Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Realy want to know what people here think about Using UVB ligths with reptiles in General and with monitors in specific.

My personal opinion is that I would use it for my carpet pythons if I could at the moment. But the expense of new cages and getting a whole new room to fit it all is no possible at the moment.

But monitors is the subject and so.
I had a conversation about concerns about not using UVB and UVA ligths on reptiles in captivity with a curator at London Zoo.
And he could tell me that he/they had taken X-rays of varanus pilbarensis witch never had been exposed to UVB ligth. And what they saw on the x rays where not good. The bone density was extremly low. It actually showed holes in the bones.

I come from Norway and we are so far north that we have very low UVB exposure troughout the year witch is the reason why alot of people get depressed especially in the wintertime and have one of the world highest raters of ostoporosis(and suicide).

I see a link between the two and will say that UVB ligths is vital to have healthy animals, I mean monitors bask, and so do I do at the beach in the summer time.

I heard a report on the radio while driving, about people with cancer who get it at a time of year that makes it possible for theme to go outdoors and get exposure to the sun /UVB and have the body produce D3 has a much higher % of survial than those that are diagnosed and get treatement.
Just from the natural production of D3 from sun exposure. They said more test had to be done, but the % was so much higher that there clearly was a link between sun/d3 and surival rate.

As "evidence" too me also, a friend has breeding pair of Fiji iguanas. He has kept theme with UVB tubes and regular bulb spots.
He recently got some Lucky reptile Desert UVB lamps.
With Kelvin numbers very similar to that found in nature for fijis.
He had to turn it of, because the male got so aroused by presence of UVB and UVA ligth.... :O That he was afraid it could kill his female.

Id love to get some tougths on the subject.

Hi,

To be honest with you I only read the first paragraph or so becuase this question (disscusion) is so redundant.

I have yet a simple reply, just look at what FR has done with monitors. Then realize all that he has accomplished has been without UV bulbs, hmmmmmmmmmmm.

The other people (UV believers) say this and that and this, and that is fine, but what do they have to back it up with....last I checked, nothing (of use).

So based on that, I will continue to purchase $5 bulbs instead of $35 bulbs.

Cheers,
Mike.

Hi Mike, the young man we are talking to has a very very good record with reptiles, Exceptional. This one has a lot of experience to draw from.

In this case, as I mentioned below, its about conditions. We have heat, whether I want it or not. He has cold, at all times of the year. Heck, when he goes to the beach to bask, I would freeze to death.

What people from cold climates call hot is also not so accurate, not to us. Here, its hot when its over 110F, up them that, WE ARE COLD. OK, from 90F to 110F we are warm. Below 90F I am freezing, hahahahahahaha. While this is a joke, its true. Heck, they go to the beach if its sunny and 50F. I would be breaking the out the heavy jacket.

What we may have is regional needs. I do not live in the north, I did spend two years in Seattle(not that cold) and had great success with raising and breeding snakes, but I was the odd one out. I gave them heat.

Anyhoot, this could be a very good discussion and this man has lots of experience. Lets see where it goes. Thanks Frank

Arent alot of his monitors kept outside?

It doesn't matter if alot of his monitors are outside.....

Here is why, alot of them are(were)(are still I dont know) outside and alot of them are (were) still are, inside.

Fine, simple.

But the fact that he says he noticed NO DIFFERENCE between keeping them outside and inside is important. (If I am wrong there Frank, please correct me) As long as the support is there they thrive no matter where they are kept.

Thanks,
Mike.

I have raised many generations of over 20 species of varanids, including pilbarensis. I have never used UV bulbs at any time.

Also, since 1991, I have kept varanids outdoors in the highest UV area around(according to John Coots and his UV meter) and indoors without ever being exposed to UV bulbs or sunlight and I have not seen a difference.

But there is one huge difference, I live in the hot desert and we have heat. We have heat indoors, outdoors and all doors. We have heat winter and summer. I think heat is whats needed, not UV.

