Reptile & Amphibian Forums

http://www.geocities.com/chamjacksonii/
topic: background
More on Winnegensis
I believe this info originated in the adcham forum.
-----
http://briefcase.yahoo.com/alanvines2002
2.5 Jacksonii Xantholophus (two red phase fem}
35 Jacksonii Xantholophus neonates
0.0.2 Phelsuma M. Grandis
2.3 Anolis C. with 3 neonates
1 neonate texas blue spiny

>>http://www.geocities.com/chamjacksonii/
>>topic: background
>>More on Winnegensis
>> I believe this info originated in the adcham forum.
>>-----
>>http://briefcase.yahoo.com/alanvines2002
>>2.5 Jacksonii Xantholophus (two red phase fem}
>> 35 Jacksonii Xantholophus neonates
>>0.0.2 Phelsuma M. Grandis
>>2.3 Anolis C. with 3 neonates
>> 1 neonate texas blue spiny

Here is the source of that info. I don't see anywhere that any mention of cross breeding with xantholophus is made...
His source of that info

-----
Chris Anderson
parsonii_hoehnelii@hotmail.com
Chameleon Care and Information Center (CCIC) - http://www.geocities.com/ccicenter/
Chameleons Online E-zine - http://www.chameleonnews.com/

>>>>http://www.geocities.com/chamjacksonii/
>>>>topic: background
>>>>More on Winnegensis
>>>> I believe this info originated in the adcham forum.
>>>>-----
>>>>http://briefcase.yahoo.com/alanvines2002
>>>>2.5 Jacksonii Xantholophus (two red phase fem}
>>>> 35 Jacksonii Xantholophus neonates
>>>>0.0.2 Phelsuma M. Grandis
>>>>2.3 Anolis C. with 3 neonates
>>>> 1 neonate texas blue spiny
>>
>>Here is the source of that info. I don't see anywhere that any mention of cross breeding with xantholophus is made...
>>His source of that info
>>
>>-----
>>Chris Anderson
>>parsonii_hoehnelii@hotmail.com
>>Chameleon Care and Information Center (CCIC) - http://www.geocities.com/ccicenter/
>>Chameleons Online E-zine - http://www.chameleonnews.com/

Here is the copy and pase paragraph to which I referred:

"Apparently, people used this name as a sort of "working name" to distinguish these animals from the other Jackson's because at the time it was unknown whether or not this was a new subspecies of jacksonii. Today these Jackson's, formerly know as Willegensis, are now regarded as a (color) variant of the nominate form (jacksonii jacksonii) even though it has been reported that their habitats are quite a distance apart from each other. The colors, size, and shapes of those on the western slopes of Mt. Kenya are different from one valley to the next, yet they are all jacksonii jacksonii. Using the characters used to separate the other three subspecies, the Willegensis is identical to the nominate form. Given the sometimes close proximity of the jacksonii jacksonii and the jacksonii xantholophus they have been known to interbreed in the wild, and produce a funny looking medium-sized chameleon"
this last sentence is the one to which I referred.
-----
http://briefcase.yahoo.com/alanvines2002
2.5 Jacksonii Xantholophus (two red phase fem}
35 Jacksonii Xantholophus neonates
0.0.2 Phelsuma M. Grandis
2.3 Anolis C. with 3 neonates
1 neonate texas blue spiny

>>>>>>http://www.geocities.com/chamjacksonii/
>>>>>>topic: background
>>>>>>More on Winnegensis
>>>>>> I believe this info originated in the adcham forum.
>>>>>>-----
>>>>>>http://briefcase.yahoo.com/alanvines2002
>>>>>>2.5 Jacksonii Xantholophus (two red phase fem}
>>>>>> 35 Jacksonii Xantholophus neonates
>>>>>>0.0.2 Phelsuma M. Grandis
>>>>>>2.3 Anolis C. with 3 neonates
>>>>>> 1 neonate texas blue spiny
>>>>
>>>>Here is the source of that info. I don't see anywhere that any mention of cross breeding with xantholophus is made...
>>>>His source of that info
>>>>
>>>>-----
>>>>Chris Anderson
>>>>parsonii_hoehnelii@hotmail.com
>>>>Chameleon Care and Information Center (CCIC) - http://www.geocities.com/ccicenter/
>>>>Chameleons Online E-zine - http://www.chameleonnews.com/
>>
>>Here is the copy and pase paragraph to which I referred:
>>
>>"Apparently, people used this name as a sort of "working name" to distinguish these animals from the other Jackson's because at the time it was unknown whether or not this was a new subspecies of jacksonii. Today these Jackson's, formerly know as Willegensis, are now regarded as a (color) variant of the nominate form (jacksonii jacksonii) even though it has been reported that their habitats are quite a distance apart from each other. The colors, size, and shapes of those on the western slopes of Mt. Kenya are different from one valley to the next, yet they are all jacksonii jacksonii. Using the characters used to separate the other three subspecies, the Willegensis is identical to the nominate form. Given the sometimes close proximity of the jacksonii jacksonii and the jacksonii xantholophus they have been known to interbreed in the wild, and produce a funny looking medium-sized chameleon"
>> this last sentence is the one to which I referred.
>>-----
>>http://briefcase.yahoo.com/alanvines2002
>>2.5 Jacksonii Xantholophus (two red phase fem}
>> 35 Jacksonii Xantholophus neonates
>>0.0.2 Phelsuma M. Grandis
>>2.3 Anolis C. with 3 neonates
>> 1 neonate texas blue spiny

