Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I for some reason marvel at this discussion. In my experiences, healthy monitors are colorful and depressed or unhealthy monitors are NOT. UVA or UVB or natural sunlight has nothing to do with it.

We can take a beautiful colorful monitor and keep it poorly and it becomes drab. Then take good care of it and it will regain color.

To me, drab equals unhealthy, so if I have a drab animal, I look to its care, not to a bulb.

Take these three, they are three times the size they were hatched at. They have never had anyother bulb but a 25watt incadesent bulb. Yet they are very colorful. In fact, how much more colorful can they be.

If I put UV bulbs on them, how much more would you expect?

The reality is, I can do this all day for days with different monitors of different species. I find it odd that folks blame drab lifeless monitors on litebulbs. In my experience its simply poor care and yes I am capable of poor care. So its not me against you. Its simply poor care verses good care.

I often say, listen to your monitors, yet folks ask how do you do that. Well this is how. If your monitor is lifeless or drab, do something about it.

The problem is, folks are told what is good, so they do it, and if that does not work, they blame something else. It must be a litebulb or larrys fault. Folks, own it, you take care of your monitors, so be responsible. Try things, do stuff, if something supports progress, then do more. Thats how I am were I am. I listened to the monitors, If they grew fast, I supported that. If they multiclutched, I supported that. If they reached sexual maturity fast, I supported that. If they did GREAT without UV bulbs or without a varied diet did great with lites on 24/7 I supported that.

All the time I was responding to my monitors success, there were folks ALWAYS saying what I was doing was wrong. I ignore them. My monitors were doing better then anyone expected, set all manner of records in all areas, and WHAT I AM DOING IS WRONG.

Well it may be wrong to you, but its not wrong to the monitors.

These days, I do not spend the time with the monitors that I once did. Yet, they all every single female keeps laying eggs. Only now, I rarely dig them up. Yes, I hardly do anything, yet the monitors are thriving. All the while those folks who say its wrong, have no progress to talk about. Yes, I do question this.

The one poster below, many years ago said my monitors are all going to die because I did not use UV BULBS, and all his are someday going to do great. Yet, mine did not die and are still doing great in spite of my neglect. I ask, what has his done????? What has UV done for them???????

This has been commonplace on these forums, those that whine and say monitors do this and that, have no results to back them, yet I do not use or do the things they say and I STILL have tons of results. In short, my monitors have LIFE EVENTS, that is, they are hatched here, grow up, pair up or live in groups, reproduce on a steady and repeatitive basis, life a long life, dig, burrow, climb, interact, etc. And I am wrong????

Someday I pray one of you that make these claims can back up their talk with 1/1000th of what our monitors have done. I would love that. It may make me take better care of my monitors. But until them, PRODUCE RESULTS, then open your mouths. Or better put, walk the walk, then you can talk the talk. Until then, your only squeaky wheels.

So in an attempt of friendly competition, can anyone match these colors(done without UV BULBS OR SUN.

So please, will some of you folks that credit bulbs with this or that, SHOW SOMETHING. hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha I know, I sound mad, but I am not, I just want you to back up your "theories" with something other then the guy on the north pole ate a south american salamander and it made him more colorful. Cheers and bring it on baby!

I'll take all 3 please!

I agree with you completely Frank about how UV bulbs are not necessary, IMO people just want to avoid the fact that their doing something wrong and blame other things for there mistakes. Then there are also people who want to due the best thing for there animal, then they hear pet stores telling them its necessary and then they buy a few $30 uv bulbs.

Nice pics by the way, you got any pics of those same ones as adults?

So in an attempt of friendly competition, can anyone match these colors(done without UV BULBS OR SUN

I know my pictures cant match those as i suck as photographer and mine not as colorful as flavi and gouldi. You got any pics of your Argus?
Here are my Argus that have not been raised on UV or sunlight their whole life's. I will try to get nicer pics of them

only one that even comes close to those is the 3way cross that i got from you

Bryan

Nice Argus, And you also could have explained, the dark on your argus is from the type of dirt in your enclosures. Admit it, you use dark soil, hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

IF you would switch to lite colored UVA soil, your monitors would be much more colorful(joke) Cheers

Thanks Frank
I just erased what i wrote, gotta start all over why did i have to answer the door.
Yep i have them on regular black dirt with some leaf litter on top, I will be changing the substrate when im done building my new larger cage for one of the pairs. I will be putting some reddish-orange colored dirt (if i can get some) in it as it looks more appealing to me and looks as it will due the same job as regular back yard dirt. The enclosure will be 8x6x6 or 8x8x6 with 1.5-2.5 feet of dirt.
Frank due you still work with Argus as the only time i ever saw pics of them was when you were comparing hatchling (Argus,crosses,flavi and gouldi). I would love to see some pics of them whenever you get a chance
You should send those baby gouldi and flavi to me one day, i wouldn't mind adding them to what i currently have.

Bryan

How about this get a x-ray of a indoor monitor on UV light and a x-ray of indoor monitor thats never had one. Same species same approximate age would have to be used.

Well to answer Bard, we have had couple instances that I suspected calicum problems and took a monitor to the vet to have it checked. So far, there bones were fine.

Besides, your suggestion is not smart. I am not having any problems, which means, the monitors are performing great. Why would I want to do that? To spend money so boneheads can come up with some other approach. So far, thats all folks do, I have superior results in ALL AREAS, and you question that with what? an Xray?

