Reptile & Amphibian Forums

well folks...after that last snake I'm thinking I had better get a few opinions on some of the others that I picked up. I'll label them as what I was told they are, you guys correct them all! lol

Thanks in advance for the time and help guys!

here's a full body shot of the agalma female

albino nelsons

albino nelsons 2

albino ruthvens

normal ruthvens

sinaloan?

normal sinaloan

thayeri

funky thayeri

That should be it.....can't wait to see what all this stuff really is! lol

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Stu
Snakes N Gex.com

poop that didn't work

agalma

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Stu
Snakes N Gex.com

albino nelsons

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Stu
Snakes N Gex.com

albino nelsons 2

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Stu
Snakes N Gex.com

albino ruthvens

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Stu
Snakes N Gex.com

normal ruthvens

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Stu
Snakes N Gex.com

sinaloan?

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Stu
Snakes N Gex.com

sinaloan 2

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Stu
Snakes N Gex.com

thayeri

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Stu
Snakes N Gex.com

weird thayeri

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Stu
Snakes N Gex.com

>>weird thayeri
>>

This weird thayeri is either a striped ruthveni or a striped ruthveni x thayeri cross.
Shannon Brown and others have some similar looking striped ruthveni but this one has a different ground color (buckskin) similar to that of thayeri.

Just my two cents.....
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

>>weird thayeri

Do you know any lineage of this snake?
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

unfortunately no i don't.

the guy that I got them from pretty much gave up on them, cleaning / feeding etc....

the best i got out of him was while he was bagging stuff up he would mutter about this or that. at that point i just wanted them out of his house and paid little attention to what he was saying.

how would i go about proving if they are pure ruthvens or crosses?

thanks for the replies....any help at this point is greatly appreciated
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Stu
Snakes N Gex.com

>>unfortunately no i don't.
>>
>>the guy that I got them from pretty much gave up on them, cleaning / feeding etc....
>>
>>the best i got out of him was while he was bagging stuff up he would mutter about this or that. at that point i just wanted them out of his house and paid little attention to what he was saying.
>>
>>how would i go about proving if they are pure ruthvens or crosses?
>>
>>thanks for the replies....any help at this point is greatly appreciated

I really do not know how you would 'prove' if it is pure or a cross. Ventral scale counts on shed skin could get you closer to the 'actual' subspecies, but that is not an exact science.

If you bred it to a known pure thayeri I wonder what would be the outcome. The 'striped' trait is neither dominant or recessive and has been hard to pin down with the striped ruthveni.

After looking at the picture again there may be a little L.m.mexicana in it as well. It has well defined tri-dot (trifoliate) on its head as most Mex Mex do.

I would call it a 'MIXICANA' rather than a Mexicana for now.
I wonder if Joe Forks or Robert Hansen is lurking....They could possibly make a more educated guess than I.
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

Thanks for the help John

It kind of sucks that they are all mixed up like that. There is a pair, I was really hoping to breed them next year, but not sure if its worth it, not really looking to make "mutts". They really are neat looking either way.
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Stu
Snakes N Gex.com

>>Thanks for the help John
>>
>>It kind of sucks that they are all mixed up like that. There is a pair, I was really hoping to breed them next year, but not sure if its worth it, not really looking to make "mutts". They really are neat looking either way.

I am certainly not trying to discourage you from breeding them. Producing 'mutts' is not the problem. The problem is people trying to sell those 'mutts' as a certain subspecies (I hate using the word pure) when a cross has been made.
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

i understand completely.

if there were a chance that they were not crosses I would be happy to make more because they really are nice looking animals. But since I can't guarantee what the folks that I sell them to will try and sell them as down the road I'd be happier not breeding them and potentially muddying up the genepool.
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Stu
Snakes N Gex.com

OK.....what you got looks like what you said...

