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Curious to know how many people are still introducing males in with their females???

I been getting rats from a medical clinic who raise and breed them for medical research.. I receive them fresh killed after being gassed.. I have noticed after freezing these while defrosting them they start to bleed heavily out their noses.. Is this normal???? Are these rats save for my snakes????? I get them from the breeding facility before being shipped to the clinics.. I also, have noticed they have a different smell compared to pet store rats.. Is this due to the diet??? I'm receiving minimum information from the clinic its self I believe they are gassing them with water and dry ice.. Any information to stop the bleeding or the health issues of this subject is greatly appreciated!!!
Thanks,
JBugg

Curious to know how many people are still introducing males in with their females???
*******you can introduce males to females all year round. the question comes in if the females has follicles ready.

I have noticed after freezing these while defrosting them they start to bleed heavily out their noses..
*******normally gassed rats do not bleed from their noses. the only time i have noticed when rats bleed from their nose is when they have been killed by the "sack and wack" method.

Is this normal???? Are these rats save for my snakes?????
*******i don't think it will be a problem.....if a snake can handle a 2 or 3 time defrosted smelly rat and digest it with no problems then a bloody nose is a walk in the park.

I also, have noticed they have a different smell compared to pet store rats..
*******is the smell a good smell or bad smell? rats have a particular odor like mice....it could be the type of beeding they are kept on.

I'm receiving minimum information from the clinic its self I believe they are gassing them with water and dry ice..
*******i can tell you right now no large breeder or industry will cull rats with the dry ice method. it's to costly and to much work. not to mention a constant suppbly of dry ice. it's just not manageable with large culling. the most effecient method of culling in mass is with CO2, then next is the "sack and wack" method, but will take to long for mass cullings. i can't see why a company would not want to share their method of culling....seems a bit strange in my opinion.

Any information to stop the bleeding or the health issues of this subject is greatly appreciated!!!
*******want to see minimum blood.....feed live.

oh yeah last thing i forgot mention.............lessers and butters are the same morph!

talk to you later

Pitoon

Lesser is lighter

sorry.............but they are the same

Pitoon

Entertaining but didnt really answer my questions.... The rats are gassed via dry ice... I believe the smell is from their diet its a rat smell.. Dont know if there is such thing as a good rat smell.. Does anyone elses rats bleed out the nose while defrosting.. Is it because they are being warmed for too long or at 2 high of a temperature?? I use hot tap water and they sit for maybe 30mins in that then i empty bucket and add more hot tap water for about 5 mins to get them nice and warm.. This only started to happen when I started using the bag technique (defrosting in ziplock bags).. Any viable information is greatly appreciated!!

THANKS,
JBUGG

If butters and lessers are the same which they aren't, then a spider is a calico X woma! And Ghost and Caramels are the same.. And yellowbellys are just a pretty normal, and a ringer is a pied! Pitoon you are sooo childish and I bet your really some old bald guy... SAD

As far as people not answering your questions, it seemed to me that people made a reasonable attempt to answer your questions with the information provided and the experience that they have. Yes, I have had rats and mice bleed from the nose when thawed, and it doesn't harm the snake any or indicate that the rat is bad-it usually indicates some type of physical trauma at the time of the rats death. As for the smell, you said that you thaw them in hot water inside a plastic bag. I do this too, and the rats stink when I open the bag. I imagine it is a result of the rats sort of stewing in their own stink with no ventilation. If nothing else, it gets the attention of all the snakes in the room when I open the bag.

The morphs you were comparing are in no way similar the way that butters and lessers are. You breed a normal to a normal, no matter how pretty, you get a normal. A yellowbelly to a yellowbelly will produce ivories. You breed a pied to a ringer and you're getting het pieds. You breed a ghost to a caramel and you're getting all double hets. lesser to a lesser is a BEL. Butter to a butter is a BEL. Butter to a lesser is a BEL. I am not entirely convinced that they are or are not the same morph. They appear slightly different to me, but it could very well be a matter of bloodlines. I call my butter a butter because that's what he was sold to me as, and thats what his offspring will be called. I'm sure I could pass him off as a lesser if I wanted to, but I won't.