To me thats funny. Heres the deal, if you have a car that tops out at 120mph, and its topping out at 120 or higher, why would I want to have it checked to see whats wrong with it. My monitors are doing what they are suppose to do. In fact, its the folks that claim UV bulbs are better, that have problems or think about preventing problems that have or have not occurred.

What really bothers me about many of you folks is, you go by numbers, this is better then that, that is superior to this. YET those numbers have nothing to do with the monitors actual results, its all CRAP printed by someone else for advertisment reasons. You really should go by your actual results. But there lays the problem, most do not have any results one way or another. So they rely on polar bears or something else unrelated.

I post excellent results and folks ignore it. Perfect way to learn if you ask me. I really have no interest if those folks learn or not. I do feel sorry for their animals. Cheers

Frank,

I have never said anything is wrong with your indoor or outdoor care. I do think you have the best results.

What Im asking about, is if the animals may benefit from added UVB/UVA lite when keeping theme indoors, when the animals come from a area witch has one of the world highest UV exposure and visible ligth.

You say No. Ill try with UVB and see what I feel with time.

A friend of mine breed Varanus tristis orientalis, he used a mix of HQI and HQL lamps. A large temp gradient, the cage was 6 x 2 x 3. The room seldom went under 25celcius.

Had the lites on for 18 hours a day, feed the beens out of the animals rodents, roaches, larva, crickets and grasshoppers and got 79 eggs from 3 females in less than 2 months. It was one monster female and 2 smaller younger ones.

So that way works very good too.

And what Im trying to say about lite, your regular bulbs does not give of much daylite after a bit of googeling:
A well litt room is about 400 lux from regular bulbs.
A sunndy day in the pilbara region or Arizona is about 100.000 lux. Is it healthy for animals to be kept so dark?

We are all living things, and if we are dayactive most of us have a link between sun exposure and good health.
Witch is what Iv tried to link too what is known about humans who live as far north as I do. And the health problems we get because of that. A German I know moved up here and got so winterdepressed it was unhealthy.

This is things I think about, and want to experiment with after all the basics of heat gradient and enough food is provided to my monitors.

Frank thank you for participating in this discussion! Iv learnt alot and made even further tougths about reptile captive care.

For instance,Iv learnt at another site that a keeper of boelens witness a difference in behaviour of his pythons after he started to use Mega Ray. Better feeding and more active.
To me that is interresting as it couples with what Iv seen at friends places.

But I have the acid test going, I have 0.0.5 glauertis going.
I feed the beens out of theme, rigth now they only have a good tempgradient and alot of food. Soon they will have a better cage with UVB exposure. So if Im lucky I could have the first eggs in 8months or so. They are a month old now. This is if I manage to keep my conditions great.
And that I have 4.1 atleast.

Bård

Again Bart, monitors are not high lite intensity animals. If you went to watch them in Oz. they move early mourning and late afternoon /evening. If its hot as it normally is, they rarely come out of the shadows.

And example is, for every one out, there are a hundred in. Many wonder how I could find so many varanids, hmmmmmmmm I don't look in the sun, or on the roads. I find them in low lite.

If you really want to test something, test their ability to see in bright lite. They cannot see. They only see movement in bright lite.

Again we have animals outdoors and It would take ten minutes to proof that. I can hold my hands out and make shadows in the cage and monitors chase the shadows. In the shade, they are very accute and see without error.

Also the point becomes function. If animals kept without UV or bright lite, OUT PERFORM those with bright lite, why would you think bright lite is better? Again, I do not understand what better would be for MY animals.

I had 2 tristis females lay 11 clutches in 11 weeks, then one female rested a month and laid a clutch of 18 eggs, my largest clutch. All indoors with one 45Watt halogen bulb. again all eggs were fertile and most hatched. The clutch of 18 all hatched.

We call this a run out. We see it with many females.

I never thought you are criticising me or my methods, I just wonder what you think BETTER it??????? What is that. You see some many UV believers never mention what better is. They say, they can do better, better at what? Please show me what better is, so I can understand.

Here I showed some colorful varanids, and ask what How UV bulbs would make them more colorful. I asked those who use UV bulbs to show monitors with more color or brighter color or more healthy, or that have better results.

You must understand, I have been doing this since 91 and no one has shown me what better is yet.

Most that know how to care for monitors tried UV bulbs and shortly thereafter throw them away. Or at least when they burn out(one month)

I always say, your better off spending your money on bigger better cages and MORE FOOD. As that is the key.

Also Please post some pics of your wonderful animals. Any kind, not just varanids. As you know, I love all reptiles. Cheers

Hi Frank,

Years ago, we didn't have the fancy UVB lights that are around today, at least not readily available to Joe breeder, yet we were able to reproduce species. I agree with both sides but we must be careful with how much UVB we throw down. I do think natural light is very beneficial yet we cannot guess the amounts of UV in that spectrum that would be utilized by a species indoors, that is nearly impossible for any given period unless you put UVB sensors on species and recorded data for years (has this been done?). So you must look at who has proved what and with what species and then gleen all you can from them. Reproduction, growth rates, coloration, health, all aspects of good husbandry, and not necessarily the types of lamps purchased.
Frank, I never found any Flavis in the morning but they were all over the roads and in the sands mid day. Car registered high 30s and over 40C out at hottest, it was hot. These guys were getting ping'd all day by cars on the roads very sad, at least 10 DORS in 3 days on one small stretch of lassiter. There were a few other species out but the flavis were abundant during the hottest part of the day when I was there. I suspect they must be adundant in general out there to suffer such losses on the roads and still be around today.
Varius was similar, found them at late morning to early afternoon. Here are some pics...

