Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Welcome to kingsnake.com's message board system. Here you may share and discuss information with others about your favorite reptile and amphibian related topics such as care and feeding, caging requirements, permits and licenses, and more. Launched in 1997, the kingsnake.com message board system is one of the oldest and largest systems on the internet.

Click for 65% off Shipping with Reptiles 2 You
Click for ZooMed
Click here to visit Classifieds

John Stossel 20/20 is a genius

Joe Forks May 08, 2009 09:49 PM

If you didn't see his segment tonight, you missed a good one....

here's a quote:

"• THE BEST WAY TO SAVE MANY ENDANGERED SPECIES IS TO EAT THEM. International bans on the trade of rare animal parts (tiger organs, elephant tusks, rhino horns) have been about as successful as the international war on drugs. Why? Because wherever there is a demand strong enough, market forces overwhelm law enforcement. Terry Anderson of PERC, the Property and Environmental Resource Center, claims that governments have repeatedly failed when they tried to save animals by banning their sale -- it failed with the Colobus monkey in West Africa … with the alligator in China … and now, with the tiger in Asia. It's quite the conceit that a few conservation groups think a government decree can change history, and get a billion plus people to change their habits. By contrast, does America have a shortage of chickens? No, because people own them and eat them. Allowing private owners to sell animals for food or tourism saved the rhino and the elephant in Africa, and the bison in America. It could save the tiger too, if environmental groups would drop their resistance."
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Replies (24)

jscrick May 08, 2009 10:45 PM

Dr. Archie Carr did more for Chelonian conservation than any person to date. He certainly wasn't opposed to eating a turtle every now and then.

The turtle banning agenda has been primarily driven by emotional pleas and unsubstantiated here-say.

Chelonian conservation isn't new to me. I didn't just discover there was a problem by reading the local rag.

Lets' find the real root causes of diminished Turtle populations. Let's not make a Straw Man argument and blame/scapegoat those most interested in Chelonian survival.

jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

obeligz May 08, 2009 10:52 PM

Great!
Now we are sure to save our pets from extinction! :D
oby

jscrick May 08, 2009 11:39 PM



Asked for and received "Handbook of Turtles" on my 13th birthday.
Thanks, Mom and Dad.
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

OHI May 09, 2009 12:38 AM

John,

Thanks for bringing up one of the forgotten about agendas against us. The ban of turtle harvest, breeding and commerce by academics and some AR groups. This issue is really more about academics then AR groups. It is also an issue in which a majority of the herp industry has sold out their turtle brothers. You can't breed native turtles in Texas, that is RIDICULOUS! TPWD knee jerked after being scared to death by their academic cronies. The snake boys don't keep turtles so they decided to do some brown nosing, were fished in by the hype and joined in selling out their turtle brothers.

It is a shame that more turtle breeders aren't speaking up. It is a shame this industry hasn't stepped up to battle this agenda. You can sustainably harvest turtles. You should be allowed to sell turtles. You should be allowed to breed turtles. We have dropped the ball on this one.

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

obeligz May 09, 2009 10:58 AM

in the early 90-ies, up ti 1994 crested geckoes were presumed extinct, so rare were they, in 1994 this fantastic gecko species was rediscovered and a very very small founder population of wild crested geckoes was extracted from the wild popuation and the captive cresty populaton was founded.
This fantastic gecko fell madly in love wit the responsible vivarium keeper, and it seems that this feeling was mutual because ten years later, 2004, the crested gecko was one of the 10 most commonly bred herps in the UK and I think maybe also the US?
At least.. there are alot of cresties in the US, so many in fact, that it may be difficult to regard as a threatened species, but they are in the wild at least..

This is one example of a great success in herpetoculture made possible by a joint PR campaign fom a handful of scientists and the sea of amatuer hobbyists.

Same can be done with turtles, granted they need more space and propagate at a little slower rate.

