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Conservation Through Commercialization

OHI May 09, 2009 12:26 AM

All,

Many of you know I am not the inventor of that phrase. Tom Crutchfield was the one that came up with that. At least that is where I first heard it. Maybe Tom can explain the evolution of him using that phrase on his price lists.

I remember when I was running the Reptile Department at Central Florida Zoo and had gone to Tom's shop in Bushnell. He was telling me of his plan to buy all the known habitat for the recently re-discovered, thought to be extinct, Jamaican Iguana. It was known at the time that developers were trying to buy that land and the zoos hardly had funds to help the head start program on Jamaica. Tom approached Rick Hudson of Ft. Worth Zoo who was head of the Cyclura Working Group and told him that if he donated some hatchling Jamaican Iguanas, Tom could sell them to wealthy Japanese collectors and get enough money to buy the land. From what I remember Tom wasn't going to make a dime off the deal. At least that's what I remember. Tom said Rick wouldn't do it. I couldn't believe that Rick would risk the re-extinction of wild Jamaican Iguanas over a non-commercial stance. And this was during the time when I was pushing the banning agenda I was duped into following by my unwaivering goal to conserve herps at all costs no matter what (kinda like many academics and AR groups now). This got me thinking about how Conservation through Commercialization could work to benefit wild herps. Then I went on to work on my Bachelors in Wildlife Science and learned about sustainable harvest and wildlife management. I was also familiar with the use of Conservation through Commercialization and sustainable harvest from the way The Crocodile Specialists Group was being successful at crocodile conservation.

Hudson, Allison Alberts and the Cyclura group were able to get the funds to buy the land in the end. But what would have happened if they didn't? Maybe Tom can tell the story better but that is what I remember.

Commercializing in herps is the answer to herp conservation from the view of collecting, breeding and selling. People care about things that have a commercial value. Having a commercial value generates funds for conservation. Many people (including me at one time) scoffed at the idea that money has any place in conserving wildlife (it was what was killing the herps). After all herps are not commodities but intrinsic animals that have a value beyond the dollar. They are both but the capitalistic world we live in demands that they have a commercial value. Thus herps need to be conserved, managed, harvested, propagated and sold in a sustainable manner. Captive propagation makes more individuals thus perpetuating the species. Most folks don't give their offspring away so they are commercial. We need access to founder stock, new localities and new blood. We need to embrace the realities of this world and fight for what is right.

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

Replies (87)

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD May 09, 2009 12:49 AM

I, in fact coined the phrase and did suggest that regarding C. collei. I had NO intent on making a dime but was told THAT YOU CAN NOT COMMERCIALIZE AN ENDANGERED SPECIES. It's late but tommorrow I'll go into more detail on this.....
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

OHI May 09, 2009 02:16 AM

n/p

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD May 09, 2009 07:19 AM

I coined the phrase "CONSERVATION THROUGH COMMERCIALIZATION" by listening to Dr. Perron Ross and Dr. Wayne King of the IUCN Crocodile Specialist Group of which I was a member. They advocated Crocodile Conservation by captive breeding and sales of skin and meat to pay for it all. Crocodile Farmers world wide have single-handedly pulled crocs back from the brink of extinction in this way. If endangered reptiles were given to the private sector and allowed to be openly traded in a very short time they wouldn't be rare at all. I could single handedly produce hundreds of any species of Cyclura here of which many types are found on a single small cay or cayes. There are NONE in captivity of many races and they wait their lives out waiting for a storm to extinguish their existance forever. All were extirpated from the mainland areas because they were killed and eaten by natives. The cayes are at a lower elevation and could easily be detroyed by the right storm surge. I would do this for nothing and just provide the species a stronghold and save them. Alas, it would be a definitely NO-NO because I'm not a Phd nor a Zoo but I've bred more Cyclura than anybody or any Zoo. They should give Geochelone ynifera to private breeders and shortly they would become common. ALL OF THIS COULD BE ACCOMPLISHED BY US WITHOUT PUBLIC FUNDING...I guarantee you this would be frowned at by the powers that be but in particularly the AZA because people like me make them look bad.....
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Joe Forks May 09, 2009 01:15 PM

Tom is a smart cookie, but for those that couldn't understand his post, the basis is BREEDING AND FARMING, not raping, pillaging and selling wild caught.

Carry on....
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Jaykis May 09, 2009 01:47 PM

I think Tom will agreee, but that's basically what happened to the alligator.

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD May 09, 2009 02:38 PM

Yup,when the state made it legal to farm them and sell them that ENDED THE POACHING FOREVER. Today the Alligator is one of the more common wild herps here in Florida and it's all due to Alligator Farmers.....
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Joe Forks May 09, 2009 03:20 PM

>>Yup,when the state made it legal to farm them and sell them that ENDED THE POACHING FOREVER. Today the Alligator is one of the more common wild herps here in Florida and it's all due to Alligator Farmers.....
>>-----
>>Tom Crutchfield
>>www.tomcrutchfield.com

Yup, and we like eat Alligator tail too. It tastes damn good IMO.
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

obeligz May 09, 2009 03:55 PM

How do you guys prepare your crocs?

Any dishes to reccomend?
I havenīt tasted gator meat yet, but I know of a place that sells the stuff. Itīs expensive too! around 300NOK (47USD) per kilo (2.2 pounds). At that rate I wouldnīt want to mess up my gator steak.