Again your missing the point, I have kept and bred thru many many generations all the varanids your talking about, with a high level of success. As high as anyone. Yet I use no uv bulbs to raise any of them to adult size. And never use UV bulbs on indoor anything. Yet our results are cutting edge.

So why would I think UV bulbs are needed? Until one of you folks surpass our results in some measurable way. Or even produced some manner of measurable results, I cannot in clear and open mind think varanids need or benefit for those bulbs.

This sir is the point. I have proved its not needed. Now you have to prove it has a benefit. Its really that simple. I would be stupid to listen to you folks over my 18 years of superior results. Cheers

Yes Frank, I was agreeing with you...
Did you have your coffee yet? One has to look at who has done what and therein lies the proof. Cheers

hahahahahaha I feel I can only offer a form letter, as it appears most have some odd agendas. Where proof and history and results are meaningless.

The truth is, many here think words can override results. As such, I would be a fool or stupid to come with with, oh yea, UV may have some benefits.

I am not judging those folks, but how smart are those that think some theory or hope is going to override all my successful experience.

Bard was very right, if they, anyone of them actually produced some benefit above what we have seen, I would jump on it so fast, they would think I did it first. hahahahahahahahahahaha. The truth is, I wish them well and hope they find a superior method or tool, but until them, I will go with what I have been doing and I will advance in the ways I see. As those fine folks are way back, hoping to find their way.

What I find odd is, ego. They think I have one. Yet, all they have to do to achieve my success is copy. But they would rather not. To me, thats ego.

Remember, if one of them does find a new great method, I will copy it and encorperate it in my methods. Cheers

lol.

So you do belive UV can have certain benefits.

Ok.

I try to copy you, but I will add UV.

Do you have a picture of your old Glauerti breeding setups?

So that I can duplicate you to the T!

Thanks for a great debate!

Bård

Even in the shade during daylight hrs during the summer it still gets pretty bright in Australia. I know they don't spend all day basking in the hot, hot sun, but it's still bright even in the shade out in Arizona and Oz and some other places that gets really hot at certain time of year. I know someone who has a Vietnamese leaf turtle that has an eye defect on one of the eye. The animal couldn't see the prey very well so she had to dangle the worms and food right in front of her so she would see them and be able to eat them. Well, as time went on, the problem got worst and failure to thrive started to set in. She notice that her room wasn't as bright as the dinning room where she has kept all her other herps, so she thought she moved the turtle cage into the room hoping that it would get better with real sunlight shinning through the window all around the room. And by the way she had a UVB lighting for the turtle, too, and it wasn't doing well because it wasn't bright enough. As soon as she moved it into that room, the turtle bounced back to life and started eating again, and all she did was moving the cage to a location where it was really bright from real sunlight.

Hi Frank,

I do not belive a monitor kept in captivity without heat and JUST UVB would do great. It feels like alot of people here that is what I think! I want to give my monitors BOTH!

The point you make that they do not lay out in the sun at the warmest times of day is very important.
But even if they are running around in the shade. They will have a UVB exposure of some degree. As I said you get tan even under a parasol.

"Posted by: lizardheadmike at Thu May 14 23:21:18 2009 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ] [ Show All Posts by lizardheadmike ] Share Send a tweet to Twitter!

Hello Todd,
I think this says it all: "Photosensitive proteins and circadian rhythms are believed to have originated in the earliest cells, with the purpose of protecting the replicating of DNA from high ultraviolet radiation during the daytime" And you are saying more UV is better? Frank makes sense on this- Mike"

Yes you are correct, but what kind of UV exposure did the earth have at that time? What was our ozone layer like. Maybe the exposure was many times higher than what we have now!?

And that organismes with time has turned the problem of UV exposure over to something good like: D3 production and higher calcium absobtion. Melatonin production etc.
Darwinism : It is not the strongest or smartest that will survive but the one who adapts.... Make you UV your friend instead of you enemy.

I know Id DIE without the sun/lite/uvb/uva.
So would you, you would not have anything to eat.

So as the Uvguide.co.uk did, they took different reptile skins and tried what UV go trough. And it was a big difference from day/nigth and jungle/desert adapted animals.
That is adaptation in best darwinisme style!

I think the UVB they get in nature could be helpfull for theme, if it makes my monitors produce their own D3 and maybe even me abel too absorb more calcium. Im all for it.

If I spend 190usd on a UVB lamp that works for 18 months, that is nil compared to food cost. So Ill try.
And Ill use ceramic heaters when the UVB goes off, so the hotspot is consitant.

I was told the Berlin Zoo has had alot of problems with their Komodos, kept indoors. After new ligths was added Ultra vita Lux (I belive, this was in 2001/2), they got better.
I spoke with another friend of mine yeasterday about this subject, and he told me he has read articles about Komodos in captivity having the same calcium deficient sceleton as the pilbariensis from the London fellow.