As for banning turtles from texas, what is the logic behind that crap anyways?

emysbreeder May 09, 2009 05:33 PM

All we have to do is band them (adults)from export to China!We all know what happens their. NO TURTLE SOUP FOR YOU! In Florida they saw export rates for soft shell turtles go WAY UP because this once nusence turtle for fishermen became worth the same as cat fish. They were going to China. Now you cant take them during breeding/egg laying season. That is better than a all out band and doesnt hurt the little guy who wants to collect. If they would just get the Homeowners Ass.to stop sodding grass to the shoreline of all the retention ponds they wouldnt be splattered all over the highway looking for a place to lay eggs.Talk about collecting turtles whats up with all the adult E.Box and Fl.Box turtles for sale for $150EA on kingsnake.Anyone no the law on that? I know we cant sell or keep more than two box turtles here in Florida. Vic defy destiny breed Asian turtles.

TexasReptiles May 10, 2009 01:31 PM

Who are these snake boys you refer to?
Identify them please.

Randal Berry

OHI May 10, 2009 02:12 PM

You know who they are Randal

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

TexasReptiles May 10, 2009 02:34 PM

No I don't.
If you are man enough to make that statement, then name who you mean.
If not, your future posts are worth nothing.
Randal

OHI May 10, 2009 02:48 PM

You can't goad and bully me Randal. I will give you a hint, though, some are on this forum right now!

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

TexasReptiles May 10, 2009 03:12 PM

Just as I called it.

Randal

OHI May 10, 2009 03:35 PM

Still not going to goad me. You can't always get what you want but if you try some time you'll find you get what you need.

Haha!

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

antelope May 10, 2009 05:46 PM

Randall, I need a shovel, it's getting deep in here!
-----
Todd Hughes

Aaron May 11, 2009 12:04 AM

The "snake boys" had nothing to do with banning captive breeding of turtles. They are for breeding all herps. If we sold out, what did we get? The answer is we got nothing and we sold nobody out. We got burned on the roadban the same as everyone else. The difference is we formed a group with our own private funds to address the issue that affects us most, namely the roadban. We did nothing against you, you know this and you are just trying to villify us because we won't spend OUR MONEY on YOUR CAUSE.

TexasReptiles May 11, 2009 07:51 AM

GREAT POST AARON!
Right on target!

Randal

brhaco May 11, 2009 08:26 AM

Welker's just trying to do the AR people's work for them-divide and conquer, right?
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Jaykis May 09, 2009 01:51 PM

LOL..John, my copy is not signed, but was also given to me by my parents on my 13th birthday. in 1960

wstreps May 09, 2009 12:38 AM

Everyone is entitled to their opinion when it comes to the meat hunters. Mine is pretty straight forward,

Moderate collection for the pet trade is one thing but,

I don't associate the collection of turtles for the meat trade with the live animal trade. I can't distance myself far enough away from these people. What these guys do has nothing to do with me or ever will. I don't care what happens to them. It's to bad that collectors and breeders have to suffer becuse of it.

I don' think I've ever seen anything as rotten as what these turtle hunters do. Cold, ruthless. It takes a special kind of low life . The greed and stupidity exhibited by the meat hunters is the worst I've ever seen in any segment of society. True some guys made good money by killing hundreds of thousands of turtles. In my opinion making money like that doesn't make a person smart. Like selling drugs any dummy can do it.

The legal problems these guys are facing were brought on by themselves. Seasons ? bag limits ? egg harvesting quotas ? legal trapping zones ? Nothing was enough.

Their willing to heartlessly kill as many turtles as they can at any cost. Legal or other wise this makes me sick.
Turtle meat trappers represent the worst of the worst.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

brhaco May 09, 2009 08:41 AM

Ernie is exactly right! You can't feed the teeming billions in Asia on wild-caught American turtles!!! It WILL assuredly drive many species to local or total extinction unless stopped. Most of Asia's turtle fauna is either gone or nearly so for just this reason.

Farm them, captive breed them in whatever quantities you wish, sell them to whomever you wish, but wild turtles should be subject to strict science-based bag limits.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

OHI May 09, 2009 01:41 PM

Ernie,

They didn't have seasons, bag limits or legal trapping areas in Texas. They went straight to banning. Not banning the meat harvesters which they used as the goal of their actions but the hobbyists, collectors and breeders. Florida had some of these restrictions but maybe they weren't enough? Or maybe LE should have enforced them? And as you say, if they are not going to follow regulations then it doesn't matter what those regulations are.