ALso, I live where many reptile species live, yet we are not hot enough to support large lizards, they occur a couple hundred miles to the south. Here, during the active time of the year, captive(in our outdoor cages) and wild reptiles do NOT BASK, in fact, they avoid the direct sun at all costs. During the time of the year where the ground is cool, early spring and early winter, they will bask for short periods of time until they can move out of the sun.

Many reptiles take on names that reveal these behaviors. On the Seri indian reservation, they call desert tortosie, the one who walks with his back to he sun. Which when asked explained they only move with the sun very low.

As I type this, the sun is very low and lizards are all over moving about and feeding. They avoid the sun.

In our outdoor cages, we often have spot lites on half the cage, and the sun on the other half. In most cases they avoid the sun and use the lites.

So after raising hundreds upon hundreds of reptiles, include many kinds of snakes, lizards, torts, and turtles. UV has not played a part.

At this point in my reply, I will say, If you live in an area where you do not or cannot supply the proper heat, then maybe UV bulbs are for you.

But to say its needed or even benefits, is not accurate, not here and not with our methods(we let them get as hot as they want)

The reality is, these reptiles you are talking about do not come from places like London or Sweden, they do come from places like here in southern Arizona or even hotter. Thanks of considering what I am saying. Cheers

Hmmm,

Heat is important (most important?) and infact seems to be the reason many people have problems with this or that - and there is no problem with that as this is a learning process for ALL, as you need to adjust (more POWER (wattage) or more bulbs or less if too hot).

Now you (FR) put forth that if one can not access the temperatures required that uv MAY be an option for them....the first question I ask myself, is how could UV be a substitute or suppliment in leu of proper heat levels? Or what could UV help for a lizard that cant access the heat needed to task.

I live in New Jersey, we get hot hot summers (humid too) and cold cold winters...even in the dead of winter I have no problem maintaining cage temps.......so I can only imagine that anyone keeping these creatures who lives in a cool place shouldnt have a problem getting the temps they need, it would simply require more money (power) (insulation).

However if you lack money or electricity then I could see heat problems. Dang that reminds me I need to pay this months electric bill......

Thanks,
Mike.

I am going to shoot out a guess, and its only a guess. UVA and UVB are the wavelenghts that penetrate the deepest. Thats why they are cancer promoters. In most cases, These wavelenghts are responsible for burning deep tissue. And in most cases, animals develop methods to reflect these wavelenghts. We use sunglasses and sunscreen.

Anyway, they may be able to excite the same reaction at lower temps.

The truth is, AS WE KNOW, you can obtain the right temps with a 45 watt halogen. Yet a 150 watt UV bulb puts out far less heat. But may do the same job. Or in the case of Europeans, they may use fancy dancy Mer halide hoota toota lites.

>>I am going to shoot out a guess, and its only a guess.
>>UVA and UVB are the wavelenghts that penetrate the deepest.

It is actually red and near infrared that penetrate deepest into living tissue (shine a flashlight through your hand in a dark room and you will see the red light goes through your meat and skin). UV is blocked pretty quickly - the main problem is that each UV photon packs enough energy to re-arrange and break some chemical bonds, which can cause surface radiation burns (sunburn).

The point is kinda peripheral to your idea, and I'm not really sure how it applies to monitors (will red or near IR light go through a lizard's scales? My timors are too skittish to let me experiment on them).

Cheers,

Luke

I see and know the point with thermal gradient.
That is even more important than UVB for surivial in captivity.

What Im talking about is giving our beloved herps all they need to live a great life, not survival.

But how about the link between Osteporosis in humans, with litle UVB/sun exporsure to ostoporosis in varandis without UVB ligth?
I do not have a paper to reffer to on this, but I spoke to the person doing the xrays. And being on of the currators at London Zoo I will take his word for that the findings he told me is true. And the Osto in humans are well known.