Also, how are gators best served, with potatoes or tomatoes?

Regards
oby

Joe Forks May 09, 2009 04:01 PM

I only had it once in Florida, but it was battered and deep fried.
and again, it was damn good.
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

emysbreeder May 09, 2009 04:46 PM

Thats right and before the farming came to be the Federal laws didn't really save any animals because "the demand was still there."So skins for boots belts etc were made from S.American Caimans instead, and the killing went on as did the self congradulations of the anointed gooroos of wildlife who still clame to this day it was the Federal Law that saved them.Vic

OHI May 09, 2009 02:26 PM

Joe,

You are correct but this takes wild caught to start with and this country and planet operate in the capitalistic system. Most of the crocodile programs, including the American alligator, still harvest eggs from the wild. Most herp species are not bred in captivity so wild harvest and sales is still needed. We can stop the harvest of gray-bands and ball pythons if you want. People also want certain localities and not everyone has the funds, time or knowledge to collect them themselves. Also many times specimens are needed NOW not in a couple years when they are captively bred and raised up. And finally, with sustainable harvest herps can be harvested indefinitely and it doesn't matter what you do with the animals after they are harvested.

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD May 09, 2009 02:58 PM

Reproductive strategies in animals are one of two things. One is they produce quantities of offspring of which few survive to reproduce and become food for other organisms or few offspring are produced with a high survival rate. Most reptiles including crocodilians adhere to the former strategy of producing lots of babies with low survival rates. It has been proven that you can harvest 50% of all eggs and babies in a wetland and it neither increases or decreases the population. Remember the mortality rate on wild baby gators is about 80%. Landowners are allowed to harvest a finite number of adult alligators, eggs, and babies in wetland areas based on population censuses conducted by the state alligator researchers. This encourages large landowners to NOT sell their land for development and gives them a way to offset the tax structure by income earned by harvest of wild alligators and eggs. Florida has set a high standard in terms of sustainable use of the wild alligator populations. There are many instances of things like this happening all over the world. In W. Africa for instance because the baby Ball Pythons are ranched by the local people in that they capture gravid females and wait for them to lay eggs to sell to us. After egglaying the lg females are carefully released in the same spot so that they can be caught next year. In years past ALL PYTHONS were killed for their skins upon discovery. In spite of the mass exports Ball Pythons are doing well because they bring income to the native people and are NOT killed. It is when you kill the adult breeders that the population drops in numbers. Most baby herps could be harvested with little or no impact on the population at large...FOOD FOR THOUGHT...I'VE BEEN PREACHING THIS FOR YEARS AND MOST DON'T GET IT.....
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Joe Forks May 09, 2009 03:30 PM

I'VE BEEN PREACHING THIS FOR YEARS AND MOST DON'T GET IT.....

Some are catching on..... Indo is farming Bloods and Chondros, There are farms in Bluefield, and tons of reptile farms I don't know about. You probably are aware of 100's more that I am not aware of.

I do know the business model and it's win win win win - keepers, dealers, locals, and animals all WIN - you still get locality blood if you want it.
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

obeligz May 09, 2009 03:47 PM

Joe
I thought that the Herp Conservation Unlimited was against wild caught animals?

And Tom, if you collect 50% of the alligator eggs, doesnīt that mean that big birds, fishes and cats will have 50% less food to eat?

regards
oby

Joe Forks May 09, 2009 03:59 PM

Not exactly, this is our policy statement - you can make your own interpretation

quote:

Resolution 2: HCU does not support the collection of any reptile or amphibian from the wild for the purposes of sale, including, but not limited to, the wholesale commercial collection of turtles for food markets and similar trade in rattlesnake skins, meat, and organs.

This is the resolution that get's certain commercial collectors / poachers panties in a wad.

Forky
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

obeligz May 09, 2009 09:35 PM

Resolution 2: HCU does not support the collection of any reptile or amphibian from the wild for the purposes of sale, including, but not limited to, the wholesale commercial collection of turtles for food markets and similar trade in rattlesnake skins, meat, and organs.

This is the resolution that get's certain commercial collectors / poachers panties in a wad.

Panties in a wad, yes..

I was thinking more like.. well.. reptiles and amphibians are solar powered, and they do use alot less energy to sustain themselves as opposed to mammals who are endotherm, and have to invest a lot of energy in order to maintain a preferred body temperature.
So essentially, a cow would have to eat a lot more grass than an iguana to produce a pound of meat. I am no genious in biology, in fact I even lack a bachelor in that field, or any field for that matter. Still, a cow does have to maintain a very steady mammalian bodyheat while the iguana recieves itīs heat directly from the environment, s the cow must be using more anergy than the iguana to produce a pound of meat, right? From this perspective it would seem more environmentally friendly to switch our base diet from cows to iguanas, wouldnīt you agree?
Whether cows and iguanas are farmed or hunted sustainably from the wild doesnīt really make much of a difference from this stand, the cows, or buffalos, or zebras or whatever mammales will still have used more recources than the reptilians, who are a more energy-efficient organism.
Further, many herptilians feed on alternative food sources than vegetation. Many of them eat insects and other pests that would otherwise harm the same vegetation which is used to feed domestic cattle? for these reasons I regard your second resolution a little absurd.