I tougth of this is a good test to see:

Take a monitor that is kept under a halogen, and one kept under a UVB source.
And check the D3 leves of both and then check the bone density after a sett amount of months.
Same food, same heat gradient in both cages.
On is on a day/nigth UVB cycle / ceramic heat elemnts at nigth.

and the other 24/7 halogen...

I like to know, and no one has been able to lay edivence on way or the other that animals in captivity fair better with/without UVB. IM NOT TALKING ABOUT EGG PRODUCTION.
But that animal it self.

Ill take Bob word for it, if his pilbaras doesnt have problems with using the front legs, UVB bulbs are cheap no matter what.

Im not a varanid psycologist, but I know all animals and humans keep on breeding and eating eventough our living conditions are not perfect. As Frank said, a halfway healthy bird will lay eggs if it has a nest.

Maybe the people that use UVB maybe doesnt have the "varanid mind" you Frank, that would then be the problem.
Not that they use UVB...

But reptile pictures as you asked for:

Here is a picture of my hopefull breeding group of glauertis

Here is a world first I produced last year a Axanthic Carpet Python:

My newest US import: Paradigm Boa

And a new type of burmese pythons, the dwarf type. REALY aggresive buggers. That also musk. Smells real bad.

Todd, I think we are correct on the UVB matter
Living things do better in a natural ligth specter.

Thanks to all for a debate about UVB bulbs that gives me many new angels to think about this theory.

Bård

Again your missing the point, I have kept and bred thru many many generations all the varanids your talking about, with a high level of success. As high as anyone. Yet I use no uv bulbs to raise any of them to adult size. And never use UV bulbs on indoor anything. Yet our results are cutting edge.

So why would I think UV bulbs are needed? Until one of you folks surpass our results in some measurable way. Or even produced some manner of measurable results, I cannot in clear and open mind think varanids need or benefit for those bulbs.

This sir is the point. I have proved its not needed. Now you have to prove it has a benefit. Its really that simple. I would be stupid to listen to you folks over my 18 years of superior results. Cheers

Heat, gradient, substrate and LOADS of food?? What am I missing?

You know what, Im not missing anything. Is there something between the lines Im supposed to read?

You say that Im missing the point consistently, what am I missing?

And that you have extremly good results without UVB and visisble ligth? Because that is also the truth!

Ill do just what you do BUT with UVB and lite.

Your animals look healthy I cannot say anything else, so did the ones from London.
It was internaly their bones where bad.
I dont want that.

MAYBE if I do what you do UVB I can have animals witch are healthier theme selvs.

I will give UVB the benfit of the doubt.

Do you belive its highly unlikely that UVB/UVB exposure to monitors have any important process in production of D3 to increase the amount calcium absorbed by a varanid in captivity or in nature?

This is the question all my writing in this tread boils down too!

Bart, read my posts. You seem to be trying to get me to say that what your thinking about is better then, what my long established methods that do not enclude(UB bulbs) have showed better results then any of you, with your UB bulbs. I find that highly illogical.

I cannot in good mind recomend something that I have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, is not needed and has shown no benefit with my animals or my methods.

So think about this. Why would I recomend UV bulbs?????? I have no reason too.

Aside from those bulbs, I guess you do not understand my posts or have read my pass posts.

I treat keeping varanids, NOT AS BIOLOGY, but I address them directly with Ethlogy. I work behavior. With varanids, the biological needs are simple and strait forward. But they are highly complicated behaviorally.

What I do are day to day, infield decisions. In my mind, this is where I achieve my success. Simply put, if an animal, any animal wants to live, it will if given a chance. I try to give them a reason to want to live. It seems many "talk" about a color or a lite, I am concerned with LIFE. To give them a life.

Thats why I PREACH, "life events" over all other established terms like longevity, photoperiod, etc.

Such things as temps, bulbs, lites, etc, are only SMALL tools that support life events. THEY ARE NOT LIFE events.

I look at what each individual is striving to do, not a species or asian, or sub-genus, or ozzie, or indo, or african, THE INDIVIDUAL. Then I look at them as groups, IF THEY FORM GROUPS.

Many observers complain, FR keeps his indos like his ackies, etc. YES I DO, I treat each the same, I do what the monitors wants, not what some book or person with a poor keeping record says.

One PHD that says he knows everything about monitors, yet has "hands of stone" when it comes to the living animal. Hes simply no good with the living animal. Yet he says, I know nothing about monitors, except I am very very good with them. All you have to do is look at the last two sentences. When comes to living animals, I am right, I have positive results. When it comes to a test he has written, then I may fail. Only because I already know better. He and I live in different worlds, nothing wrong with that. But why do they try and pick on me, you know, the successful one?????

You see, most of you think you love the animals, but I fear most of you love the people who write about the animals. I know.

I love the animals, and I go by what they say, not by what you would say or any fine keeper. After all, you are only a keeper, you or any author are not a monitor. I do not love you, I love the monitors. (love equals respect)

So yes, the key to my success is not temps or species, its my love of reptiles. Its not that I do not like or love any of you, your just not the monitors(reptiles).

I hear this question often, should I go by what the monitors wants or by what I read the monitor wants. Hmmmmmmmmmm THis is where my prejudice takes over. ANYONE WHO GOES BY WHAT THEY READ OVER WHAT THE MONITOR WANTS IS A FOOL.

The truth is, I have no idea why you want me to say UV BULBS ARE GOOD OR NEEDEd, when my highly successful experience says, UV BULBS ARE NOT NEEDED, so why would I say they are?? And BART, I want you to answer that. Cheers

Frank, Not Frans..