FR,
Im not shure but Iv seen pictures reptiles bask, crocs, monitors and even diamond pythons in the wintertime.
And even if not all reptiles ly directly in the sun, all of theme are not going underground. And do get indirecte-exposure to UVB.
I mean you can get a nice tan, even if you stay under a parasol at the beach.

I cant find it now since my GF has tidyd my desk, but there was a large article about the benefits of UVB in last months or this months reptiles magasine. Anyone feel to comment on that?

I could not careless what my outside temps are, I dont keep theme in cardboard boxes outdoors.
Im talking about what kind of enviroment I can reproduce for the animals inside my insulated house.

But to add to the going to the beach story, I never feel better than we Im in Spain for 2 weeks for veccation in the summer. I get a nice tan and I feel my skin get better etc.
All this is from true sun exposure. We have 100.000 Norwegian old folks who travel to the mediteraninan every winter, they feel better because of heat. And I dear to say sun/UVB/ stronger ligth in the wintertime.

And to a sidenot about bulbs, how much visible ligth does it emit!? About 5% ligth and 95% heat/energy.
I feel that if you do not have ligth sources dayligth tubes or similair. We are keeping our reptiles in the dark.
Could that be healthy?
Back to the point with the Fijis, the male went crazy under similar kelvin degree to where he comes from in Nature, and became lazy Bob when the UVB/kelvin ligth was turned off.. Doesnt that say anything?

Im realy interrested in a meaningfull debate, not about personal crusaid and that ZooMed wants us to buy expensive bulbs.

This is about what UVB can do for captive animals.
UVB from the sun, bulbs, tubes, or whatever.

Bård

Hi Bard, I think you need to re-read my last reply. ALso, because this is a Varanid forum, lets stick to varanids. You are grabbing at straws, but talking about this then that, then the other. In this case, I have results with VARANIDS. Lets concentrate on this, are we have plenty of RESULTS and experiences.

Again, you need to re-read my last reply. We have successfully bred and raised thousands of babies. Then you say, UV must benefit. I ask, what is the benefit????? We have set many many growth and reproductive records as well as longevity records. An example, I have an 18 year old ackie thats still producing. And to many others to mention, oh how about I have a female argus cross that I hatche that has laid over 60 clutches and is still going, hmmmmmmmm that is a test of calicum placement, yes????

You say you or someone you know or read about, has animals that are not so active. My response to that is, that is a sign conditions are not supportive. You/they should attend to those conditions. We do attend to those conditions and meet them without the UV bulbs.

As I said, we have varanids outdoors and we are in one of the highest UV areas in the world, Hmmmmmmmmmm Tucson and Mt. Isa, are amoung the hightest. We also have the highest skin cancer rate in the world. Hmmmmmmmm I wonder where my attitude comes from.

Having them both outside with real UV and inside without, and have no difference in results. Results are all that you speak of. Activity, growth, color, reproduction, etc.

I do not want to brag, but I bet I have produced more varanids then all of Europe put together when it comes to varanids. In fact, its not bragging, its simple truth. For a decade or so, we produced more then the whole rest of the world in total. What this means is, we did not to learn, we did have to find out what was benefitual and what was not. You do not allow generation after generation with many many species, without doing something right.

One area of discussion that is ALWAYS missing in these conversations is, WHEN AND AT WHAT TIME IS CALICUM IMPORTANT. Most the promote UV bulbs, always generalize. They just say its needed. I have to ask, when, for what, and WHY????? They generally have no real answers, its just needed.

There is no question when CALICUM IS NEEDED MOST, its with fast growing babies. Some think its when females are developing eggs. The reality is, fast growing neonates double and triple their entire skeletons in a week or two. Sir, that is without question the test for UV and Calcium placement.

So again it comes to the "better" question. In this case, you again are generalizing. That is, you grab at various non related instances. While I go directly to the subject and produce results. The test for calicum placement is with fast growing neonates and reproductive females. They are the individuals that NEED to place calicum and need it in large amounts. We have had no problems here, not with indoors(no uv) or with outdoors(lots of UV)

The absolute truth is, the most common type varanid with or dying from Calicum Def. desease are adults that are non breeding, non growing and have the least need for calicum placement. So why is an animal/s that have little need for calicum placement suffering from CDD?? I really do not know the answer but I would guess its simply because the conditions are NOT BEING MET and the individuals have no will to live, therefore are suffering from a compromised immune system.