all but the weird thayeri...I thought yea till you guys say mex mex maybe???........well.....could go either way....get pics of the belly and chin and ask Shannon Brown (and all of us )...we can help.....and no matter what...a pair is a pair and they are either both thayeri or at least first cousins anyways.....and they are still mexicanna genus....and mutts are the norm in the pet world.....

albino lots of things were made by...adding amel ruthven's,yet people still sell them as amel whatevers and say no more? odd
and amel nelson's were so crossed into sinaloans it doesn't matter anymore.....even in the one book I got...the nelsoni band width is wide and the sinaloan band width is narrower...backwards...as we know it/??...

anyways...all look like the things you say they are....and get pics of the mexaweirdi .....
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.and by the way???STU??? is this the redish haired Stu? that hung out in a ball boy's forums and all and created websites and all???

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>>OK.....what you got looks like what you said...
>>
>>all but the weird thayeri...I thought yea till you guys say mex mex maybe???........well.....could go either way....get pics of the belly and chin and ask Shannon Brown (and all of us )...we can help.....and no matter what...a pair is a pair and they are either both thayeri or at least first cousins anyways.....and they are still mexicanna genus....and mutts are the norm in the pet world.....
>>
>>albino lots of things were made by...adding amel ruthven's,yet people still sell them as amel whatevers and say no more? odd
>>and amel nelson's were so crossed into sinaloans it doesn't matter anymore.....even in the one book I got...the nelsoni band width is wide and the sinaloan band width is narrower...backwards...as we know it/??...
>>
>>anyways...all look like the things you say they are....and get pics of the mexaweirdi .....
>>.
>>.and by the way???STU??? is this the redish haired Stu? that hung out in a ball boy's forums and all and created websites and all??

The "born thayeri or first cousin" quote really concerns me....Maybe that is how those ball pythons got their traits. Hybridizing is not wrong until it is lied about.......
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

hybrids,morphs,crosses,integrades....are lied about everyday...
and not in the ball world....

......mex mex and thayeri are cousins is all I said....and people buy any mixes......greeri,alterna.......throw it all in there....

....I looked around the other forum...can;t find a head that looks mex mex on a thayer's...couple close but not the full clover pattern......

still looks mex mex or thayer's mex.....xxx

........lions and tigers and bears....Oh My!

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Sounds like you got it all figured out.
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

....I know alot...yet will never stop learning or even think I know half of it all....

...I just don't worry anymore if the snakes are pure,crossed,halfbreed freaks or whatever......locality.....more cash...maybe the people lie about the locality?....anyways...

....the color of the thing is not really mex mex it's thayeri..... yet the head pattern is mex mex.....so might be cross?...yet was sold as striped thayer's from the guy's opinion...

...anyways.......I have a bunch of locality stuff.....and I used to have hybrids....not just integrades.....this year , actually she laid 2 days ago...I bred an amel ruthven's to a pyro pyro...6 duds.....last year they didn't even kiss.....this year they actually copulated so...maybe next year I'll get my pyro-ruthven's het amel?.....after next year I will have ruthven's pure.....and a poor pyro with no mate........

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that's me....the one and only! lol

i hear ya about all the crossing, but i'd like to be able to tell folks something solid instead of just a maybe this or that when they go to buy one. i guess i could give them my own name so there wouldn't be any confusion... L. m. stunata maybe? lol

i'll definitely check with shannon and see what he thinks.

thanks!
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Stu
Snakes N Gex.com

Stu, you are an upstanding guy for that!
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Todd Hughes

The first thayeri looks good to me, all the rest are not provable, in my opinion. If you bred the wierd "thayeri", neat as it is, I wouldn't be able to use it in my collection.
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Todd Hughes

Also.....Try posting that pic on the Mexicana subforum and see what response you get over there.
There are many pics of all subspecies of Mexicana to view as well.

Regards,
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

I look and look...could be thayeri...color and all is thayeri...moreso than mex mex...but the head pattern is mex mex....find thayeri with that head pattern and it's thayeri....
as of this minute...it's at least a thayeri x mex mex...LOL...again...ask Shannon....

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