Reptile & Amphibian Forums

is there a White BD my friend wants one and says they are out there, is it a morph or ? Luecy,hypo Amel?? any pics would be nice thanks

Hypos that have the color bred out of them are white. This is an older photo. (I don't have any available.) The white dragon in this photo was produced by Josh Dovenbarger aka Phantom Dragons.

Marketed Leucistics(White BDs)are a Hypomelanistic dragon with clear nails and is the same genetic trait as Hypopastel, Pastel, Hypomelanistic. The Marketed Leucistic lines that I've worked with originated from dragons that were very normal looking. So when you are looking to make hets you want to choose a dragon that has the least red, orange or yellow. If you choose a Dragon with color when you finally produce your Marketed Leucistics it will be a Hypopastel/Pastel because a good portion of the color from the colored parent will exhibit itself in the offspring. In my experience it takes several generations to breed color out, but it is much easier to start with a suitable normal looking partner.

Another side note is that many times Marketed Leucistics take several to many sheds to reach their full potential. So if you buy a White BD Young you want to make sure you look at the parents/grandparents to see the dragons potential.

Marketed Leucistic (Hypomelanstic with clear nails)

Black Super Translucent
(Belgian het Translucent x Sandfire Translucent X F1 x Sandfire Translucent)

Randy
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www.AlphaDragonZ.com

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I have seen them called snow or blizzard dragons in the past...but lately they seem to be marketed leucistics (or just pale pastels, hypos)
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PHLdyPayne

The origional "marketed leucistics" were imported by Kevin Dunne. Pastels were created by Bob at Sandfire Dragon Ranch. Pastels have been around long before marketed leucistics came here, and could possibly be what started them. Many beardeds have been sent out of the US over the years. Also, both types work the same way and are compatible. White dragons are more of an indoor creation vs. keeping them outdoors, which will eventually turn a white dragon into a light tan, grey, green, yellow,or pink color(pastel). I agree, the best way to mess up your white bearded project is to add color to it. Think of breeding beardeds like doing your laundry. Josh

Another thing that is interesting about The Marketed Leucistics from Kevin Dunne is that out the four MLs and hets that I bought the females easily attained 800 grams in their first year. They topped out at just under 900 grams. The male ML that I kept is a huge guy too but not as big as those girls.

The most intriguing thing about the MLs that I have from Kevin is that the male has a very different block shaped head and a bright yellow mouth like a Pogona Barbata. His head resemble most closely the Imported German Giant that I bred that was imported from the Ukraine, which also had a yellow mouth and a huge chunky head. A few of the factors that I mentioned and a few others lead me to think that Kevin Dunne's line had some Pogona Barbata bred into them in the not so distant past. As most already know American Beardies are not just Pogona vitticeps but a mix of a few different species of Pogona.

There was a guy in England several years ago that had a website and I believe he wrote that he hatched them out of two large normal looking dragons. If anybody remembers that website or wants to waybackmachine.org it would be much appreciated. I am not sure if this is where Mark Leshock, who was the first one to import Marketed Leucistics into the US, or Kevin Dunne bought their MLs.

Although I never worked with Mark Leshock's line I heard that it was extremely weak. Basically giving the the MLs a bad name when they first were introduced.

All the bearded Dragon Breeders need to pay a Bearded Dragon Historian to keep track of all the Bloodline history as I find this stuff very interesting....lol

Randy
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www.AlphaDragonZ.com

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Honestly, I don't see why anyone would pay a pretty penny for a white dragon. I don't think they look very attractive IMO. I guess some people would pay big bucks for them just because they are rare and not a lot of people have them. I prefer the sandfires, the yellow morph (the citrus or whatever they are called), and the German giants. I don't know.... Maybe that's just me!

Lol...Alot of people feel the same way as you do. I think the market for the Marketed Leucistic morph goes in phases. For a couple years Markeded Leucistics were $500 dollars a piece. Yes I said $500 dollars....lol

Randy
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www.AlphaDragonZ.com

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Determining origin by head size, weight, and mouth color is highly inaccurate until some sort of DNA testing has been done. Until then, everything is pure speculation. We may be working with P.vitticeps from many different locales in austraila, and for all we know there could be subspecies. One area could have P. vitticeps with yellow mouths, tilted eyes, larger heads, and another area have P. vitticeps that are smaller sized, dark, and have orange colored irises. Mix these animals together and you have an assortment of things going on with their offspring. You may have babies that have different temperature requirements, size, color, pattern, preferance of certain food items, etc. It could very well be that other species have been mixed in too, who knows. I could send a group of transluscents to China. After a few generations of being bred over there, they are going to look different than the origional animals I sent. Someone could easily say they have a new, unrelated line. This could very well be the same situation as the marketed leucistics.