Ok, your turn. hahahahahahahaha thanks again

Frank,

I do not doubt that you have produced the most varanids in the US and EU, but also probably in the world.

And you would copy any method that would work better than yours at the moment in heart beat(Iv read your responds to other threads)

Can I ask how you calcium supplement your varandis?
And have you ever performed a x ray to see bonedensity of your animals? Not out of illness ofcourse, but out of curiosity?

When Im mixing in what I read about humans VS monitors its because of a lack uf UVB exposure to humans lead to ostoporosis.
My friend at london zoo, said the group of pilbariensis he did x rays on all had poor quality bones.
And no exposure to UVB, BUT their care could also have been low quality, with bad temps.
But I do belive they had relativly good care, but maybe not varanid care. Im not going to make theories about that.

About the ligths for the fijis, he used mega ray.
He has now put mega ray into action for 1.1 v pilbariensis, 1.1 v glauerti ..2 tegus and uromastyx.
These are animals I can go and see everyday, its nothing I read or heard about. They are out in the open too see and I know the keeper for the last 10-11 years.
He told me all are much more active, have a better feeding respond and better color. And all varanids have started to breed eache other, and the fijis. But the male went so crazy after the ligths was turned on, he had to turn it off again.

A another fellow of mine is also using mega ray on his collard lizards and tells me the results are noticable compared to when he only used store bulbs and UVB tubes. Same as above.

The heat gradient was just the same, so no difference there!!

What is changed is the amount of visible ligth and presence of UVB/UVA. UVB tubes are worthless btw. He also bougth a UVB meter co check the quality of the UVB bulb over time and what the tubes did. Witch was close to nothing at a distance of 4".

No one has touched this:

Regular bulbs only emit 5% ligth!
Do anyone here think it is healthy to keep a day active lizard in only 5% of visble ligth? If I had a lux/kelvin meter Id say how much 5% is.

A last question that is known for humans, and Id bet it applys to lizards too.
If you get exposure to UVB/UVB your body produces D3 witch helps uptake of calcium in our body.
Vitamin D3 is produced in the skin from 7-dehydrocholesterol under influence of sunligth /UVB radiation 290-315nm/

Do you not think that could also apply to reptiles some way or the other?

But UVB in safe amounts of nm cannor hurt theme, do we agree on that?

What Im after with this is giving my group of glauertis the best I can, and knowing they are day active and live in one of the worlds most UV exposed area in the world.
Im pretty shure they do get UVB exposure.
And those of you who are afraid of giving your reptiles skin cancer, go to uvguide.co.uk they have checked the UVB level that penetrates different reptiles shed skin. And with appropriate leves of exposure for the species you keep there is no harm.

So here the other day I did a experiment.
I took my 5 glauerties and but theme in a tub.
They where like litle racers on speed in the tub because of catching and stressig theme.
Put it under a ZooMEd 100 Watt UVB bulb about 10" distance.
They all stopped running around instantly.
They layed down, spread out and soaked up the rays, strange or what !?

They now have a halogen spot witch gives theme 50c hot spot, but they do not spread out and chill like they did under the UVB lamp.

c",)

Thanks for a meaningfull conversation.

Bård

Did the color of your animals intensify as well over time under your uv bulb?

I bet it did/ will

cheers.
Todd G.

Hi Todd,

Yes the color of the 5 glauertis all intensified incredibly while under the UVB ZooMed 100watt PowerSun or what the name is.

This could have 2 reasons!
1) That the animals themeselfs did something with their color.
2) Beeing kept under a ligth that emits a color spectrum with is far wider than any regular store bougth bulb does.
That could and will bring out colors of the animals.

I think it could be a mix of the two.

