Reptile & Amphibian Forums

ok so it's on the table............

who thinks the lesser and butter are the same morph?

who thinks they are different?

please explain your reasons..........

I SAY BOTH ARE THE SAME THING JUST DIFFERENT LINES........

Pitoon

I agree, same morph. They look too much the same to be a different morph. And they produce the same looking super.

Same - cause they just are.
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Tosha
JET Pythons
Toshas Blog

Herp Medicine does not equal a bottle of Baytril - Dr. Scott Stahl

If Lessers and Butters are the same morph just from different lines, then I would think it is the same scenario for Black Pastels and Cinnies. Unless someone can give me a definite difference between these two?
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1.1 ball pythons
1.1 kingsnakes
0.1 crazy cat
?.? ASFs
1.0 husband

Lessers and butters are definitely the same thing. Cinnies and black pastels? No. I see a clear difference there. I think if you took a bunch of adult black pastels and adult cinnies and through them in a bucket, you'd be able to pick them both out. Super cinnies are more brown, super black pastels are darker. It's pretty clear there's a difference, even if they are allelic.

This is what I say also. Butters and Lessers are similar to one another like Black Pastels and Cinnamon Pastels. Same but different. I sure hope this is the last time this is discussed or argued over. Doesnt it make you tired to keep going on and on with this silly and very unimportant debate.
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JEM from sunny AZ.

2.20 Normals
5.9 Pastels
3.6 Normal Spiders
1.3 Orange/Butterscotch Ghosts(BallPython777 Mark Petros)
1.1 Spiders 100% het Ghost(thanks Mark Petros)
0.2 Spiders 66% het Ghost
0.3 66% het Orange Ghost
0.1 Pastel Ghost
0.1 Super Pastel 100% het Ghost
2.0 Albino
1.0 Caramel Albino
0.4 100% het for Albino
0.5 50% het for Albino
0.4 Yellow Bellies
1.2 100% het for Clowns
1.2 Cinnamons
1.2 100% het for Pied
0.3 66% het for Pied
1.3 Mojaves
1.1 Beautiful Black Pastels(thanks Gulf Coast Reptiles)
1.1 BumbleBees(thanks for the AWESOME Bees Marc Bailey)
1.0 Super Pastel
0.1 Chocolates(Thanks Brandon of Priceless Pythons)
1.1 Lessers
2.1 Fire's(Thanks Brandon of Priceless Pythons)
1.2 High White Calico's(Thanks Brent from BRB)
1.1 SpotNoses(Thanks Brandon of Priceless Pythons)
1.0 Enchi
1.0 Orange Ghost
1.0 Pinstripe
0.1 Lemon Blast
1.0 Vanilla Ghost(Thanks again GCR for all the great snakes)

17 Tarantulas
Last but most Important 2.2 Children

the point is why do some people think they are different yet some people think they are the same.........while both having different prices???

they both make the same exact super.....and i bet you if you put 10 of each lessers/butters in a tub you WILL not be able to tell them apart 100%

lessers/butters may vary in appreance just like how pastels vary, but at the end produce the same thing......and they are the same thing.

Pitoon

Same morph different line.

Super lesser looks like a super butter.

Platty daddy looks like a butter daddy.

Lesser pin(king pin) looks like a butter pin.

Lesser pastel looks like a butter pastel.

The list goes on....

Cheers

I still like Butters more though.
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1.1 ball pythons
1.1 kingsnakes
0.1 crazy cat
?.? ASFs
1.0 husband

lessers and butters may be the same, but i can (sometimes) tell the difference. butters seem more yellow. cinnies and black pastels are definitely not the same. i can always tell the difference. the two forms of pewter look especially different.

Ok how much research has been put into proving your opinions?? Ok a butter pastel and lesser pastel look the same? Did you breed a butter to a pastel one year then the next year breed a lesser to the same pastel to compare???

Is it possible that the butter and lesser looked similar so they made similar offsprings? YES

There is good examples of each butter and lesser animals. Then there are others who arent so high quality which can be easily confused..

For example you have bright A grade pastels and then you have low quality brown pastels.

Now I will admit butters and lessers are very similar but different blood lines so they are named different.. So they are different even if they produce very similar supers.

As far as cinnys and black pastels goes they are similar also I have seen some that look the same.. They seem to be lighter and darker variations of the morphs, which effects the quality of the supers.. Same with butters and lessers..

Why dont everyone post pictures of their butters and their lessers so we can see the variation between the 2 and the variation within them selfs..

Butters are newer and seem to be going for more so at this point I would consider them more desirable but not necessarily more better it depends on the quality of the specific animal.

I have butters and more on the way!!!

JBUGG

Jbugg

I dunno what I think. I can tell a difference. I think lesser have much more of a.... faded pattern. I guess thats how I see it. Most of the butters I have seen have a much more yellow pattern I think. I dunno, my guess would be that they are different lines, but alot of you guys have more experence than I do....
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Coolluigi

1.0 Pastel
1.0 Yellowbelly
0.2 Normal
0.1 Spider
1.2 Het VPI Axanthic (Babies are getting bigger!!)
and soon to be more. *fingers crossed*

Well, I must say this is preplexing...can this ever be resolved is there not a definitive information source.
I will explain..The lesser was frst produced by Ralph Davis by breeding Ralphs Platty to a normal,1/2 the babies were lessers because they did not have the high degree of fading as the platty parent. Thus we have the lesser.
And then enters Mark and Kim Bell VIP (I think) who produce a Butter from a different wild-caught bloodline than Ralphs, "Platty Daddy". Two lessers make a blue-eyed leucistic.
Now I dont know if there has been a "super" form of the butters made yet. BUT!!! If that pairing yeilds a blue-eyed leucistic then they must be the same...but my guess is that the eyes would not be blue but red thus they would be different.... Just my opinion....MARK SISCO

Not vip Thats tracy barker sorry

super butter = solid white snake with blue eyes, they are the same morph just different lines, you must remember that Ralph also has a wild caught "butter".
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Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, an amel tiger retic female, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

It's a rhetorical answer. Different lines -- same morph. Different morphs -- same allele. They're brothers -- they're cousins. They're not the same -- they're not different. You're both right. Let it go.

So is the the same deal with the mojave then?
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Coolluigi

1.0 Pastel
1.0 Yellowbelly
0.2 Normal
0.1 Spider
1.2 Het VPI Axanthic (Babies are getting bigger!!)
and soon to be more. *fingers crossed*

now your asking the hard question lol... Butters, lessers, mojaves, all produce BEL so im guessing its gonna be said that they are all the same... Even tho they DONT look the same in the best representations of each of the morphs.

Lesser-Lighted blushed brown
Butter-Bright blushed yellow
Mojave- more easily recognized

Why settle for LESSers when you can have BETTERS.. Ooops I mean BUTTERS!!!!

I Can,t believe it,s not butter !!!!!!!!

HAHAHA.....

True so true...
Believe in the butters its better!
Terry I cant wait til next month to pick up mine at your show. Still waiting on those after shed pics of the females..

: )

JBugg!!

Go down to the butterblast pic and one of them is in that pic.Terry