It seems like finding normal beardeds(true grey normals)is becoming more and more rare. Everything has color now, which makes finding/producing pure white beardeds difficult. I find that out of all the color morphs of beardeds, white ones are by far the most difficult to produce. Thanks, Josh

Thanks to ALL , i am concluding that it is not a morph but selective bred Hypo/Pastel

My apoligies for taking this thread a bit off topic. You probably got way more info than you needed, lol. Josh

Determining origin by head size, weight, and mouth color is highly inaccurate until some sort of DNA testing has been done. Until then, everything is pure speculation.

The leading technique to elucidate ancestry in animals is Mitochondrial DNA. Pogona vitticeps Mitochondrial DNA was just sequenced in 2005 (Amer et. al 2005) and to my knowledge only one group is working on research that remotely addresses some of the Phylogenic points of debate in the Pogona Genus. So with that in mind the system in use for identifying Pogona sp. is the Traditional Taxonomy and Classification that can be found in any field guide or Herpetology/Zoology Publication. These are long established systems to identify different Genus, species and subspecies. The most common system to classify organisms is called a Dichotomous Key. This is the same systematic approach that I taught when I taught Invertebrate and Vertebrate Zoology Laboratory. A Dichotomous Key helps a scientist identify an unknown organism just by answering a series of questions when looking at the physical characteristics of the organism. Scientists/Herpetologists look for differences between related organisms and use those to classify them. Some of the characteristics used to identify different Bearded dragon species are Head size, Length, spinouseness (arrangement of spikes), color of mouth and etc (Cogger 2000). Here is a partial Pogona Identification chart (Cogger 2000)

http://www.bearded-dragon-network.com/oldbvd/pogonakey.htm#Key3

Here is another defining characteristic of P. barbata published by (Cogger 2000, Wilson and Knowles 1998, Houston1978, Amey and Whittier 2000) “The inside of the mouth is generally a bright yellow color”(Abel 2000) In this same article the also contrast the physical characteristics of P. vitticeps with P. barbata for purposes of identification. A number of keys have been devised which detail the key diagnostic characteristics of species, enabling people to differentiate species.(Hoser 1997)

We may be working with P.vitticeps from many different locales in austraila, and for all we know there could be subspecies.

It is very likely that we are working with different species and maybe subspecies of P. Barbarta, P. Vitticeps, P. Henrylawsonii and etc… Genus, species, and subspecies are classifications in Biological Systematics. The scientists/herpetologists and their peers who research Pogona sp. are the ones who decide Taxonomy for Pogona species. Although it is a point of contention none of the accepted Species of Pogona have any subspecies at this time(Fig.1):

Fig 1.

• Family Agamidae (agamas)
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Genus Pogona
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Species Pogona barbata
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Species Pogona henrylawsoni
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Species Pogona microlepidota
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Species Pogona minima
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Species Pogona minor (dwarf bearded dragon)
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Species Pogona nullarbor
•
Species Pogona vitticeps (central bearded dragon)

It has been noted that in parts of inland Eastern Australia both Pogona barbata and P. vitticeps occur in relatively close proximity. However within these areas, each species appears to be restricted to particular habitat and/or soil type and there appears to be no overlap. A study on the distribution patterns of both species is long overdue (Hoser 1996)

One area could have P. vitticeps with yellow mouths, tilted eyes, larger heads, and another area have P. vitticeps that are smaller sized, dark, and have orange colored irises.

This is all true but when coming up with a good Pogona Identification chart you want to carefully choose defining characteristics. Scientists/Herpetologists strive to choose defining characteristics that separate the species into classifications that result in the same conclusion 100% percent of the time. Keeping that in mind science is mostly made up by hypotheses and the goal is to prove them wrong.

Mix these animals together and you have an assortment of things going on with their offspring. You may have babies that have different temperature requirements, size, color, pattern, preferance of certain food items, etc. It could very well be that other species have been mixed in too, who knows.

There was a study done in the last few years that some American Bearded Dragon breeders were involved in. The study took DNA from many different American Bearded Breeders Dragons and extracted DNA from the shed epidermis of Pogona species. They compared them to known DNA sequences from several different Pogona species. The study found that American Bearded Dragons had DNA from several different Pogona species. (Campbell-Staton 2008)

My supposition that Kevin Dunne’s line may have physical characteristics of P. barbata is my opinion that is supported by my breeding experiences, observations and most importantly published research of which I have expounded in this post.

Thanks,

Randy

Mitochondrial genome of Pogona vitticepes (Reptilia; Agamidae): control region duplication and the origin of Australasian agamids.Amer SA, Kumazawa Y.Gene. 2005 Feb 14;346:249-56.

Badham (1976), Storr, (1982) and Wells and Wellington (1985)
Cogger (1992) Cogger,H.G. 2000. Reptiles and Amphibians of Australia, 6th ed. Ralph Curtis Publishing, Sanibel Island

http://data.gbif.org/species/browse/taxon/13213843?qs=Pogona

http://www.bearded-dragon-network.com/oldbvd/pogonakey.htm#Key3

Wells, R. W. and Wellington, C. R. (1984), 'A synopsis of the class Reptilia in Australia', Australian Journal of Herpetology, 1(3-4):73-129.