I donīt understand how you as the functioning spokesman for the HCU advocate no commercial harvesting of herptiles. Since you donīt support commercial harvest of wils reptiles and amphibians, do you support wild harvest of any kind of mammals?

There are other parts about your organization I find more puzzling though..
For starters, I donīt like your logo, I think USark has a much nicer one.
Secondly, the links section hardly contains any links. One would think that dealers, breeders, hobbyists and government bodies alike would like, or really crave, to have a link on your site, but links section is almost completely empty, why is that?
Third, your forum is mostly inactive. If you in 4 years have not achieved any hardly any forum activity, then what good is your organization?
the HCU was founded same year as reptilweb, the smallest norwegian reptile forum. Norway is a small country with some 4.5 million inhabitants in total. In Comparison the US is a vast giant!

The HCU forum has;
Total Messages: 1632 Total Subjects: 339
In comparison Reptilweb has
Total Messages: 27100 • Total Subjects: 3149
One should perhaps expect the opposite in these figures, seen that reptilweb is the smallest reptile forum in a tiny winy country where reptile keeping has been illegal for the past three decades, no?

In my opinion the HCU has failed miserably in reaching out to the general public of herpetoculturists. How can you change peoples opinion and conduct, when you do not reach out to them, and they do not show any interest in listening to you?

But, you have been collecting donations, yes? how much? small pile of money? big pile of money? Which brings me back to my next question, what have you done for conservation lately?

Back to your constitution;
"Article 4: Meetings of HCU shall be held annually, and (a) may be held as stand-alone meetings or
(b) may be held in conjunction with the meetings of Subsidiary, Affiliate, or Partner organizations.
(c) should be announced in the Quarterly Newsletter at least 6 months prior to the date of the meeting."

I canīt find any trace of these meetings on your website, are they secret?

"Section 3: Policy Statements of HCU
(a) shall reflect positions taken in regards to current political and societal events concerning reptiles and amphibians
(b) and while the Executive Board is encouraged to consult the voting and Affiliate membership
(c) may be made solely at the discretion of the Executive Board of Officers"

Secret meetings, closed forum for members only and the real important decisions are made hush-hush in the background I take?

Article 5;

"Section 2: Resolutions of HCU
(a) shall reflect statements of principal under which HCU operates (b) shall be listed in the text of the Constitution of HCU
(c) may be proposed by any voting member
(d) and shall be enacted with a 2/3 majority vote of ballots received"

Could you please define what you mean by "statements of principal", and point to any source of these which is publicly available on your site?
Mr. Forks, when everything is going on in the background in your organization, and there is no news coming in, no conservation initiatives published and no reference to what exactly happens with the donation money which is coming in, how do you expect the terrarium-folks to trust your organization, and live by itīs principles?

Kind regards
obeligz
vivarium consultant, reptilweb, REXANO
Image

Joe Forks May 09, 2009 09:54 PM

We are a state organization, not national nor international. We do not wish to conduct business on this or any other forum.

It is is not up to you to decide if we have failed or if we succeed. Only members have a say in how we run our organization. Our agenda just that, our agenda.
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

obeligz May 09, 2009 10:06 PM

ok ok, donīt get all fired up..

I was just teasing you a bit.
A failure you clearly are not, for your organization is alive and well, agreed?
As for your agenda, I respect it, but I also hope you will answer my questions.

You came forth and put an end to our lovely back stabbing festival, and you are the spokesman for your organization. You participate in this thread, so clearly you have some unfinished business here? Other forums I donīt know about...

Peace
oby

brhaco May 09, 2009 10:14 PM

Oby, as a member of HCU (not an officer), I can assure you that the general membership of our organization is very happy with the progress of the HCU agenda here in Texas. Very happy indeed.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

obeligz May 09, 2009 10:19 PM

The norwegian population at large is also quite happy with snakes being illegal, but the norwegian reptile nation is suffering from very bad decision making none the less.

How many members (including officers does the HCO have exactly?

Regards
oby

brhaco May 09, 2009 10:31 PM

Oby-

No offense, but I'm not sure we in the U.S. should take your advice seriously, given your track record in your home country?

Nonetheless, I DO find your posts entertaining
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

obeligz May 09, 2009 10:45 PM

None taken friend, Iīm just a redneck gecko farmer from across the pond swinging with you in friendly debate.
You make very good partner in debate! I love kingsnake. :D
Back home the AR nuts are a stiff and timid type, they just donīt want to talk to me, but here on kingsnake you really have passion! I guess thereīs more money to be made in the AR-US-department, eh?

How many members (including officers) does the HCO have exactly?
You are a member, you must have this information. If it is not secret, please share the number.

Regards
oby

brhaco May 09, 2009 10:54 PM

That info is not mine to give-any information about HCU that is not included on the public website might conceivably be of use to our political opponents. I don't think it would do any harm to say that membership is "over a hundred"

If you want the exact figure, you're welcome to join up!
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

obeligz May 09, 2009 11:41 PM

Hmm..
"any information about HCU that is not included on the public website might conceivably be of use to our political opponents."

But.. there is hardly any information included on your public website. Aside from your memorandum. What have you been doing for the past 4 years?
What do you have to show for the funds that you have gathered as a cheritable organization?
Any specific projects?