If I take a look at my Sunglow Sharp boa while in the rack, the color is OK.
But if I take the tub out and bring the box over to the window, the visible colors explode.

We have a saying that tell it pretty accurat:
At nigth all cats are gray..

So sufficent spectrum of ligth is needed to see the vidid colors reptiles have non the less. Just that is good reason to use good ligth sources, even tough it migth cost some.

Bård

they "tan".

if you haven't already...this website has some of the MOST comprehensive info on commonly used uv bulbs and great insight on safe/sensible use.

you may want to check it out.

http://www.uvguide.co.uk/

cheers
Todd G.

ps. hey, for additional heat lighting, i just saw some new color corrected halogen bulbs at Target yesterday. sylvania ? ge? they looked pretty good. they had a slight blue filter glass to cut down on the yellow cast to make them more close to the color temprature of natural light.
for 10 bucks they looked pretty good. personally, i would also have a seconary light/ heat source just in case so the animals have a choice. just to be careful not to over uv. best of luck.

Hi Bard, We have a little problem. Both our posts get way to long and that will not help us. We need to address one area at a time then we could actually accomplish something meaningful.

First about type of UV bulb. Remember, I have the best UV bulb ever made, the real SUN and that is what we have adjusted our indoor conditions to meet.

In your reply, you care comparing numbers from a piece of paper. 5% this or that and that is suppose to be meaningful. ALso you say, do you think this or that, again in hopes that would be meaningful. Let me explain how I work.

I am a believer of animals. I am not such a believer of Humans. I have nothing against them, but after all, they are only humans(when it comes to animals) In the case of varanids, humans have a very very poor record of understanding them in nature and even worse in captivity.

When I started there were very few monitors bred in captivity and those that were were done by only a couple of keepers in Germany. I visited those nice people.

I started with ackies of course. In my first year, I noticed that they were not like what was in print. I found them to be bird like. In that, birds are prejudiced nesters. That is, they do not hibernate or need photo period or rain cycle to reproduce. They need nests. If you give a halfway healthy bird ITS TYPE OF NEST or the ability to make it, it will put eggs in it.

I found ackies had a hard time nesting, so I worked on that. Of course, I not only read all the papers, but I went and looked at ackies in nature and found how they nest and what they use and where they do such. Once I did that. One female laid 6 clutches back to back, all fertile and all hatched. Also after six clutches, she looked absolutely normal.

There is a little story here. A good friend is from Norway, hes a Vet. I called him after the first clutch and he congratulated me. Then after the second, he said be careful she will die. Then after the third, he said, Hoooooooo or something in his language. Then after the fourth, fifth and sixth. He then came to my house and inspected the female. He looked at me and said, she looks great, keep up what your doing.

To keep that going, my first Kimberly produced 68 living babies in 8 months and was fine. This goes on, my first Lacie laid five clutches her first year, and was fine.

Now let me add, none experienced calicum problems. Or activity problems.

I keep them in many different ways, some outdoors, some always indoors, some both, and some have lites 24/7, some not, and of course some are outdoors with a real photoperiod. Again, I saw no difference in health. But I did see a difference in reproduction. I always get better reproduction, indoors without UV. Not that UV has anything to do with it.

So when all manner of nice folks go on and on about UVA or B, I have to wonder, WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH IT???? I wonder about it, because we have superior results in all areas of varanid care, but pay no attention to it.

Which really means, if you ask me why others will need it, I cannot answer that. I can only say, WITHOUT QUESTION, its not needed to keep varanids healthy, happy, growing, reproducing, and to live a long life.

All the other things you ask about do not matter. As whatever we do, we are not having your problems, or the problems your hoping to avoid.

What I concentrate on is, NESTING, deep substrate suitable for the species. A full temperature range, the ability to be secure and safe. Which means the ability to live in the material they are designed to live in. AND FEED THE BEANS OUT OF THEM. Over the years, we have reduced or food to a very basic area, crickets and rodents.