If we follow the logic of allowing our rights or privileges to be taken away because of a few bad apples then we are ALL doomed. They are working on turtles now, amphibs, lizards and snakes are next. If we say that LE won't do their job so we better ban it then we are ALL doomed. If we say that we should ban the harvest of species X because we don't have the data to allow it then we are ALL doomed. This is the PRECAUTIONARY PRINCIPLE. If we allow the precautionary principle to be THE principle that guides us we are ALL doomed.

What about this one, if you allow citizens to keep exotic species X it could possibly escape thus it should be banned. Or, since we don't know if exotic species X could establish itself in the US because we don't have the data we should put it on the prohibited list. Sound familiar? HR 669.

We have to be regulated. We have been rolling along without regulation. We have had people abuse their privileges (turtle meat harvesters). The Tragedy of the Commons does occur and will continue to occur no matter what. If we don't regulate ourselves, this industry will be regulated for us. Since we haven't been regulating ourselves we have had all these crappy regulations passed that are not in our best interest but instead are in the best interests of AR groups, regulatory biologists and agenda pushing academics. We have to track all harvest so we can manage it, this requires regulation.

We MUST demand that academics and regulatory agencies get the data. We MUST demand that LE enforce the regulations. We MUST manage harvest using principles that are scientifically sound and that are applied equally across all species. No exceptions. We need to go NRA on them.

This is going to cost money. To do this the way that it has to be done it is going to cost money. Money to buy...oopps I mean lobby politicians. Money so LE can enforce the regulations (job creation). Money so unbiased researchers can get the data (job creation and research funds). Where is this money going to come from? Part of it should come from this industry. It is going to come from embracing the fact that this industry is COMMERCIAL. If you sell your offspring you are commercial. If you spend money to pursue your hobby you are commercial. All pet keepers spend money but if you reproduce or commerce in a species or product you are commercial. The other part of the money should come from the citizens of the US at large to pay for their impacts via roads, pollution and development.

Yes, for the most part talking on forums does nothing concrete. What it does is it allows us to educate the ignorant. It allows us to debate the issues and hopefully come to a concensus. It allows hypocrites to be exposed. You know who you are. Important strategies are not discussed on forums.

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

wstreps May 09, 2009 03:07 PM

( Since we haven't been regulating ourselves )

Who`s we ?

This might be to much information. But the word is Greenglass and Hall are turn coats . There's a rumor that the Soviets are trying to develop the bomb. Think about that !

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

OHI May 09, 2009 03:17 PM

n/p

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD May 09, 2009 12:56 AM

I was fortunate to know Archie Carr and in fact had dinner at his home. He also had Hawksbill Turtle kitchen utensiles but was the greatest turtle conservator the world has ever seen. Years ago I was a member of the IUCN Crocodile Specialist Group and we saved most of the worlds Crocodilians thru commercialization by private enterprise....Most crocs are no longer on the brink of extinction at least not because of poaching them....
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Joe Forks May 09, 2009 06:42 AM

>>The turtle banning agenda has been primarily driven by emotional pleas and unsubstantiated here-say.

Bayou Bob instigated those regs plain and simple. If you're going to feed those folks in china you need to do it with FARM RAISED turtles, not wild caught Turtles from Texas, DUH.

>>Lets' find the real root causes of diminished Turtle populations. Let's not make a Straw Man argument and blame/scapegoat those most interested in Chelonian survival.

The current regs were a good stop gap measure, not the end all solution. Your biggest enemy is Animal right folks. You need tons of money to fight those folks.

Most of the law makers are pretty smart folks and will listen to common sense and logic, but I'm not so sure you can say the same for the Game & Fish Agencies.

There are ways to get this done, but I'm going to give you guys some advice:

1) stop posting your plans and strategies on PUBLIC FORUMS because you are HURTING YOURSELVES more than you are helping.

2) get politically active. get off this freaking forum and GET TO KNOW SOME POLITICIANS.

3) SUPPORT the politicians you know, and LOBBY the ones you don't know.

I'm telling you AR groups are the number one enemy. If you can beat them and STOP making enemies within your own ranks then you can win.

But if you insist on harping on the same old inaccuracies in this forum no one will want to help you (when I say you, I am talking in general terms not YOU specifically).
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Site Tools