Regards
oby

brhaco May 10, 2009 12:00 AM

Significant progress has ben made on several issues important to herpers here in Texas-if you join you will be surprised what you learn. Might even help you in your home country...
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

obeligz May 10, 2009 12:10 AM

"several issues important to herpers"
Would you care to elaborate on that, pretty please.

Kindest regards
obeligz

jpenney May 10, 2009 03:00 AM

>>"several issues important to herpers"
>>Would you care to elaborate on that, pretty please.
>>
>>Kindest regards
>>obeligz

Not that we have to justify anything we do or don't do to non-members but since you asked, see the link below. We're working on many fronts. We have even been to the capitol as a group and testified on herpers' behalf. Bottom line is Oby, none of us get paid for the work we do. We do it because someday your kids or our kids may want to do a little herping in Texas. We want to preserve that tradition. Our critics fortunately are limited to a couple of conspiracy nuts and those who would rape the country side of its herps to make a buck. What they (and apparently you) do not understand is we're not fighting against them, we're just not fighting FOR them. If you guys want to fight for your right to catch and sell wild caught herps, be my guest.
Like Joe said, we're not vocal on these forums as to specifics of what we do because those who fight us, read these forums. Anything that we post that they can use against us, they will (and have). THAT is the reason for the secrecy, nothing more. No apologies will be offered. Rather than come on here and declare a group a "miserable failure" when you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, try and talk to those in HCU and find out whats going on.
When we were fighting for our rights down here in TX two years ago, we made phone calls to all the so called herper friendly groups out there and got squat for help; yes, your association included. So several herpers in Texas figured if we wanted it done right, we'll do it ourselves. HCU's hard work is paying off despite the lack of help from the national orgs. We'd like everyone on board to help but these types of posts such as yours and other un-named folks out there do nothing to help. So if you don't want to be part of the solution, butt out and we'll handle our own business. If you wish to help, trust me, we'd be glad to have you and welcome you with open arms.
If you have any questions, comment, or complaints email me and I'll be glad to discuss it with you.
Jason
HB 1500

-----
HCU
Snakes of Hudspeth County, Texas

Jaykis May 10, 2009 10:07 AM

If they told you that info, they'd have to kill you.

obeligz May 10, 2009 11:18 AM

Kill me?
so you guys are running a secret organization of assasins then?
Please donīt kill me, I have feelings too!

Regards
oby

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD May 10, 2009 11:39 AM

OBY, I ENJOY YOUR POST BUT I THINK YOUR PULLING OUR LEG A LITTLE BIT. I MEAN, COME ON, TAKING CROCS OUT FOR A VACATION, PLAYING THE DEVIL'S ADVOCATE, AND SOME IF NOT MOST OF YOUR POST MAKE LITTLE SENSE. EXACTLY WHERE DO YOU STAND? SOMETIMES IT SEEMS YOU HATE THE AR IDIOTS AND OTHER TIMES I THINK YOU MIGHT BE ONE. MAYBE IT'S JUST ME. YOU TALK ABOUT RESPONSIBLE HERPERS AND INDICATE YOU WERE AND ARE AND THEN TELL US THE CROC STORY OR WAS THAT A CROC? PLEASE ADVISE US BUT ANYWAY YOU ARE AMUSING TO SAY THE LEAST....
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

obeligz May 10, 2009 12:30 PM

Well Tom, I guess, If you take a croc out of itīs small cage and put it in a bigger better cage for a while, wouldnīt that count as a vacation you think?
I stand on my own two feet I think, I try to think independently, same as you I suppose. I follow the debate and see what turns out of it. Then I make up my mind, and form an oppinion.
I think you are probably right in defining me as an AR idiot, since I do believe that animals have rights. In that sense I am really an AR activist I suppose. Supposedly Iīm out to get a piece of my own ass, chasing my tail, so to speak.. ^_^

Are you an AR activist Tom? These days itīs really hard to tell the difference in some folks I think..

Kind regards
oby

obeligz May 10, 2009 12:43 PM

I think i may be rabid, but it is my oppinion that all people who fight for the rights of their animals are AR activists. So really, the funds of the PETA, HSUS and other similar organizations, funds and property should belong to the AR activists who are fighting for their animals, not the ones who seek to extict captive animals on behalf of wild ones.
So I really believe there are two types of AR ativists, which one of them are you then?

I am kidding!
Making funnymerryjoke. ^_^
best wishes
oby

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD May 10, 2009 12:50 PM

SEE YOUR PULLING OUR LEG AGAIN...
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

obeligz May 10, 2009 01:27 PM

But in the true faith of an AR actvist, my further thoughts regarding animal rights shall be my secret, until we can get some more answers from the people around us in our herpetocultural comunity.

I am really happy to see that there is a strong and genuine interest in the US herpetocultural community, to resolve the issues clouding todays responsible husbandry and sustainable management and development of natural recources.

If things continue this was, pretty soon I may be on my way to get me some croc steak. But somehow, I doubt it... empirical reccord suggests the opposite.

regards
obeligz
vivarium consultant, reptilweb, REXANO

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD May 10, 2009 12:48 PM

I can assure you I am not and neither are you. Your leg was pulled as ours have been. So, your not joking about the croc or pulling our leg as we say in slang? As I've said I really enjoy your post although I have some problems understanding what you really mean. By the way if you have been in the Herp Industry vey long even in Europe you wouldn't have to ask about me as my stance is known world wide and has been known for almost 40 years....
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Joe Forks May 10, 2009 04:57 PM

>>Are you an AR activist Tom? These days itīs really hard to tell the difference in some folks I think..

hahahahaha NO he's NOT omg Oby
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Jaykis May 14, 2009 10:14 AM

is to be tasty

For those religious folks out there, I believe the bible says that man has dominion over the animals.

