Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Well, things do not smooth out do they? Since we photographted the female copulating, she has left for a while(my guess). The next day, there was another blackcoachwhip there at the hole. It was a little smaller then the pair. Then the next day, there was nothing. FOR A WHOLE DAY.

Althought, the nights have been busy, both rattlesnakes are now taking turns feeding.

Today, I see a little head sticking out of the hole. So whats a boy to do, feed it, yes? So guess what, Its not the first one, or the second one, or the third one. Its a new coachwhip and its not even a black one like the rest. It takes three mice then I decide I ought to take its picture. So I got a head shot. Hopefully it will ease up some and get more trusting in the next few days.

So what we have is, AT least four indvidual coachwhips have come to feed from me, at the same exact place. All within a few days.

My question is, HOW do they know to do that. And how did they find out about this???? and how come I have not seen this many coachwhips in the past. And how come there are lizards living in this area too. Ok, I had more then one question, I want answers! Cheers

P.S. if the gravid female is like other reptiles I have done this with, I will not see her until after she lays, then she will come back with a vengenous.

My thoughts, its not unusual for newly acquired w/c animals to take f/t mice right off so why would we expect less from an animal that has never been molested?

Also population density is positively correlated to food supply. By feeding some of the snakes you are increasing that supply thus, the remaining "natural" food supply is not exploited and so other animals can and do move in.

Alternatively they could be talking to each other and telling their friends that some old guy is giving out free snake-snacks.

-----
“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

First off, them eating mice was not the question. The question would be more accurately A wild coachwhip taking food from a humans hands. Which I will tell you is not common with free ranging coachwhips. In most cases, they are GONE within seconds and you would not have time to feed them.

So why does four seperate individuals take mice from my hands. Sir, that is a good question. Not a simple, oh they eat mice type question.

I am very surprised at your next paragraph. Well not really, if your only trying to make trouble then it fits you. But if your serious, your not using what you have learned.

A prey base does indeed control population density, just not in ten days. As that is how long I have been feeding them. So its not going to increase or maintain a higher population in that time. Either your being silly again, or your not thinking this throught at all.

Again its really about better questions. A better question is, were all these coachwhips already here and I simply did not see them. Or is there some method that they attract eachother.

The most probable explination for that is, the cycling female is attracting a suitable mate and unsuitable followers. But that does not explain how they know to beg for food.

I have been thinking about this and somethings have crossed my mind. First, I rarely see coachwhips here, maybe a couple a year, over the last 25 years. But that does not mean they have not seen me. I may indeed be part of their landscape and they and other reptiles have been watching me, even if I do not see them. So in a sense, I am not new to them, and they have watched me for a long time. I am only adding something new to them that is benefitual to them. So they allow me to see them. They are just new to me.

Again your last paragraph maybe in fun, but that is not totally out of the question. Of course, they are not "talking"(are they?) but they may have the ability to use scent as a language. That is, they might be able to smell when others have fed, then follow their scent to that spot.

The point is, they are without question, four individuals coachwhips, of which, before last fall(2 then), have never been fed by me. Then starting the last day of april, four have come forth and have practiced the art of taking food from a human.

Again, consider the species. I also feed rattlesnakes. They come to the same spot about every third night and wait until I feed them, then they go to their holes which are some distance away. I have found those holes, but if I bother them to much, they move.

I have fed gophersnakes as well. The problem with them is they are gophersnakes. They live in holes and do not come out. So I have to go around dangling mice in front of holes. That gets tiresome after a few dozen feedings.

I also fed in a magisters spiny and had her for 8 years, I witnessed and photographed her growing up, feeding, climbing on me. Breeding with males, nesting, etc etc etc. She was "easy" as she would run me down and beg for food. I also did this with a roadrunner, I have the same pics, including her taking me to her babies. I fed them too. she lasted 8 years as well.

But COACHWHIPS, I guess once you get on their good side, they are just as nice as any other species. hahahahahahahahahahaha. The learning goes on. Cheers

Isn't it illegal to be feeding snakes and other animals in the wild? Well if it isn't, it might well should be..

Here these poor animals are thinking they are getting free food and really they are being expolited for experimental reasons. I think we need new legislation so these animals won't over produce and ruin the ecolological balance of nature...
-----
Signature edited

"I think we need new legislation so these animals won't over produce and ruin the ecolological balance of nature..."

I heard China tried this with....oh wait you mean snakes...yep they are the PROBLEM....

I also am assuming you are joking around about population controls in regards to snakes...
-----
Thanks,

Frank Roberts

I also am assuming you are joking around about population controls in regards to snakes...