I do dust the crickets, and thats it. ALthought I have raised many on crickets without dusting, but it does seem to help.

ALso I concentrate of allowing monitors to be SOCIAL. that is, we allow them to learn whats its like to live with other monitors. I could careless if they are social in nature or not, I believe they are highly social in nature, but it really does not matter.

The reason is, in order to breed varanids, you must keep them together at some time or the other. So its best if they know how to react to other individuals. And this has worked far beyond anything I could imagine.

I know, keep it short. You see, the problem is, we must gain some understanding before we jump off the deep end.

So lets start again, do varanids need UVA OR UVB, in my EXPERIENCE NO.

also if your friends with those lites put an equal about of heat on their monitors, how would they react? You See, most have a poor situation, then add more lite(Uv bulbs) When they could have added more heat with regular bulbs and achieved the same if not better results. Cheers

When I tried UV bulbs I noticed the lizard were making use of them in one way, they would lay on the light assembly NOT near the bulb. When I checked the surface temp of the assembly it was 125f, the lizards were basking away from the bulb or UV light, but on the assembly to make use of the heat.
To check this I switched the bulbs to similar normal lightbulbs (same wattage, etc), they still did the same thing, only they would lay closer to the bulb itself, or in the light being produced on the light assembly. This told me that they avoided the UV, but sought the heat.
Yes, they were brighter and more vibrant colored, from the heat difference, not from the UV light.
How hard is this to understand or for others to try for themselves and see firsthand, seeing is believing right?

Frank,

I agree with what you say.
You have the best records of keeping and breeding theme as far as I know.

I understand what you say about temps, gradient, good substrat, more than enough food and socializing varandis before it comes time to breed theme.
And I hope I can make the best cage possible and produce 69 glaurtis from a female one season

What Im realy after is if we can get even healthier animals from UVB exposure? You say no, or highly doubtfull.

I will try.

A english vet I know has writen a paper on uromastyx and problems relating to no UVB exposure.
Id love if you read it and gave me a notice back on what you think, I think I know what its going to be tough. More heat and gradient.

On a sidenot, what Im trying to say about visual ligth. It can be metered in lux, candles, kelvin and probably other units.
Regular storebougth bulbs, does not give of much visible ligth at all.
Iv looked into a 100watt store halgoen and a 70 watt lucky reptile desert lamp. And the difference is nigth and day.

One last thing, Do you not belive monitors need a ligth cycle at all? Those bulbs you speak of using does only give of enugh lite to simulate dusk. so 24/7 isnt realy ligths off or on, but something in between.

I know who the vet you talk of is, and and I also know how europe got alot of ackies

Thanks
Bård

Hi Bard, Again I wonder what healthier is. This is something you have to explain to me. I have an 18 year old female ackie thats still producing and she started at 7 months of age and produced 6 clutches a year for many years(not now of course, 2 is normal) So what is better???

If its not color, or age, or reproductive effort, or growth. What would it be? This is what i am interested in.

I think if you provide decent support, and that is all I did, you will be fine, If you add UVa or B, you should be ok. But I would beware, those two cause blindness. If you look at monitor eyes, they normally use a protective shield. Check our gouldi and perenties. Cheers

"a lack uf UVB exposure to humans lead to ostoporosis"
Sorry if I'm catching up on this thread a few days late, but osteoporosis in humans is not the same thing as NSHP(nutritional secondary hyperparathyroidism) aka "calcium deficiency" or "MBD" (metabolic bone disease). These are different diseases altogether.

Human osteoporosis is related to a lot of things - mainly inactivity, sex (females>>>males), dietary Ca++ and D3 and age (post-menopausal hormonal changes) and some genetics. Lots of sunworshipping retiree's here in Florida are high-risk fracture osteoporosis sufferers and getting sunlight (to get D3 levels up) is never a recommendation by any AMA guidelines, although theoretically it couldn't hurt.