I see where he wrote this but I do not see where he got this information since the link is the source of that information and it says absolutely nothing about xanths crossing with the willigensis form of jaxjax
Chris
-----
Chris Anderson
parsonii_hoehnelii@hotmail.com
Chameleon Care and Information Center (CCIC) - http://www.geocities.com/ccicenter/
Chameleons Online E-zine - http://www.chameleonnews.com/

>>>>>>>>http://www.geocities.com/chamjacksonii/
>>>>>>>>topic: background
>>>>>>>>More on Winnegensis
>>>>>>>> I believe this info originated in the adcham forum.
>>>>>>>>-----
>>>>>>>>http://briefcase.yahoo.com/alanvines2002
>>>>>>>>2.5 Jacksonii Xantholophus (two red phase fem}
>>>>>>>> 35 Jacksonii Xantholophus neonates
>>>>>>>>0.0.2 Phelsuma M. Grandis
>>>>>>>>2.3 Anolis C. with 3 neonates
>>>>>>>> 1 neonate texas blue spiny
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Here is the source of that info. I don't see anywhere that any mention of cross breeding with xantholophus is made...
>>>>>>His source of that info
>>>>>>
>>>>>>-----
>>>>>>Chris Anderson
>>>>>>parsonii_hoehnelii@hotmail.com
>>>>>>Chameleon Care and Information Center (CCIC) - http://www.geocities.com/ccicenter/
>>>>>>Chameleons Online E-zine - http://www.chameleonnews.com/
>>>>
>>>>Here is the copy and pase paragraph to which I referred:
>>>>
>>>>"Apparently, people used this name as a sort of "working name" to distinguish these animals from the other Jackson's because at the time it was unknown whether or not this was a new subspecies of jacksonii. Today these Jackson's, formerly know as Willegensis, are now regarded as a (color) variant of the nominate form (jacksonii jacksonii) even though it has been reported that their habitats are quite a distance apart from each other. The colors, size, and shapes of those on the western slopes of Mt. Kenya are different from one valley to the next, yet they are all jacksonii jacksonii. Using the characters used to separate the other three subspecies, the Willegensis is identical to the nominate form. Given the sometimes close proximity of the jacksonii jacksonii and the jacksonii xantholophus they have been known to interbreed in the wild, and produce a funny looking medium-sized chameleon"
>>>> this last sentence is the one to which I referred.
>>>>-----
>>>>http://briefcase.yahoo.com/alanvines2002
>>>>2.5 Jacksonii Xantholophus (two red phase fem}
>>>> 35 Jacksonii Xantholophus neonates
>>>>0.0.2 Phelsuma M. Grandis
>>>>2.3 Anolis C. with 3 neonates
>>>> 1 neonate texas blue spiny
>>
>>I see where he wrote this but I do not see where he got this information since the link is the source of that information and it says absolutely nothing about xanths crossing with the willigensis form of jaxjax
>>Chris
>>-----
>>Chris Anderson
>>parsonii_hoehnelii@hotmail.com
>>Chameleon Care and Information Center (CCIC) - http://www.geocities.com/ccicenter/
>>Chameleons Online E-zine - http://www.chameleonnews.com/
-----
http://briefcase.yahoo.com/alanvines2002
2.5 Jacksonii Xantholophus (two red phase fem}
35 Jacksonii Xantholophus neonates
0.0.2 Phelsuma M. Grandis
2.3 Anolis C. with 3 neonates
1 neonate texas blue spiny

This was written a few years back, so it's hard to nail down where (or from who) that came from. I'm sure I've got it in a file. What I do recall was that it came from a post to the Adcham listserve. It may have been in a post written by a member about a conversation with Gary Ferguson. Sorry, I don't recall. If I find where it came from I'll be happy to post a follow up. But at any rate it wasn't made up.