So.....fried or grilled????

wstreps May 10, 2009 08:44 AM

I`m not sure that's really a fair assessment. Norway is a small place the total population might be less then one US city. Its much easier for one group to impose their will. In a place like that minority groups are very small. In the US minority groups equal millions of people.

In the United States there's 300 million people and at least half are citizens. It should be next to impossible for one group to completely impose their ideas on everybody. It should never happen. Has the constitution been changed from we the people to we the lobbyist ?

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

brhaco May 10, 2009 09:05 AM

No worries, Ernie-I was just poking a little fun at Oby....

I'm sure that pilfering a crocodilian from a public institution made sense at the time
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

obeligz May 10, 2009 10:47 AM

sad sad
Acutally it did mate, still does mate.
After I joined up kingsnake earlier last month more lose herps have been found in the streets in norway than in a long while.
Even, a week ago, one of the crocks in the cage next to the one I took out on vacation last year, It climbed out of itīs cage and went rampaging through a group of kindergarten children mate! What do you think of that? one kid even says it got bitten in the foot, a 5 yr old visitor to the Bergen Aquarium Zoo.
When I napped that cayman last year one of my main points was that the security was so low that the animals really were not well secured at all. Well, this year I guess the crocks donīt wait for me to give them any vacations, they take their own leave it seems..

ttp://www.vg.no/nyheter/utrolige-histo ... tid=562672

http://www.bt.no/lokalt/article841336.ece

http://www.ba.no/nyheter/dyr/article4307769.ece

"Untfortunately we underestimated the crocs ability to climb, but I can guarantee that we now do everything to prevent this from happening again, says he." (he, the Aquarium Director, Kees Ekeli.
"The director also assures that this is the first time one of the crocs come out in this manner"

In my opinion though, certain security measures at the bergen aqarium are still inadequate. Even though they have improved some, thereīs still some room for improvement I think.

In the pic below, Vera (6 yrs, to left) and Guri (5) sat where the loose crocodile showed up. Here they are given an apology from Kees Oscar Ekeli, the Director

Regards
oby
Image

Joe Forks May 10, 2009 02:10 PM

go big or go home.... next time try riding a rhino right out into the street. Saddle up!
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

obeligz May 10, 2009 03:13 PM

What in the name of the hanging paludarium witih a variable water level are you talking about?
Put your money where your mouth is, in argumentation.
I answered your questions, would you care to answer mine earlier in this thread?

fyi, the hanging paludarium with variable water level came to be hanged, because the bottom cracked 13-fold.
So I had to stop a lot of leaks for a certain while, and in the end the wooden floor got destroyed, so I was thinking...
the terra weighs in at around 250 kg with water in it, without water half that, on the picture there is low water level, ca. 10 cm. anyways..
The floor is destroyed and I donīt have money to fix it right now, so I hanged the damn thing. That way I can work the problem from both directions and I can use as much time as I need.
It wonīt come crashing down or anything and I have had time to stop the leaks, now I can work on the floor.
Where does that leave us?
I can explain full out the thoughts and philosophies behind the hanging paludarium, where my frogs have a right to claim dominion over any hole or plant and animal they can keep.
I donīt see any progress in the down to earth, reasonable part f this debate.
Where we address each other more kindly, respectfully and honestly.
You are the spokesman for the HCU Mr Forks, in good and bad, and one could say you have a moral duty to defend the interests of your organization, yet you stray from giving answeres and hide behind secrecy.
What is the total amont of money your non-profit organization has gathered?

Kind regards
oby

Joe Forks May 10, 2009 04:26 PM

put the bong down Oby. Could you repeat the question?
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

antelope May 10, 2009 04:37 PM

YEEEEEHAA!!!!!!!!
-----
Todd Hughes

obeligz May 10, 2009 04:41 PM

funny funny. ^_^

obeligz May 10, 2009 02:16 PM

Thank you Ernie.
That just makes me think about poor Iceland.
I mean, they are 300.000 citizens, An independent nation, but norwegians by origin?
Ernie, friend, if you think that you and the reptile nation are suffering under the punishment of the AR industry, concider what chances Icelandic reptile owners stood against their puny AR organization, which had the US Mammoths of PETA & HSUS in the back? I do assure you that these two are national organizations with a certain international out-reach, or international terrorism, if you will. :P
But still, these two organizations have many more affiliates and cooperation partners in the US...
Btw, are you a member of the HCU?

Regards
oby

wstreps May 10, 2009 06:56 PM

No the HCU is a Texas club. I live in Florida. I'm not member of any organization for personal reasons. For me to explain these reasons in detail I would have to violate KS terms of service. So rather then tell half the story I won't say anything about why I took this position.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

antelope May 10, 2009 02:09 AM

Indeed.
-----
Todd Hughes

antelope May 10, 2009 02:18 AM

We are very pleased with HCU-TX! Oby, how many herps have you relocated in the last 4 years? How many herps have you donated to museums, zoos, or other places of higher learning? There are many ways to help conserve herps. if you are working with a species that is difficult to breed or care for, you are helping conserve herps, IF your offspring are helping a gene pool somewhere...