And, while I don't agree with everything pitoon says...hell, I don't agree with everything all the time, period-he has a pretty respectable amount of knowledge about ball pythons.

Jbugg,
relax dude....i'm just busting your chops on the whole lesser and butter conflict. and no i'm not an old bald guy, lol. i'll be 31 this august with a head full of hair. been messing with rats/mice and ball pythons since my early teens (had my fun at strictly's in hollywood). had a break in between when i was in the military and got back into them after i got out. i talk what i know. as Jason mentioned most of the time rats that thaw out and bleed from their nose had some sort of trauma.

if you really don't want to see any blood just add a tissue into the bag when you thaw. the tissue will soak everything up

i still think its weird that company would not tell you how they cull..... culling is not a...... secret. and rats smell good right after you change the bedding. and yes thaw rats do smell even if thawed out for the first time.....try a 3 or 4 time thawed rat.

Pitoon

I have some that get bloody and some that don't. I get mine from Rodentpro so they should all be culled the same way, I believe CO2 chambered, which should have the same effect as the dry ice on the ones you have. I also thaw with the baggy method, almost the exact same way you do.

My theory would be that CO2 gas, from canister or ice, is very cold. Before the mice die their lungs and nasal cavities could be damaged by the cold. Thawing allows for blood frozen around these internal wounds to seep. So they should be safe.

The only concern I would have about your mice is their origin being medical research. As long as the laboratory has given you a guarantee they are not selling you mice that have been treated with chemicals or hormones they should be fine, but I am a worry wort and would shy away from any that have been genetic modified for ontogentics (cancers) and such.
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1.1 ball pythons
1.1 kingsnakes
0.1 crazy cat
?.? ASFs
1.0 husband

Well pitoon.. I know strickly and get his pricelist regularly and know people who work in his facility.. I am in Dade county would love to meet up with ya sometime.. As far as lessers and butters go... I believe the BEL they both produce are not identical in quality just like a mojaves BEL.. You see more lessers then butters around because butters are a newer morph.. If they were the same they would be called the same.. Similar yes, identical NO!

As far as the bloody rats go.. They come from a breeding facility they breed them there only.. Then they get shipped out around the US.. They useally toss out the rats I get due to the fact they are the surplus.. I know there is no testing at this facility and the rats arent tampered with there. They actually breed about 30 different species of rats and mice... I order my rats from Loxahatchee Herps usually and I dont have this bleeding problem thats why I was questioning it.. The facility doesnt like me asking to many questions and I dont want to burn my connection due to the fact im buying small and medium rats by the hundreds for average or less then $.25 each.. They have had peta show up to thier facility so they are very uptight and closed to the public all together.. I think the diet they feed the rodents are somewhat more organic.. I believe someone posted here a few months ago talking about medical rats are like "to foo" rats..

The original reason I posted here was for advice only.. No smart comments and not to start a huge thread. But seems like every time I post something up here it gets blown up... I figured more people had this problem with the rats and was just wanting to see if there was a known solution.. But im done posting here I will just stand back and read from now on...

JBugg

I think I have noticed that my frozen rats bleed more the longer they have been kept frozen. If that make sence. Not sure why it happens, that is just what I have seen.
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Coolluigi

1.0 Pastel
1.0 Yellowbelly
0.2 Normal
0.1 Spider
1.2 Het VPI Axanthic (Babies are getting bigger!!)
and soon to be more. *fingers crossed*

Jbugg,
it would be cool to meet up but i left the sunshine state when i was 18 and uncle sam sent me overseas. been here ever since. still got family in port st lucie, ft pierce, miami, carol city, ft myers, cape coral.

where are you located?

email me direct if you want to chat.

i'll stop busting the chops on the lesser/butter conflict......but only for a few days

Pitoon

I breed Ball Pythons year round and it doesn't seem to matter. Neonates are hatched from March thru Dec...Thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com