From the start of this all, I just wanted to know if a monitor could benefit from UV exposure. And after alot of discussion you said they maybe could to a very small degree.
And Im cool with that, I hope you are too.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Rigth now I keep the glauertis like you do(more or less)
Alot of heat, and gradient. Basking in the 50-60c.
Alot of food, mostly pinky pieces as the cricket breeder has large problems sendin me the order I have in.
And alot of hides, natural cork tubes.
And they are growing like weeds! So your method works without a doubt!

A wish, far beyound UVB, as that we in Scandinavia had the same pleasure of getting 1000crickets on the door for 16usd. Witch is a dream.

Bard (not Bart)

Hi Bard, I did not say it could benefit, even a little bit. Not for me and my situation. It could for you and your understanding level and situation. Or others, Just not for me.

I built a baby raise up rack in 1991, it included incandesent lites in the cages, heat pads under the cages, and fixtures for vita-lites(a sun mimic at the time) Very quickly(a year or so) I dissconnected all the vita-lites, and I still use that rack I built in 91. You see, this is a sign of good design. I have no reason to change it, other then take the UV part out.

My cattle trough design, again started in 91, they are still in use today, UNCHANGED. Again a design that works. I have found no need to change them. Remember, I am a creature of change. I even fix stuff thats not broken, just to make it work better(tool time)

Of course, other cages have gone thru change, as they needed to be refined.

The point is, a cage is only to allow, you the keeper, the ability to support your animal. To put in or take out, what may be needed by the animal. Big doors, so big things can go in and out. The ability to provide deep substrate is KEY.

For instance(read this Bob) the company who bred Pilbaras and kimberlys, used freedom breeder cages and did not provide deep substrate and only used nest boxes. They did use UV bulbs. Their females were constantly experienced Calicum problems(can be explained better by Bob). To me, the Calicum problems were not related to lite bulbs, but to stressed out females. I have a HUGE fan of offerring a CHOICE of nesting areas and letting females pick what then need, when they need it. Not Forcing them into nest boxes because there are no other "Better" places. In these cases, they would keep the rest of the cage dry and only the nest box moist. So it forced the females to do something they did not want to do. I feel this is the most important aspect in keeping monitors. MUCH LIKE BIRDS. Without nests, they are helpless. Not having a nest they can choose and make is VERY STRESSFUL TO VARANIDS

Again, biologists miss this because they are biologists. Ethlogist(study of behavior) would consider these types of things important, in fact more important then physical adaptions. Biologists take long noses or tails or claws, and make the world out it those. Yet, do not consider what is in the reptiles head. Behavior DRIVES ADAPTION. Nesting is unseen and a product of behavior, so its ommitted by biologists. Sad, as nesting is the driving force with varanid reproduction.

So if your really interested in breeding varanids, concentrate of nesting, the rest is simple. Your friend, Frank

Hi Frank,

Sorry for not responding earlier, but yeasterday was our national day, and I worked all day loooong.
And the UVA/UVB gave me nice tan btw..

...So Im not saying UVB would benefit you or your animals, but maybe mine will from my ligths.

About substrat.

My cage, witch is temporar.

Its 3 x 1,5 x 1,5 LDH

A stick goes from left to rigth and I have cork flats layed on it and up to it so they can climbe and bask on the cork.
The bottom is covered with 2-3inches of humus.

And the glauerti never touch the substrat.
They run over it and seek up in higth as soon as possible.
They did fit into holes in the cork that was cheewed by zoophobas. So they hide there under the heat, seeming very happy.
They have now grown so big that they cannot fit into the pencil holes anymore. So Im going to make a small verison rete rack for theme.

The earlier glaurties Iv had has done the same, go into thigth spots or up high. Iv never seen theme digg, but Iv never had gravid females either.

I did have some ackies a while back, and those dug and dug, and pressed under thick tiles I had put onto the substrat.

They are called Kimberly rock monitors, do they reside in stone breaks or similiar? Where they can press into thigth cracks?
Instead of reatreating to a burrow?

Glaurtis doesnt seem like happy diggers to me, or from what Iv seen. Im not saying they do NOT digg, but if they can choose between a crack and digging a hole. They will choose the crack and press in there.

Thanks
Bård

ABout what we understand. Normally its based on us, not the animal. Kimberlys are saxicolis, which means they us things above the ground, as well as the ground. They use rocks,boulders, and their crevices, SO DO ACKIES, TRISTIS, GLEBOPALMAS, STORRS, WESTERN STORRS, Scalaris, Kings, gilleni, caudolineatus, and more.

All of these use all such things as trees, rock, and ground, depending on local and NEED. I have seen ackies, 20 feet up in trees, and tristis living in holes in the ground, ETC ETC ETC.

The problem is, someone finds them in a tree and they are arboreal. Or on a rock and they are rock monitors. Well, all odatria are then rock monitors, or ground monitors, or tree monitors, or bush monitors. They use all these tools to support their lives.

If you would offer monitors what they recongize, they will use it when the need arises. Give them the substrate they "know" how to use, they will use it. If not, they will not use it. It does not matter if they make burrows or not.

You have to ask yourself, do they know what this stuff I am giving them is dirt or substrate. Then How would they know?