-----
Todd Hughes

obeligz May 10, 2009 05:12 AM

I have donated my whole collection to Oslo Reptile Park (Oslo Zoo), I was forced to.
That was really the spark of reptilweb for me. So, you may say I donated more than 30 animals and at least as many eggs to the good authorities right from the start of reptilweb.
Normally our good authorities throw confiscated animals in the freezer but In my case I made aloot of fuss. I appealed to every reptile site I could find I think.
I even made a lot of appeals on kingsnake, and I received a lot of help from this site..
anyways, because of all the fuss, some of my animals being rare and such, those of my animals who survived, were relocated to Oslo Reptile Park, the rest died because the district veterinaryīs office couldnīt take care of them. They canīt breed fruitflies for [bleep], so most of the my mourning geckoes dropped down from hunger or dehydration at the district vetīs office.
After this precedent, confiscated reptiles in norway were more often relocated to zoos.
Later, but still more or less right from the start, as we grew to a couple hundred members, reptilweb opened itīs own channel for relocation of animals without compensation.
We had some problems in the start, cuz ppl wanted to trade on our site but we couldnīt allow that cuz weīre running on a norwegian server and we canīt allow the police to close us down...
Still, we were able to start up our relocation program. By now we have volunteres in and around most of the bigger cities of norway, so you can say we cover a large area. When herps get lost and someone finds them, they are sometimes sent to us for relocation.
Also sometimes we discover irresponsible reptile owners, we often end up relocating their animals too, not by force, but by talking calmly, no mafia tactics..
Most often we relocate turtles, red eared and yellow eared terrapins, they are common and shep and very roust, so they are very popular in Norway it seems
but we also relocate other reptiles and amphibians.
Some people get a guilty conscience after keeping reptiles for a while, so they just want to relocate them to a good home, where the animals will have a good owner who is not going to pass them on in a year or two, or kill them in attempt to keep them alive.
some people donīt have time for their animals anymore, and relocate them for that reason.
In breif, there are alot of reasons why herps need relocation, so we relocate them for lots of different reasons.
During the past 4 years, we have successfully relocated hundreds of animals, Not often but occsionally we have also relocated more problematic species like big venomous snakes and baby crocs. Animals which we can not relocate in norway, or which we donīt want to relocate to norwegian owners (venomous snakes and such) we relocate to zoos right across the swedish border.
In the past 3 decades, "many" norwegians have moved across the border over to Sweden, to keep their reptile hobby in peace, I call them reptile-refugees. Some of these have opened up zoos on the other side of the border, whenever we got animals we canīt find a home for, we can send to zoos in sweden. We also have excellent relations and an active cooperation with Oslo Reptile Park, some of our members even work there and the owner is a rare but regular participant in our forum, he one of our honorary members.
We also a liaison at the National veterinary association.
We have a liaison to the pet industry ethics division, the pet industry main office and we have participated in conferences pertaining to legislation in herpetoculture.
We have a marine biologist on our team and we have a genuine herpetologist in the making, he just needs to finish his education first.
We have focused heavily on education and good ethics in herpetoculture. But what is good ethics in terrarium keeping? Well, we didnīt have a secret group of specialists who could solve all the problems on our behalf so we just engaged each other as vikings confronting each others ethics in friendly open forum fight until we had a basis to work from. Our position statements are based on debates on our site, therefore it is also easy to find the reasons and premises we build our arguments on.
We also keep an eye out in mostly all newspapers in norway who publish stories about reptiles and we try to stand up in the media the AR spit on us and make fun of us in the newspapers.
In addition to that we also participate internationally. I normaly donīt come our of norwegian forums much but I do moitor the pulse at certain reptile sites (mostly the good guys) and sometimes we come out of our little shell to join the fight interntionally, bevause we do care about conservation international, PIJAC and select other organizations.

I am trying hard to make up my mind regarding the HCU but unfortunately there really isnīt much to judge your organization by, I respect your right to be a secret organisazion, but when you are a non profit conservation organization you should have some conservation initiatives to show for.
Now, I have deactibed the activities of reptilweb and commented on some of the (limited) ways in which we help conservation.
I hope you will share with me the conservation initiatives of the HCU, for instance, how many animals has HCU relocated? Texas is a big state, almost 6 times as big as Norway.

How many herps have you donated to museums, zoos, or other places of higher learning?

regards
obeligz
Vivarium consltant. reptilweb, rexano

TexasReptiles May 10, 2009 08:17 AM

Oby,
Sorry, but the HCU is a highly secret organization, and we only give out member numbers to those who wear our Secret Decoder ring.
To become a member however, you must join HCU, and shortly you will recieve your own Secret Decoder ring and password greeting when meeting an HCU member.
We also have a secret handshake when greeting a fellow member.
Hope this helps!

Randal Berry

brhaco May 10, 2009 08:28 AM

New members also get the location of our secret underground headquarters!
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

swiss May 10, 2009 11:38 AM

Do members get full disclosure of prime grayband localities? And if captured or sequestered by an opponent, are cyanide pills provided? If so, sign me up.....