SteveO

>>This was written a few years back, so it's hard to nail down where (or from who) that came from. I'm sure I've got it in a file. What I do recall was that it came from a post to the Adcham listserve. It may have been in a post written by a member about a conversation with Gary Ferguson. Sorry, I don't recall. If I find where it came from I'll be happy to post a follow up. But at any rate it wasn't made up.
>>
>>SteveO
hey steve0, It would be great also if you could possibly clarify "funny looking" as a description of the cross. Please do post any more info you do find on this.
-----
http://briefcase.yahoo.com/alanvines2002
2.5 Jacksonii Xantholophus (two red phase fem}
35 Jacksonii Xantholophus neonates
0.0.2 Phelsuma M. Grandis
2.3 Anolis C. with 3 neonates
1 neonate texas blue spiny

I really do wish I could explain "funny looking". I seached through my old files containing printouts of various postings to various listervs filled with great info for future reference, but I cannot find the one(s) that pertain to this. I honestly do not recall who it was that made the comment, but I do recall that the "funny looking" was about all they said in terms of a description. I believe the postings in reference to this topic took place at a time when I was not a member. Either way I did not take part in the discussion as I've had no personal experince with cjj.

As it stands today I have no chameleons after having moved across the country last year. And I think it's time that the web site came down anyway.

My suggestion is that you - or if you're not a member of Adcham there are others here who are - bring this up as a topic for discussion to get your answer. Good luck.

SteveO

Cause you know what happens if you argue on the internet....

Regardless, internet posts are cold, and often SEEM argumentative. I doubt either of you were trying to sound that way. But I tell you, lots of interesting thought on those cross breeding posts. I think it makes the board worth reading. People ACTUALLY putting thought into posts, and SOMEONE else writing LONG posts besides be! I feel less like a nerd now!
hehe

Here's my thoughts...
If you want to try it, I see no reason crossing the nominate form with xanths, except that jacksonii are So rare, you'd be an idiot to do it until there was a decent captive population going. the fact that they have similar ranges makes this a possible natural cross, and possibly a source for speciation.

MEru's are very isolated from the others, and are so different, I personally would not try it. Hey, they might produce a nice , possibly fertile cross, maybe resulting in a new species. This does happen in nature, but things like this are results of thousands of years of species migration. Populations moving their ranges over time, eventually merging and separating with others. We CAN do this to an extent in much faster time periods. There's a certain "type" of cat, called a savanna, that is now "purebred" for the pet trade. They were, initially bred from domestic housecats(felis domesticus), and african servals(Felis serval--which my parents owned for a while, awesome pet). Now, they are a separate "Breed." Two species crossed, fertile,a nd toatally healthy and unique.

Playing God? not really. messing with genes is playing God(not that it's bad all the time). keep it at the animal level, and you're just messing with nature(which may or may not be playing God, we'll just have to die and see what he thinks about it)

I think calling the hypothetical cross "trash" is a bit incorrect. That's a personal view. to someone who wants to maintain natural species order and keep the genes pure as possible, they're worse than trash, they're a threat to the captive populaton of the species. Because once genes of a foreign species are worked into the population, even just a few alleles of alien origin, the species is changed.

While it does happen in nature, the process is cleaned and tested through the selective processes iiiin the wild. Bad things degrative to the species just do not last. In captivity, this don't happen.

When one or two out of a clutch make it in the wild, how many generations of C.B. veilds would it take to truly butcher the strenght of the species??? The few that were strong enough to make it in the wild are the only ones that are represented in the wild. In captivity, almost all of a cluttch survive to breed, even the ones that were "supposed to" die in the egg or under the ground.

I can see how people are against it, cross breeding can lead to a bunch of weird things.
If people do try to do it, the possiblility exists that, in the near future, captive population fo animals will be incompatible with the wild types. This means , basically, domestication. I'd have to say that most of us want to maintain "wild" species, animals that exist in the wild. The same SPECIES that exist in the wild.

When there is enough of a captive population, I see no problem in experimenting. I do not think we're there yet for jacksonii, as the meru's are almost as rare as the jacksonii, and are so different, it might not warrant a cross.

As far as hawaiian jacksonii....There are TONS of cheap, WC jacksonii coming in, and I don't know from where, but they are coming in from somewhere, and I assume it's hawaii. I thought you could collect them if you obtain the proper permits form Hawaii. I see petsmart's still selling adult jacksonii for less thana hundred, and they're skinny and sickly. I doubt someone's going to go theorugh the trouble of raising thm to adulthood, oly to sell them to petsmart for around $20, in large numbers, in bad condition...

Sorry about the shakey typing, it;s like 4 AM, one of my friends called me, woke me up, and I couldn't sleep....

Eric A