For instance, NORMALLY, where ALL these monitors occur, it gets very hot, so they are driven down into the earth. I do not care what kind they are. So they come out and use rocks or trees, when conditions are right, only to be driven back into the earth in the heat of the day. Or in oz, there is wet and dry, during the dry, they are in the earth, period. Of course during the wet and floods, they are high in trees or posts or anything to allow them to dry out and not drown.

Then comes the ability to find prey, Heres were these species differ, kimberlys are developed to find the same prey as all the others, but is tight places. They HUNT cracks and loose bark. Its here they find insects, geckos, lizards and other small monitors to consume. They have a very unique ability to chase lizards out of cracks and catch them. While ackies are not flat enough or fast enough, so they will resort to digging up their prey. They are very good at this. do you get the picture. Their adaptions are specific and not overall. All will also catch prey by ambush, or anywhere thats easy.

Overall, all these monitors HAVE to use the earth. The question becomes, what kind of earth? Each has a range of soil types they know(instinctually) If you offer them something they know. They use it. If not, they will not. So all your saying is, you gave your kimberlys, something they did not "know" or did not give them reason to use it. As in, its not hot enough in your cages to drive them down.

Now consider, the normal day in nature, all these monitors are driven down by mid day, on the vast majority of the days in their active season. Their normal behavior is, mourning gain heat to reach their physical abilties, then secure food. By mid day, its so hot, they are in cool shelters. But they will move to warmer areas if needed to digest food or heat up ovum, or heal wounds. Then early evening, they do this again. THIS SIR IS WHAT IS NATURAL AND NORMAL.

They do not spend their lifes basking. So if your monitors are always by the lites, they are YELLING AT YOU, I am not hot enough. Their TASK is to gain the heat they need without exposing themselves to danger or wasting time. Basking is dangerous. To heat up, is to allow them to live. Their life is not basking. This is very important.

So first off, if your cages are so cool that they pick up where its hot, your cages are NOT GOOD. raise the heat until they have to go down mid day. That is normal and natural for varanids.

Yes yes wild monitors will bask, hmmmmm this is so easy to predict. In early spring, where this applys, when the ground is cool and the sun is warm. Or in wet/dry season areas, during the heavy wet or the sunny day after heavy rains. Then of course in late fall, where again cool ground and warm sun occurs.

Again, even in those conditions, they only bask for very short periods. Basking is a task to allow them to LIVE. They do not live to bask.

So I ask you, let your monitors live and not have to bask.

By mid active season, there is no need to bask as they can gain all heat needed under cover. WHICH IS THEIR ACTUAL design.

Please consider, I am not yelling, I am emphasizing what these creatures really do.

To keep a monitor basking all day, is POOR SUPPORT. To force a monitor to dig and dig and dig in order to nest, is POOR SUPPORT. But so many of these things are considered good, well they are good, but only to beginer herpers who only trying to reach the first steps in understanding these animals.

Sadly, many of the academic experts, NEVER REACH THE FIRST STEP in understanding these animals. They have generic or specific terms and names for everything varanid, but somehow cannot seem to put them together and allow them to function(ethlogy, to exhibit behavior) For us, the goal is to allow them to function as monitors, to have behavior. Not be a result of a bunch of labels. Which is commonplace.

THis is the problem. You think in a manner of labels, to bask, not to dig, rock, wood, etc. When the real question is, do they COMPLETE A TASK. What are their normal tasks? are they doing them? if not, WHY? Cheers

Frank,

Thanks for giving me all this information.
Ill try to incorperate into my new cage for the glauertis that I hope I will make on thursday, if work allows it.

The room was 84,5F today, and so is the cage. Its made of aluminium so it doesnt holed heat at all.

The basking area shifts depending on the room temp, but I check the other day and it was 131F, today I guess it was 164F.

And they do not lay out in the basking area all the time 24/7, some choose to do it for some minuttes. Then runs under or into the cork, away, hangs on the wall closest to the heat or on the oposite end of the cage witch is the same as the room temp.

I understand that they probably need to get even warmer, and I will give theme that option in the new cage.

And a better substrate.

What kind do you recommend? what kind of mix sand /soil/humus or what you want!
The dept for substrat will be about 12inches is that sufficient?

Bård

I have two necropsy reports from old male varanus flavirufus that were NOT kept with UV bulbs and they did not have any signs of bone problems. In fact the pathologists were surprised how strong the bones were. These necropsy's were done at a veterinary teaching hospital.

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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

I agree Bard.

Why would anyone want to keep beautiful expensive moniors in a dim, artificially lit enviroment? Uv or no UV.
(Give them dirt so they can burry,.. but heaven forbid.. don't let them get a glimpse of anything approaching natural daylight when they pop their heads up.)

News flash, were are not in the 70's anymore, a little thing called "technology" now allows us to have artificial lighting that can much closer approximate natural sunlight, why not use it?

Plus, everyone knows that UV rays stimulate melanin production in the skin. Melanin = color. Its not worth even bothering to debate anymore. Its just a fact.

I am always puzzled as to why have any animal to live in an enviroment that totally neglects the animals natural circadian rythms? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circadian_rhythm
All that makes me picture is a ghastly overcrowded henhouse that is lit 24/7 for the sole production of eggs round the clock until the animals burn out.

There are many ways to measure success. I respect 100% everyones way They measure success, but that does not make any One 100% correct.