Yes of course I was making a joke. But I was serious about new legislation. If you have been around a while you know that new regulations and crazy laws are taking away our ability to keep snakes. Next thing is if you are caught walking around the desert or mountains with white thawed mice a F&G guy will cite you or arrest you. It is that way now if you have a pillow case in your backpack...it shows intent and that is all they need. So walking around feeding snakes white mice would soon get a similar law in place. All it needs is someone to call attention to the governing authorties and make a complaint blah blah blah..

I think most of the ideas of legislation start in California and work their way east. This whole mess with bag limits ect started when someone complianed that people were cracking the rocks in the laguna mountains in Calif. Then all of a sudden all pulchra are illegal to take and other mountain king take is only one poer person. This also was apllied to other species.

BTW, the Lagunas are full of zonata pulchra today. Not one study or survery was taken before the legislation was put in place and later on there was even attmepts to submit survets of population densities. The laws are nut and it will just get worse. You'll see!

Regulation is always easy. Deregulation is nearly impossible.

FR has been a pionneer (yes it is true) in most things regarding herpetoculture. Nowadays collectors are just collecting pictures. But cannot disturb the animals. No body removes the animals and taking pics is the current trend. I assume feeding them will be the next step and people will follow with FR's experiences. It's really cool stuff to learn and do what he is doing. Others will follow in his footsteps Again.
-----
Signature edited

you can see it now...khaki shorts $unglasses and a great camera, and a bucket full of mice.....in the Cali Mts....feed them as you take the shots of them.....lure them out of the rock and not break the rocks....

National Geographics will have to Photoshop the white mice out of all the pics.....

..LOL....cool....

.
.
-----
......6
......36/ 6
...........................

.

Feeding wildlife is indeed unlawful in many areas...
Sometimes for good reason. It seldom helps the intended benefactor.
:Mark
-----
Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

yea , I know....

like bread to ducks and geese.....bread? really natural food...and really good for them????NOT

and people in town feed them right at the sign that says do not feed wilflife/ waterfowl....

watched Game Warden writing guys up for shooting geese too close to the park there also....it's not there fault....it's the bread people's....

...same with people in parking lots feeding the gulls....as they fly and squirt all the cars....uuummm..stop feeding them....my sister is a manager there....she saw people feeding (she knew them) she went and got something,took it out and threw it on their car (while they were in it feeding) and the gulls were all on and over their car...they got the point and left....

.........
...it was a joke....the mice bucket ....

.

......

once I did see a water snake in a wall, stone, no way to get them out, stick face up to hole to see them....I was fishing...I held a minnow to the hole and the water proceeded to come out and take the monnow....no it did not come out far and no it did not stay out...fed one and left....

.......
-----
......6
......36/ 6
...........................

.

Good rationale for the other snakes being there, certainly more plausible than mine but i was working off the assumption that you'd been doing this with this particular pair of whips for at least two years.

I think however we tend to underestimate the ability of animals to habituate to our presents if we meet them on their terms and do not molest them. I would imagine our black racers have the same kind of flight response but I've seem many of them become quite accustomed to my poking around. Is it possible that they were aware of your presents long before you were aware of theirs?
-----
“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Then the question becomes, how many are in that this one spot? What is odd is, there are still plenty of spinys and other lizards (and rodents)living in the exact same area. These lizards I see everyday and there is rarely a turnover, as least not as fast as a bunch of snakes would eat them.

I already know that these reptiles are better as seeing us then we are at seeing them. Its not even close. I have reminded Game and fish folks that collectors are really poor predators. The pale in comparison to bobcats, coyotes, fox, badgers and ringtailed cats and such, who hunt them on a daily/nightly basis, who can see at night and smell their trails.

The exception is when humans use bulldozers and crowbars and move into and destory their habitats. Cheers

I love it!
" habituate to our presents" and " aware of your presents"
...ahhh...beautiful puns if I do say so myself, Tony....

:Mark
-----
Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

I liked his idea of not eating wild food so more could move into the area.....ok...not long enough, but you fed before...and maybe you just have all kinds of stuff to bring in mice as well as reptiles (around the yard)???

...still have to look up what the heck a majesters spiny is?...

....and smell...yes....they don't smell each other they smell a trail....might just be the female is all that's bringing in males.....I don't think they semll that she fed ....even though dog's sniff each others butts to see who they are,what they are, and what they have been feeding on....face it, if a racoon smells your butt and it smells like corn...he's going to the highground huntin corn, if your butt smells like crawdaddies...he's going fishin ....