Swiss

Joe Forks May 10, 2009 02:12 PM

>>Do members get full disclosure of prime grayband localities? And if captured or sequestered by an opponent, are cyanide pills provided? If so, sign me up.....
>>
>>Swiss

Gray-bands are for neophytes, just ask Bern Tryon.
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

obeligz May 10, 2009 11:48 AM

"New members also get the location of our secret underground headquarters!"
I think you guys may have the key to the secret mystery who has been giving us all a headache and been threatening our animals recently.

It is only in the past 4 years that the US reptile nation has been hit in the head full out with stupid legislation. How can we trust that your secret organization is working for and not against the reptile nation? when there is at least some circumstantial evidence that yours, may be an AR activist-harbouring organization?

kind regards
oby

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD May 10, 2009 01:00 PM

Personally I think Randal is a PETA spy raised from childhood on a diet of beer and smokes just so he could infiltrate and detroy us. Randal has been specially trained by Dobermans in the martial arts so if he's discovered he can fight his way out. If that fails and he is captured he always carries an ASP to let bite him on his breast so he won't give up PETA'S secrets under torture [like being forced to eat meat]. Aha, I knew this, thank you Oby for confirming my theory....I also believe Brad Chambers and Joe Fork are Randal's handlers...Now it all makes sense...
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

TexasReptiles May 10, 2009 01:24 PM

DAMN! The secrets out!
AARRRRGGGGHHHH!

Joe Forks May 10, 2009 02:09 PM

It's amazing what Randall will do for a few shiner bocks.
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

obeligz May 10, 2009 03:41 PM

Will you help us Joseph?
Really, you are not the central puppet in this..
In reality we have bigger creep to fry, we erpetoculturists are on the hunt for the dinosaurs it seems.
Would you care to join in on the good hunt?
This is after all, our hunt for sustainability...

Rregards
obeligz

Joe Forks May 10, 2009 04:37 PM

Oby I'm not sure but you might be beyond reprise....
BTW I know how to find Dinosaurs too..


-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

keown May 10, 2009 02:40 PM

Have you heard about the latest HCU security leak....you know the one about oby really being an HCU undercover agent sent to Norway on a secret special mission make contact with with two other secret agents from PETA and HSUS to wreak havoc on the the herpetological and herpetocultural communities all across Europe. Sure hope this does not leak out in Europe because it it does oby might have to go into hiding or flee to Asia stowed away in shipment of fresh caught turtles.

OHI May 10, 2009 02:46 PM

Somebody called in the entire army. When will we hear from Benton, Owens, and Howell? Let't not forget Daimen and where is Troy?

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

antelope May 10, 2009 04:47 PM

working hard to cover even YOUR butt!
-----
Todd Hughes

OHI May 10, 2009 04:57 PM

Todd,

I wrote a sincere post above and I do support HCU on over turning the road ban.

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

antelope May 10, 2009 05:37 PM

All the extra b.s. nullifies the attaboy, dontcha think?
-----
Todd Hughes

obeligz May 10, 2009 05:49 PM

letīs chew on these thoughts for a week..
getting late over here and thereīs the work in the morning so time to be getting some sleep for me.
Anyways, This weekend has been most amusing to debate on kingsnake, and also the reptile radio was smoking hot.
As the dust from the mud slinging contest clears through the start of next week I wonder what will come out of this..
Also looking forward to reptile radio next weekend.

Wishing every one a nice evening and a good start of the new week.
Regards
oby

Aaron May 10, 2009 11:31 PM

>>While you do have to be a member to read the forum, anyone could see this on the home page:

Friday, 06 March 2009
IMPORTANT NOTICE:

House Bill 1500 which was filed by State Representative Tracy King and co-authored by State Representative Joe Farias on behalf of Herp Conservation Unlimited (H.C.U.) and all persons involved in herpetology in Texas is scheduled for a hearing before the House Culture, Recreation, & Tourism Committee at 2:00 PM on Tuesday, March 10, 2009.

>>And here is the text of the bill, which is also available for anyone to see at:
http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/tlodocs/81R/billtext/pdf/HB01500I.pdf

By:AAKing of Zavala H.B.ANo.A1500
A BILL TO BE ENTITLED
AN ACT
relating to certain exceptions to the prohibition on hunting from a
public road or right-of-way.
BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF TEXAS:
SECTION 1. Section 62.0031(b), Parks and Wildlife Code, is
amended to read as follows:
(b)This section does not apply to:
(1)the trapping of a raptor for educational or
sporting purposes as provided by Chapter 49; or
(2)the capture, trapping, or hunting of a reptile,
amphibian, or insect.
SECTIONA2. Conduct prohibited by Section 62.0031, Parks and
Wildlife Code, that involves the capture, trapping, or hunting of a
reptile, amphibian, or insect may not be prosecuted after the
effective date of this Act. If on the effective date of this Act a
criminal action is pending for conduct prohibited by Section
62.0031 and described by this section, the action is dismissed on
that date. However, a final conviction for conduct prohibited by
Section 62.0031 and described by this section that exists on the
effective date of this Act is unaffected by this Act.
SECTIONA3.AAThis Act takes effect immediately if it receives
a vote of two-thirds of all the members elected to each house, as
provided by Section 39, Article III, Texas Constitution. If this
Act does not receive the vote necessary for immediate effect, this Act takes effect September 1, 2009.