Cheers.
Todd G.
Link

Hello Todd,
I think this says it all: "Photosensitive proteins and circadian rhythms are believed to have originated in the earliest cells, with the purpose of protecting the replicating of DNA from high ultraviolet radiation during the daytime" And you are saying more UV is better? Frank makes sense on this- Mike

Some of you are saying maybe UVB can be better than NO UVB. Maybe it can but you'd have to equal his results before you could test that. Until you even become equal to Frank how can you worry about being better (better results).

I think what Frank is trying to get across is that you (UVB people) have pigeonholed yourself by worrying about UVB and are bypassing all other important aspects of husbandry.

For instance all those mentioning how so and so animal had uvb added and it all of a sudden flourished. Have you thought about the fact that multiple variables were changed when you added UVB? Higher heat maybe? This is something you can test. Change the UVB bulbs with bulbs that equaled their heat output and see what happens.

I didn't take Franks word at face value I always test what he says. I don't ponder it (well sometimes I do) I DO it. For instance... I worked in a reptile specialty store recently. One of the first things I changed was how the animals were heated. When UVB bulbs went out I didn't replace them. I gave almost everything access to high temps and low temps, better hide spots, and more food. Our livestock did a complete turn around. We stopped having losses and things started breeding. My bosses liked that and were shocked when they realized I had stopped using UVB. The only problem was our feed costs increased exponentially. Maybe that's why I was layed off LOL.

My point is that we have to have some measure of success before we can start making claims about how a method is superior to a persons who is doing something different. Frank can come off sounding egotistical but he has a point. The speed analogy works. He is going 120 and we're going 15, start worrying about hitting 120 before you think about hitting 150.

Again your missing the point, I have kept and bred thru many many generations all the varanids your talking about, with a high level of success. As high as anyone. Yet I use no uv bulbs to raise any of them to adult size. And never use UV bulbs on indoor anything. Yet our results are cutting edge.

So why would I think UV bulbs are needed? Until one of you folks surpass our results in some measurable way. Or even produced some manner of measurable results, I cannot in clear and open mind think varanids need or benefit for those bulbs.

This sir is the point. I have proved its not needed. Now you have to prove it has a benefit. Its really that simple. I would be stupid to listen to you folks over my 18 years of superior results. Cheers

UV is just another choice they have in the wild, if you believe they dont need it then maybe they dont? We use UVB and have never had some of the problems that some of the largest producers of the V. Pilbarensis ever had like females that loose the use of thier front legs and kinks in their tails and spines from breeding and group situations that I feel are counterproductive in captivity. From what I have seen from the few species of dwarfs and prasinus is that the females can become more territorial then the males for it is the females responsibility for the survival of the species, the males are merly sperm doners.
Bob

Nice Bob, your missing one point, the people who had problems, were commerical breeders and only cared about the bottom line. They did not provide one half of what you do. They paid people to take care of the animals.

They did not take any time or effort to notice the importance of female male interaction. Or which sex or individual is the center of social hiachy. Yes, females are, not males.

In fact for us with our care, males always die first, females have normally lived longer, even with heavy recruitment loads(high multiclutching)

You as a newbie may get tired of UV bulbs and stop using them and find your results do not change. Then what will you think?????

Again the point is, non of you have surpassed or even equaled or results. Your all working with animals we already many years ago had and have high levels of success. Cheers

Frank, I think 8 consecutive years of pilbara producing is proof in the pudding and may even be a longer run of breeding them then you even had? When I initially tried to get some in 1999 you were out of them and I have not seen you post any since? I feel to take UV out of any monitors life is a biggie [personal opinion] as they have evolved around the sun/heat longer then you or I have been here so to me it isnt even an issue or argument its common sense no brainer. Why did you ever get out of pilbaras anyway? And for the common sense factor humans do not need UV but it does create seasonal depression for some people who are deprived of it with that said for that one reason alone Im sure the monitors as all lizards benifit in some way. There is an entire website with science behind it, dont have the link handy but it shows lack of D-3 damage on green iguanas without UV and on some specimens being reversed with the proper lighting. These studys include D-3 levels pulled from the blood of iguanas with and witout the bulb and there is a big differance.
Have a good one!
Bob

Good on you Bob, no offense, we are talking about monitors, not just pilbarensis. Which I founded in this country.

You are doing great, but the conversation is its needed or to make better. So you have bred pils almost as long as I did, what about kings, caudos, gilleni, storrs, five kinds of ackies, two kinds of tristis, kimberlys, and many many generations of each.

While I really respect what you have done, To say you can challange or surpass what we have done is naive on your part.

What is funny is, I never thought I was very good as a keeper. I am always fiddling around and changing things. I guess thats how I find out the things I do. Cheers

So you have bred pils almost as long as I did, what about kings, caudos, gilleni, storrs, five kinds of ackies, two kinds of tristis, kimberlys, and many many generations of each.

Frank, I think my point is the dwarf monitor husbandry not the amount of species, As I have seen I started with one of the more demanding ones. Actually my Glauerti grow like weeds in comparison to the pilbaras along with the gilleni. I find the success of the people who follow advice on any of the forums is extremely limited at best, seen it for years now. I do what I believe and UVB is a fact of their natural envirment, not because I want it to be but it is the way they have evolved. I have seen my own customers kill pilbaras and glauerti by believeing some of the crap posted on forums in some cases?
All the best, Bob

When I'm sitting in my house, under the incandescent bulbs I use for lighting, my hair is dark brown, almost black. When I go outside it magically turns a deep shade of red.
Full spectrum lighting, or sun light brings out the true colors in any object. I don't currently use UVB lighting myself, but probably will in one of my cages just to see what happens just for [bleep]s ang giggles.
I bet this critter would look even more yellow, red and orange if I photographed it outside.