....did you ever read my stories of the redtail hawk feeding from me for 6 or 7 weeks?....winter 18 inches snow....and hunger started her....(she setting on wash post, I threw a blue rat out back door...bam...she came back almost everyday for 6 or more weeks after that....the second day I was setting on a 5 gallon bucket throwing her mice, and she was setting 6 feet away scarfing them down....like 6 or 7 I think....she feared me not that day....)...

..........
-----
......5
......32/ 5
...........................

.

I have screech owls that come to me to pilfer pinks sometimes...and a few Tokay geckos that steal my mice...
:Mark
-----
Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

and my mother-in-law trains wild birds to feed right out of her hand every year. I've tried but seem to lack the patience. Either that or they can sence that I'm wondering what chickadee pie tastes like!
-----
“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

www.reptilesofaz.com/Lizards-Subpages/h-s-magister.html
-----
Diego

SWCHR

he talked about a roadrunner and a spiny...my mind was thiunking what the heck bird is that....

DUH.....Ok...thanxx.........spinies I know....they taste like chicken ......(to snakes)...

Thanxx......

........
-----
......6
......36/ 6
...........................

.

Cool stuff. I think it is possible that these new coachwhips were previously watching you, saw their opportunity and thought "what the heck, if everybody else is exploiting this supply of food, I will too." Maybe the original coachwhips ate so damn many mice that they are either full, in shed, or, in the case of the presumed female, gravid. Now it is time for the "beta coachwhips" to get theirs. Kinda like young lions grabbing a chunk of wildebeest carcass when the alpha male is sleeping or copulating.

Interesting thing to me is that this demonstrates (maybe) rational thought and memory by a snake. They must have been used to seeing you for some period of days and determined that you are not a threat. I guess it is possible that the new coachwhips also smelled "mouse molecules" on the original coachwhips, but these snakes are so adept at sight-hunting that I bet they were watching and learning. Cool stuff.

Of course, I lean in that direction, but if you remember, the start of this is based on "one" biologist saying snakes do not have the ability to learn. Of course, that is only one biologist that was on here. Most of the biologist I know say its somewhere in the middle. A balance of instinct(inherited knowledge) and learned experiences to refine those instinctual abilities. Buts thats for another day.

Its somewhat of a revelation to me to think they have been watching me watching them, hahahahahahahahahahahaha. But it does make sense. I do see the lizards watch me. And I tell folks snakes have the same abilities has lizards, only its hard to see(no eyelids). So I have to practice what I preach. hahahahahahahahaha That darn blackhead thing. It its in the shadows, its impossible to see. Cheers

Anyway, the learning goes on. Cheers

It could still just be conditioning but as I've said before, I'm not sure that I understand difference between conditioning and learning. Anthropomorphism is generally seen as a bad thing but how do you formulate observations outside of your own experience? In any case I think its better to see that you have more in common with other inhabitants of the natural world than less. Unless of course you want to bulldoze their habitat, then its best to just see them as things.
-----
“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Conditioning is a method to reinforce learning. That is, to keep doing something until its "normal".

To feed out of humans hands is not instinctual, therefore it must be learned. Or if you simply call us predators, then the animals must learn that "this" predator is not harmful and is of actual benefit.

Conditioning is doing this, having then feed out of our hands/tongs, over and over until they are not fearful to do so. They learn where to go for food and not to fear me/people. In most cases, they are still leary of other people, so I will say me, the one who feeds them.

Conditioning could be the snakes reinforcing the knowledge of where prey has been successfully obtained. Its instinct as to what prey is, but its learned where to find it on a regular successful basis. Again, conditioning could be the successful repeated finding of these prey items. This would teach them to return to this area.

We have seen that wild reptiles not only remember where they find prey, but to the exact day. We often see them hunting the exact same areas at the same time, year after year. I would think that takes learning or something just like learning but different because its a reptile and they cannot learn(joke) Cheers

Don't know if it's that simple Frank. I'm not discounting your understanding but I think there is a much finer distinction. To me it seems that conditioning is a form of learning but not all learning is directly based on conditioning. For instance my eight-year-old son has spelling words he has to study every week. Each week there are a few words that he calls "sight words". These are words that follow none of the standard spelling rules and he has to keep repeating the series of letters in his head until he's imprinted them and their corresponding sound into his brain. That to me is classic conditioning, just keep showing him the flash cards and eventually he gets it. Then there are words that follow all the standard phonetic rules. He can sound these out and spell them even though he's never seen them in print before. This too is based on conditioning because he had to memorize the rules but he's also using these rules to deduce a correct responce. This reasoning ability is certainly a much higher level or learning.