>>So as you can see, we are working to get herpers back on the road and gain back the freedom that was lost. We are not "pushing an AR agenda" at all.

antelope May 10, 2009 04:44 PM

SSSSHHHHHHHHH! I cannot be seen in my superherper outfit!!!
-----
Todd Hughes

Jaykis May 10, 2009 10:10 AM

How many reptiles are native to Norway?

obeligz May 10, 2009 11:35 AM

native reptiles as in, born in Norway? well...
Actually I donīt know exactly and there is no way to know really..
With herps being illegal itīs hard to count them really...
They are underground organisms, hard to our public eye to see..
The pet industry association did a rough estimate in 2000, based on sales of dead rats and live crickets sold by pets hops but since most people breed their own feeder animals, as to not be seen as easily by the general public and the pet industry, itīs impossible to know, you feel me?
Personally I think somewhere around 100.000, but the number may be twice as hard really.
We also have wild native reptiles and amphibians (around 10 species in total) but I donīt know how many of them are out there ut there, millions Iīm sure.
How come?

oby

Below, Vipera berus from the norwegian herpetological accociations field trip, Salamandersunday 2008.
Image

TexasReptiles May 10, 2009 12:43 PM

I LOVE how the norweigans handle hot snakes Oby!

Randal

TexasReptiles May 10, 2009 01:27 PM

I also notice in the picture the snake handler is NOT wearing the Secret Decoder ring!
Shame!

obeligz May 10, 2009 01:57 PM

what is a secret decoder ring?

OHI May 10, 2009 02:52 PM

Oby,

Oby meet HCU and HCU meet Oby.

You hurt their feelings. You will pay!

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

obeligz May 10, 2009 03:32 PM

Hello friends, Iīm oby, but, I donīt have any money.
I am sorry I am poor, see?
Iīm not even a HCU member, why should I pay to Thee?
Iīm just minding my own underground reptilebuisness back in Norway. I donīt mean any harm to you, Iīm just seeking to legalize reptiles in my own country.

Kind regards
oby

antelope May 10, 2009 04:49 PM

Oby doesn't hurt our feelings, we don't have any except for the passion true blooded Texans bring to the fight!!!
-----
Todd Hughes

Joe Forks May 10, 2009 02:08 PM

>>I also notice in the picture the snake handler is NOT wearing the Secret Decoder ring!
>>Shame!

or shoes?
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

obeligz May 10, 2009 02:19 PM

n/p

TexasReptiles May 10, 2009 02:32 PM

ah, hahahahahahahahaha! I got that!
Only in Austin!

Joe Forks May 10, 2009 04:45 PM

>>ah, hahahahahahahahaha! I got that!
>>Only in Austin!

Maybe Fred Antonio can shed some light on this magnificent keeper LMAO
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

OHI May 10, 2009 05:06 PM

Speaking of Fred he is leaving CFZP and is going to be Director of the captive breeding facility at Project Orianne, the eastern indigo re-introduction project which is run by my buddy Chris Jenkins.

Welkerii
El Paso, TX

antelope May 10, 2009 11:59 PM

I wouldn't consider being forced to give up your collection to the authorities donating. but hey, I am sorry that they killed some of your herps. No one should have that happen, and it happens more often than people think. Most places are not informed enough to properly care for herps, not trained, and probably see it as a job, not like an enthusiast would. But I am speaking about doing presentations for kids, the elderly, for working groups that need the info on reptile identification, such as utility workers, fire fighters, and police. Also, donating road killed specimens or specimens that have lived their life out in your collection, for the furtherance of science, so that students may see what the animal looks like. Many people do not get out in the field, so how are they going to know about these animals unless we take the time to teach them. We have an obligation to share our knowledge with the world, for those who want to learn, and we should not be stifled in that quest. If some people don't want to learn, let them be ignorant, but let's not let them dictate what is important. no one has the right to take away knowledge that is of benefit to others. Oby, you crack me up!
-----
Todd Hughes

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD May 09, 2009 08:49 PM

They certainly have 50% less alligators to eat but fortunately their diet consist of more than alligators...
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Jaykis May 10, 2009 10:04 AM

Boelens pythons are also being farmed.

TexasReptiles May 10, 2009 12:46 PM

Jaykis,
Where are they being farmed?

Randal

swiss May 09, 2009 07:24 PM

You know, I was going to post a message about "conservation through commercialization" about a week ago but decided not to for one reason or another. I certainly remember Tom's pricelists with the banner at the top/bottom. I also certainly believe in it.

Last night, a ten minute airing on 20/20 featured a man who was the head of a group called PERC (www.perc.org)followed the same
philosophy, except their catch phrase is "improving environmental quality through markets". John Stossel was giving the interview and I again thought back to "conservation through commercialization". They pointed out how some of the larger African land mammals have actually started to make a comeback when there is a commercial incentive for the local people.
John then interviewed a woman who was the spokesperson/head of conservation international who flatly refused to believe in that type of strategy even when it was pointed out that CI's programs have had some dismal failures with their own approach (in the
case of trying to save tigers). It is so frustrating to see an approachable and potentially successful strategy, only to have it blindly dismissed by people who are so set in their ways. When there is a doller to be made, whether it is by a native caretaker or herp entrepreneur, success is more likely to occur than an approach that does nothing than ensure failure....

Swiss

swiss May 09, 2009 07:27 PM

just saw the posting below.....

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