Here is a quick example, notwistanding camera functions, types, etc. was just trying to get an accurate representation of what is seen by the eye and not the camera as that can skew what is actually seen. Of course, you have to make sure the animal is at a similar temp too. You can't argue with full spectrum sun light as far as natural coloration in species but you also cannot argue with proven husbandry and what has worked.
sorry,not a varanid but had these handy just fyi.
Inside:

outside:

More to think about.

When looking at them inside to outside the colors NEVER change, just a different spectrum is REFLECTED.

The same would go for wild reptiles, they look different at night with a car headlite or flashlite, then they do in the sun. Or in the shade compared to the sun. Its the same individual with the same health level. Yet it looks different.

The point here is, many of these people, are confusing their needs for the animals needs. An extreme example is, many are from northern dark low lite cities, and they dream of beautiful sunlit beaches with bright lizards by half naked girls. I hope you laugh at that, but its true. So many USE the animals to fit their needs, then call it the animals needs. Cheers

yes, goes without saying but didn't want to start a lesson on Lighting... But from a basis point, "natural coloration" would be an animal's perceived color under natural light (the sun, moom, stars, etc..) in their native habitat on/or in their native substrate at their time of activity during the day or night.
So if the goal is to achieve that for an aesthetic point of view, one can put together the closest spectrums/temps/CRI/luminosity of whatever lamps they can buy to assimilate that indoors coupled with a proper habitat. Obviously with the BD market, it is a different story with crosses and gene mixes therefore the highlighting of the "coloration" is what will sell their dragons and nothing to do with natural coloration as that went out the window with crosses that wouldn't occur naturally.

Also, until we see a picture of an indoor semi-circle contraption that holds a light fixture and rotates around an animal's habitat throughout the day, hooked up to a auto dimmer, indoors, we are really just feeble with re-creation of naturally lit habitats if that is our goal.
So it seems the best achievement we can make is to copy the successes of what has been successfully acheived. Until you see an endorsement by an established record holding breeder, these products are all subjective.

Fascinating exchanges, and would be of great benefit to many reptile keepers, especially lizard keepers, especially Uro and Bearded folks.

"When I take my shifty husbandry and blast a UV bulb at it, I see a bit more improvement. Therefore..."

or

"When I add a SuperBlastJones UV bulb and get my basking temp over 105F, my lizard gets better. Therefore..."

But how many are able to really take the info in these threads, digest it, and APPLY it?

5% maybe?

That is too bad.

There are some good posts here from "in favor of UV folks" (who are not necessarily "pro-UV" folks), which makes for good discussion, but it still seems like Frank is playing chess, while the rest of us are playing checkers...
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Great posts, and I apologize for not scrolling down far enough to see these in the first place.

So what you're saying, Frank, is that naturally your monitors spend much of their time in the darker, cooler areas of the cage, and very little time actually basking? What I've typically seen with healthy reptiles (typically my snakes, which also do not require UVB) is a daily habit of back and forth, with some time spent under the lights, some time spent being inactive on the cool side, and some time spent moving around the cage poking their noses into everything.
Are you saying your monitors don't engage in much basking behavior and spend a greater majority of their time either hunting or sleeping (growing) instead of spending that time warming up?

Simply for production/breeding's sake, using your husbandry UVB is not required, but for display purposes, I think full spectrum lighting helps enormously. Everything, including my drabbest and oldest ball python, looks shinier and has a greater range of color in natural sunlight. I do not see a problem in keeping display animals under full spectrum lighting for aesthetic purposes - UVB doesn't produce much heat anyway, so it would just be an extra value of light, making it marginally brighter and increasing the range of colors reflecting off your monitors.

Maybe I'm not accustomed to healthy monitors, but a lot of the adults I've been seeing look pretty chubby. Remind me of big chubby labrador retrievers, because those things eat EVERYTHING and always end up as fat adults too.
Is that taut belly and sausage leg look how your breeders look too, Frank?

~jen
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"We call them dumb animals, and so they are, for they cannot tell us how they feel, but they do not suffer less because they have no words."
- Anna Sewell (1820-1878)

Whilst i would agree with you on many points here Frank about monitor husbandry and UVB lighting, I have to say that in my own experience you with out a doubt get better colours with UVB lighting, with actual colour being more drab without it.

Take the pic of the ackie below. I have only been able to get that bright yellow to come through with good quality UVB lighting (or natural sunlight). When I take the UVB away over time the colour fades, and when I return them to UVB over time the colour returns 9almost like a sun-tan).I keep many of my ackies without any UVB at all and have no noticable difference in any other aspect. I am yet to see an ackie with colours that can match the ones I keep with UVB exposure.

This concept is well known with many other reptile species E.G. for colouring up beardies.

On another note I must admit those are great looking flavi's. I must ask how far out of the egg they were though. If they are new hatchlings as they look I dont think its fair to use them in an arguement about UVB and colour (unless you are talking baout exposing eggs to UVB)