Wells, R. W. and Wellington, C. R. (1985), 'A classification of the Amphibia and Reptilia of Australia', Australian Journal of Herpetology, Supplementary Series No. 1:1-61.

Hoser, R. T. (1989), Australian Reptiles and Frogs, Pierson and Co., Mosman, NSW, 2088, Australia. 238 pp.

Hoser, R. T. (1991), 'Observations of egg-laying by a Bearded Dragon (Pogona barbata) Cuvier, Newsletter of the Australian Herpetological Society, Spring:11.

Hoser, R. T. (1997), Smuggled-2: Wildlife Trafficking, Crime and Corruption in Australia, Kotabi Publishing, Doncaster, Victoria, Australia. 280 pp.

Hoser, R. T. (1996), 'Reptiles encountered Collecting in the Pilbara - Australia', The Reptilian, 4 (2): 25-35.

http://www.jcu.edu.au/school/tbiol/zoology/herp/Pogonabarbata.PDF

Campbell-Staton 2008, MolecularAnalysis of Bottleneck Event and Georgraphic Origin of Captive U.S. Pogona vitticeps Population

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www.AlphaDragonZ.com

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I didn't realize it was this complicated with the American bearded dragons. I thought it was just a rumor that American bearded had different species mixed into them.

"Determining origin by head size, weight, and mouth color is highly inaccurate until some sort of DNA testing has been done. Until then, everything is pure speculation."

This statement was directed towards your observations of captive bearded orgin, not describing wild Pogona. I'm asking you these questions respectively: How can you be so certain that your import german giant is really a german giant? He's an import, yes, but unrelated? How would you really know this? I'm still not convinced that because a bearded has a yellow mouth and large size, it must have barbata genes. This is what I mean by pure speculation.

Differences in P. vitticeps and P. barbata: The "beard" scales of P.barbata are considerably larger than those of P. vitticeps. The granular scales at the rear of the head of P. barbata are in the shape of a horseshoe whilst those of P. vitticeps are in horozontal rows. The ear drum of the latter species is bedded deeper into the jaw musculature than of P. barbata(Badham 1976)

*No mention of head size or yellow mouth.

"Bearded dragons and Frilled Lizards" by Hauschild and Bosch have maps that show the range of both vitticeps and barbata. Both species DO overlap in the wild.

There was some DNA work done on Rhacodactylus a while back. The whole genus has been broken up. For instance, R. chahoua is now Eurydactylodes chahoua. Eurydactylodes agricolae and E. chahoua look nothing alike physically, but similar genetically. One is 5 inches that sprays a gooey substance when disturbed, the other is 8 inch giant. Somewhere along the line, they broke apart from each other. We may find genes from multiple pogona in our captive vitticeps, but I seriously doubt multiple species have been added in the last 25 years. Barbata and henylawsoni possibly, but from what I understand, henrylawsoni and vitticeps crosses are mules. There was a woman here in San Diego who used to make "vittikins" years ago, and couldn't get them past the hybrid.

Thanks, Josh

I agree. It sounds like speculation. We need CSI.

Another question would be why we are not seeing other differences between barbata and vitticeps in our captive dragons? Why are the only indicators weight, head size, and mouth coloration? These are way too broad. Over the years, we have selectively bred dragons for certain physical traits. Breeding for size and large head can be done with pure vitticeps. Many different reptiles are selectively bred for similar traits without hybridization. The tremper giant leopard gecko is a prime example. I have yet too see a captive bearded dragon with the same intense, mustard yellow mouth coloration that pure barbata have. Maybe a hint of yellow, but nothing to convince me that barbata genes are responsible. There are other factors that can contribute to mouth coloration. Don't get me wrong, i'm open to the possibility that our captive beardeds could have a small percentage of barbata. I just wouldn't state it as fact unless I absolutely knew for sure.
Thanks, Josh

Correction:

*No mention of head size or yellow mouth.

There is no mention of yellow mouth in barbata vs. vitticeps in the info stated, but many other sources claim that barbata have a significant yellow colored mouth compared to vitticeps. Sorry for the confusion.

Josh

This is just speculation on my part:

I do see the possibility of barbata genes mixed into the marketed leucistics, and this is why: In order to achieve such a white bearded, a dragon that is black, almost melanistic could have been used(like a barbata). The hybrid between the two can also create an oversized dragon. As generations pass and the origional dragons get mixed with the existing stock, they get smaller. I wonder why we don't see barbata traits being expressed? One would think at some point, something would pop out. Not just mouth color, but several rows of spines, scalation, pattern, etc. Maybe everything is just too watered down. The pastel line that sandfire has created could have possibly been crossed to these dragons(barbata) to create what is now the marketed leucistics. It could also be that many years ago when some of the origional dragons were brought in, they were collected in an area where a hypomelanistic gene was present. Some dragons came here, others stayed in europe.

All we have are bits and pieces to work with. It's all interesting, but trying to figure out what is accurate and what is not is extremely difficult. We will probably never know the real truth.

Josh

i know the real truth however i cannot open up the files for another 10 yrs. sorry...yossi