could agree that proposing some regulation on Burmese python sales (perhaps all snakes over appx 14 ft?) would be a good thing. All of us here are aware that there are people who get in over their heads with reptiles and often don't do their research. Dave, Jeff- people actually have to do some work to find you guys and I'm sure you still get some bizarre and semi-stupid Qs. (Personal favorite being "does it bite?"

It wasn't too long ago that I had someone want to buy my 55g standard aquarium for a Burmese. I told him flat out that it was the wrong tank for what he had. It didn't provide enough floorspace, wasn't good at holding humidity and he'd have to upgrade in a matter of months. He wanted it anyways.

The crux of this one is that they are using one particular type of snake to punish an industry. It's ridiculous. Some senator's kid has to have a BP. Last I read it was prohibiting cross state sales of all boids... has it changed?
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1.1.0 beardies
1.0.0 bloodred corn
0.1.0 striped anery corn
0.1.0 the cutest lil BRB ever- courtesy of Dave!
0.1.0 leopard gecko
0.1.0 golden gecko
0.2.0 mourning geckos
1.1.0 cats

Jeff said: Around 12 years ago there was some information going around that the pet industry did a survey and found that one in every forty homes in America had at least one pet reptile.

The number 12 years ago was 3.5% (1 in 30ish) based upon industry data I got before opening ARC.

I believe I heard recently the number for herp keepers is closer to 6% (1 in 16ish) of USA households.

With mammals similar to herps and fish over 10% a recent industry estimate was 90,000,000 households have non-indigenous species in the home. That is a huge number, and just the pet trade. When one considers non-natives are farmed for food perhaps 50% of USA households would be impacted by a ban.

Fortunately for all of us, PIJAC has been a DC insider for close to 40 years. The bureaucrats know and trust PIJAC. Anytime these bans come up PIJAC is invited to give input. Despite noise made on this and other websites to the contrary, any future successes will require their support.

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AMAZON REPTILE CENTER