-Krusty

I think maybe your associating the known results with humans with reptiles. There are big differences, it is proven that reptiles dont need UV bulbs to flourish and do better.
Also the humans you refer to have inconsistant exposure amounts, so how can they be compared to reptiles even at that?
Seeing my reptiles grow like they have (anyone who has seen my collection over the years knows that they grow very very fast and big), also knowing that Ive seen Xrays of them and been able to compare bone density to other xrays with those who use UV bulbs, I know that my results are better.
A common problem among reptiles in captivity in fast growing young lizards has been MBD, but yet Ive never had that problem. Ive taken over care for a few with MBD and had them turn around fast then recover completely, but never had that issue with my reptiles. So knowing this, and knowing that the lizards with MBD lived under UV bulbs when they got the MBD, what caused it, and why did it go away without them?
Keepers need to look beyond profit making devices in the pet industry and understand what their reptiles need.
The real question is why did the reptiles you referred to with low calcium density have that problem.

Dont use them, but tryed them years ago. I tryed equivalent normal bulbs in comparison with no difference what so ever. Sounds like you are blaming the rooster for the fox stealing chickens. Bulbs are bulbs, the sun is the sun, theres no comparison, UV bulbs are not needed. Proper heat, and a heat gradient is whats needed.
But if you want to spend your money on those bulbs by all means do so, even the pet industry needs to pay bills and make a profit.

i live in new england, its cold here alot also. The only time ive ever seen a noticeable difference with uvb was with aquatic turtles. As for everything else proper temps were a huge husbandry improvement.(thanks proexotics.com for supplying great info and affordable laser tempguns.)But the fellow up street from me who breeds the albino water monitors highly recommends uvb.(in fact thanks to n.e.r.d. for great info also.)

A good friend who never took his water turtles outdoors, nor did the former owners, had some that would not stop laying eggs, and grew like wildfire. These turtles were still laying eggs when he gave them away.
They were originally gotten as pets for children who were infants, to watch the turtles grow up. The children grew up, had children, and their children were teenagers by the time their interest was lost in the turtles. At this time my friend got them.
These turtle have never had UV exposure, and spent their life indoors. They were huge!
I figure if someone wants to buy way overpriced bulbs they can do so, but the bulbs dont do anything different than any other bulb does.

The UVB market seems like a case of misplaced funds. Just go into any number of big-box pet stores and ask the sales people how much money it costs to set up a bearded dragon. I was in one of these stores the other week and saw a 'complete reptile habitat' for over $400. It was complete in the fact that it was a 20 gallon tank with a screen top, UVB bulbs, calcium sand, and a really nice looking (but useless) aquarium stand. People can be duped into throwing their money away on these useless items when they could go to home depot and get most of what they need to create a much better home for their bearded dragon for less than $40.

For me it just doesn't make any sense to buy UVB bulbs. I would be throwing my money away every 6 months (notice they make sure that you know you need to replace them every 6 months), and that money is better spent on food for them. I don't use UVB bulbs with any of my reptiles, but I go through food like it's nothing. I have to go to the grocery store almost every night to get produce for my small collection of tortoises (4 russians and a redfoot) because my fridge doesn't have enough space to hold more than a days worth of food for them. Right now I'm looking at a russian that I raised from an egg less than 2.5 years ago. She has never once been under a UVB lamp or been outside under the sun. She is coming up on 7" SCL and has a nice smooth shell.

For the best UV information ..

go here :

http://www.uvguide.co.uk/

UV light coupled with full spectrum lighting is definitly the way to go.

Cheers
Todd G.
Link

Theres that generalization FR was just talking about....

Cheers,
Mike.

i said:

"UV light coupled with full spectrum lighting is definitly the way to go. "

but yes...i should have been less general

I meant:

"UV light coupled with full spectrum lighting *on a proper day/night cycle* is definitly the way to go. "

Thanks Mike, your right, I should have been more specific since it would be Wrong to have any Mercury vapor light on 24/7.

(Naturally, "night" heat would have to come from another source, preferably non light emitting)

Cheers