For your coach whips I would surmise that their standard instinct is to approach any new stimulus (movement, smell, vibration ......) and its cause with caution. They were likely well aware of you long before they became conditioned to your presents enough to allow you to be aware of them. From there it was simply a matter of opportunistically taking food that presented itself. That to me is straight conditioning. Now if the new animals observed the original coach whips taking food from you and as a result where more quickly conditioned to your presents; I think that would indicate some kind of higher level of thinking. That I'm incapable of imagining such a learning process occurring without language as I experience it doesn't mean it didn't happen. Any of that make sense?

Anyway I'm certainly not discounting your experience. I've known several people who interact with wild birds much like you do with snakes around the ranch. Doing so takes time and patience but is ultimately worthwhile and perhaps alters ones perception in ways those who haven't taken the time can appreciate.

-----
“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

I am sorry, but you do take things way way to far. I am working on a much simplier basis.

Of course you can complicate anything as much as you want, but in the end, what good is that? For instance, the cop out statement of Anthropromorphism is funny. Simply put, EVERYTHING US ANTHROS(humans) think every other living thing IS anthropromorphism. The reason is simple, we are not them. So we have to be anthropromorphic. That is the only way we will every undertstand anything. Soo and this is a big so, we have to make that work for us.

Also you can complicate the term "conditioning" as much as you want, but in the end, those snakes have to learn something to do something thats not NORMAL to them. If they repeated the event, they must have learned something. The FACT that both the coachwhips and rattlesnakes return to the exact same place, does indeed mean they learned something.

That a very cautious snake like coachwhips learn to take from from me and do so within minutes is "interesting" And deserves more observation. Again, not need to make to much out of it.

I do have lots of questions and lots of ideas(theory) based on lots and lots of this type of work.

I asked if others have ideas and thats what I wanted. I did not really want ambiguity, I already know there could be lots and lots of different answers for the same thing. Its those responses that I was interested in hearing. What are some others ideas or experiences.

I really enjoyed others posting snakes taking advantage of urban oppertunities. Thanks

I think you miss read the intent of my post.
-----
“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Yea, that happens huh hahahahahaha Cheers

I have coachwhips ,racers and Blah blah several venomous lurking out side and my rat room has its door open all night /all day the only predators have been Yellow rats ,though every morning i L@@K for EDBs or what ever, the corals like lizards and small snakes , funny i say that last year when i saw alot of skinks a coral appeared ,btw its skink season......C

they smell other snakes and follow the trail
they smell happy smells not musky flight smells
and you
you allow them in the yard and don't run,scream,and grab a shovel like most adult morons in the world...

all I got....you live in a good area and allow it...

you might look like a big mouse(decoy)
or you just have sucka on your forehead????

.....good stuff.......thanxx
-----
......5
......32/ 5
...........................

.

Here it is. Also we are assuming the last two are males, they may well be females.

I am also assuming the breeding pair had a male on top and a female on the bottom. She was a bit puffed up, hahahahahahahahaha.

Enjoy the pics and hopefully more to come. Cheers

I just read through all your posts,Idk how I overlooked these. Man this is so very intresting & very True,,,,,I have a very large Tx rat snake that went frm snaggin f/t rats off my bottom step to ALMOST taken pre killed rats out of my hand,,,Im gunna post pix ASAP....

Joe

Posts of the year!
-----
Todd Hughes

Yet again, amazing observations! You raise some very interesting questions. I can't even begin to theorize what the answers are, as I readily admit that I really know next to nothing about wild snake behavior. I am looking forward to find out what conclusions you come to, if any.
-----
Diego

SWCHR

I think conclusions are very very difficult. I think more observations and a little understanding would be more likely.

I already have an idea that the gravid female will not return until after she lays, then again just before winter. It will be interesting to see exactly what happens.

The last three nights, diamondbacks have come to feed, I will post some pics of them. Althought, I do not let them crawl up my leg, hahahahahahahahaha Cheers

The last three nights, diamondbacks have come to feed, I will post some pics of them. Althought, I do not let them crawl up my leg, hahahahahahahahaha Cheers

.......wussy......Darwin would WANT you to at least try this with a rattler.....

then again...Darwin "studied" with a shotgun at times too....

.
.
.
-----
......6
......36/ 6
...........................

.

Hmmmmmmm I have let them crawl on me. Just not these. I am hoping I have "learned" should have been instinct.

I have had two hot bites and a bunch of dry bites from rattlesnakes. Again, What I learned is, there is no reason to get bit.

Unfortunately, none of the bites were "accidents"

This is me a very long time ago.

That's a great pic, Frank!!!

//Todd

cheese and rice...you found and albut caught the Loch Ness Monster!!!!!!!

......cool stuff......

........
-----
......6
......36/ 6
...........................

.